Not sure if I have the correct terminology in my title. Essentially, I'm asking if a Skill that says +1 Fight and "May roll an extra die for each clue token spent on a Fight check" (something like that) works only on Fight checks or if it will work on Combat checks too.

I seem to remember at one point, starting out, we thought it was for both. And at some point I got it in my head that it was only for Fight checks. After all, it says it increases a Fight check, not a Combat check. Perhaps I am mixing them up and it's both? Could it be that the +1 Fight still applies to Combat checks (since Combat is based off your Fight modifier), but the second part about getting an extra die for a clue token is only on a Fight check (since a Combat check is not a Fight check)?

Which is it? The same question goes for Will/Horror, Sneak/Evade, etc.

Thanks!

Yes, a bonus to Fight is also a bonus to Combat. But a bonus to Combat (such as all the weapons) is not a bonus for fight (like for a town encounter that says to make a Fight check).

Basically, all Combat checks are Fight checks, but not all Fight checks are Combat checks. Same with Will - Horror, Lore - Spell, Speed - Movement, and Sneak - Evade. The basic skills also work for the specialty skill, but the bonus to specialty skill does not work for the basic skill.

I hope I don't sound rude, but was there an official response/clarification on this I could look at? While the +1 Fight going towards Combat does make sense (as Combat checks are based off of your Fight score), I have always thought that if something said "you could do this when making a Fight check" that it only applies to that check, and not to all Combat checks as well.

As an example, the skill +1 Fight (whatever it's called). If the +1 Fight applies to Combat checks, but the extra dice with a clue token only applies to Fight checks (not Combat) that seems balanced. Combat checks are made a LOT. I guess I *could* see it with the extra dice going towards a Combat check too, but then it makes this other skill seem REALLY powerful.

Namely, the skill that adds +1 to all your dice for Fight checks (as in, you're essentially blessed on all Fight checks). I have always thought that was just for Fight checks, as they do come up in a lot of encounters and for closing gates. But for that AND all Combat checks? A blessing for those you can never lose? That seems insane!

The very last page of the main rulebook states it:

SPECIAL SKILL CHECKS
There are four special types of skill checks that players should be
aware of: Evade checks, Horror checks, Combat checks, and
Spell checks. Each of these special skill checks use the value of
one of the six basic skills. Bonuses to the skill that a special
check uses apply to the special check as well. However, bonuses
to special checks cannot be used when making normal checks.

Evade checks are based on Sneak (see “Evading Monsters”, pg. 13).
Combat checks are based on Fight (see “Fight”, pg. 14).
Horror checks are based on Will (see “Horror Check”, pg. 14).
Spell checks are based on Lore (see “Casting Spells”, pg. 15).

And yes, the skills that boost fight or combat are often more desired then the ones that boost lore or spell checks, but that's just the way the random skills work. And the skill that adds 1 to all dice (Grapple) is definitely a great skill to have.

All that quote tells me is that 'each of these special skill checks use the value of one of the six basic skills'. So with my +1 Fight example, the +1 would indeed add one die to both the Fight and Combat checks. That quote does not indicate, however, that if a card says "when you make a Fight check" you can also use it when you make a Combat check.

As far as I've read, Fight checks and Combat checks are different checks. A Fight check and a Combat check are equal to your Fight skill + relevant modifiers, but both are still different Skill checks in and of themselves. I haven't seen anything that says differently. After all, if you take a card that says "You may roll an extra die when spending a clue token to add dice to a Fight check" (not exact text) and allow it to work for a Combat check too, then what about an Encounter? "Make a Fight (-1) check to beat up the thugs or ..." . By that same logic, you are saying I could then make a Combat check here. Similarly, what about for closing a gate? "Make a Fight or a Lore check to..." so could I make a Combat or a Spell check?

DoomTurtle said:

Welcome to the Carnival, Karui Kage!

Using specific terms to replace the generic ones:

Bonuses to Fight apply to Combat Checks as well. However, bonuses to Combat Checks cannot be used when making Fight Checks.
Bonuses to Sneak apply to Evade Checks as well. However, bonuses to Evade Checks cannot be used when making Sneak Checks.
Bonuses to Lore apply to Spell Checks as well. However, bonuses to Spell Checks cannot be used when making Lore Checks.
Bonuses to Will apply to Horror Checks as well. However, bonuses to Horror Checks cannot be used when making Will Checks.

This applies to any check of those types in any situation at any time. A Horror and Combat Check during a "Monster Appears" Encounter can use Will and Fight bonuses respectively, but a Fight or Lore Check to close a Gate cannot use any Combat or Spell Check bonuses.

Heh, I'm trying to be clear without sounding like a pompous ass. Consider this: you have only 6 Skills. There is no Skill Check possible without using one of those Skills. Just because they call it a Combat Check doesn't mean it isn't a Fight Check, because it is. You ARE rolling using your Fight Skill.

Did that help?

jgt7771 said:

I understand all of that. My question is, if something tells me that I get X when making a Fight check, or to make a Fight check in an encounter, am I allowed to make a Combat check instead? As far as I've seen, you cannot. Yes, a bonus to a Fight check applies to a Combat check. Bonuses to Combat checks are not allowed when making Fight checks. I get that.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding DoomTurtle and he has been agreeing with me. Let me clarify exactly what I believe is the way to go.

+X to Fight, Will, Sneak, etc. ALSO gives +X to Combat, Horror, Evade, etc.

+X to Combat, Horror, Evade, etc. DOES NOT give +X to Fight, Will, Sneak, etc.

A card that says "You get X when you make a Fight check" or "Make a Fight (-1) check" does NOT allow you to make a Combat check in place of the Fight check. (This is the one thing that I thought DoomTurtle was disagreeing with me on, but re-reading his responses I might be wrong).

In short, I totally understand the +X bonuses and how they work. The main question is the Checks. The skill card that gives +1 Fight. It also gives an extra die per clue token spent on a Fight check. Is that just for Fight, or also for Combat checks? I understand that the +1 Fight itself applies to Combat checks as well, I am only curious now about the 'extra die per clue token' part.

Thank you both for putting up with my questions

Karui_Kage said:

AHA! No, you cannot change the nature of the Check. If the card says Fight Check, it means Fight Check. You cannot call it a Combat Check, or make a Combat Check in place of that Fight Check.

Karui_Kage said:

Correct. It does NOT allow you to make a Combat Check.

Karui_Kage said:

Both. It will give you two dice per clue to Fight Checks, and because Combat Checks are still Fight Checks, it will add the dice to them as well. But a gun that gives +4 to Combat Checks will not help you in a Fight (-X) Check.

Karui_Kage said:

Thank you both for putting up with my questions

Oh, not at all. Us veteran grognards live for this stuff. Have we finally banged out any bent nails on this one?

Simple as pie

jgt7771 said:

I guess this is the part I still am perplexed about. Why does it add dice to both checks? The text says it only adds them to Fight checks. Why is it also to Combat checks here, but the text is not changeable in other instances?

I understand that +X Fight applies to Combat, that is increasing the base number. But when making a Fight *check*, I don't think you can substitute Combat in there.

Really, what is the difference between these two:

"When rolling a Fight check, you may add an extra die per clue token spent."

and

"When closing a gate, roll a Fight or a Lore check."

So you can use the first text with Combat checks as well, but you can't do it on the second one?

Why?

Karui_Kage said:

Because a Combat Check is a Fight Check, but a Fight Check is not a Combat Check.

Also you're forgetting this one line from the quoted rules above: "Bonuses to the skill that a special check uses apply to the special check as well."

Since +1 Fight and adding an extra die when using clues is a Bonus to the Fight Skill, you also get the bonus to the special check (in this case combat) as well.

johnwatersfan said:

While I agree one is a bonus to the Fight skill, the other is not. That particular Skill essentially grants two abilities, one of which I believe goes to Combat, the other doesn't.

I'll make this simple. What is the difference between these three lines of text?

"When spending clue tokens to add dice to a Fight check, add one bonus die."

"When attempting to close an open gate, make a successful Fight or Lore check."

"When rolling a Fight check, treat dice as if they were +1 value higher (IE: succeed on a 4, 5, or 6)"

If one of these also applies to Combat checks, shouldn't all? If I'm able to change the first line to also say:

"When spending clue tokens to add dice to a Combat check, add one bonus die."

then why can't I change the second one to say:

"When attempting to close an open gate, make a successful Combat or Spell check."

My biggest issue is that word 'check'. If some Ally or Skill says +1 Fight or +2 Lore or whatever, awesome. Those skills go up, and the skills based off of them go up. But when a Skill or Event or something says that you need to make a Fight or Lore *check* to use it, then that seems to imply that they don't mean a Combat or a Spell check as well, they just mean a *base* check. Which plenty of encounters and some GOOs have you make (so it's still very useful).

Sorry if I seem stubborn on this, I just haven't seen a convincing argument yet.

Karui_Kage said:

Alright, it adds dice to both checks, because as we mentioned, a Combat check is a special type of a Fight check. So any bonus to any Fight check also applies to a Combat check. That is how the bonuses work. It is not a matter of 'substituting' the Combat check for the Fight check when applying bonuses. For all intents and purposes, a Combat Check IS a Fight check.

But when it comes to making checks, since Combat check is a SPECIAL type of Fight check, you need to be specified when to use it. In most cases, the only things that add a Combat bonus are weapons and spells. Since these are special cards for a specific purpose (fighting monsters), they don't want you gaining the bonuses from them for every Fight check you need to make.

Say you draw an Arkham Encounter card for Velma's Diner, and it says "The big guy at the bar wants to arm wrestle you. Make a Fight -2 check to beat him and win $5, otherwise he shoves you out to the street". So in this case, you are using your fight skill as a general strength score. This is not a Combat check, because you are not fighting the guy, you are not going to use the sword of death on him, or launch a grenade at him, it is just a simple fight check. There are a few encounters where you will make a Combat check, but that is mostly reserved for regular monster fighting.

And the same goes for the other special checks. Horror and Evade checks will usually only apply to fighting (or avoiding) monsters. So things that give you a bonus to those special checks will not apply to most other situations when making a basic skill check. That is why you can't just substitute them. The game will specifically let you know when the special version is being made. Spell checks are used for all types of spells and not just when fighting a monster. But Lore is mostly used as a basis for knowledge, so an encounter that asks for a Lore check will not benefit from an item that gives you a bonus to casting a spell.

I hope I explained that well enough. Basically other than casting spells or fighting a monster, you cannot make the special type of check unless specifically told to do so. And that is the only time the cards that affect those special checks will come into play.

DoomTurtle said:

I really don't dispute any of that, though I think my point may not be coming across. The exact skill looks like this:

"+1 Fight

When spending clue tokens to add dice to a Fight check, you may add one extra die."

To me, there are two parts to this. One is the +1 Fight. We've covered this, it applies to Fight checks and Combat checks because it increases the base skill.

The second part specifies *to a Fight check*. Just like you said when an encounter makes a Fight check, you don't use Combat, I don't think that second part applies to Combat checks as well. My belief is that the entire skill increases the amount of dice for Fight and Combat by 1, but only gives you 2 dice per clue token to Fight checks, not Combat checks too.

I am curious, do you think the same applies to the Skill card that lets you be 'blessed' for Fight checks? Something that reads like "When making a Fight check, add +1 to each die to determine successes (assuming no other modifiers, you will succeed on a 4, 5, or 6)". Should that work with Combat checks too?

I dunno. I'm just not seeing it.

Huh, interesting, I hadn't ever thought of it like that. I don't know of a ruling that addresses this exact interpretation, but the strongest textual support for what the others are saying seems to be on p. 13:

Starting at the very end of the previous page it lists each of the skills and talks about how, for example, the Fight skill is used for Combat checks, etc, although this is ambiguous as to whether Combat is merely based on the value of the Fight skill or whether a Combat check actually is a Fight check, with all the accompanying features...

however in the middle of the page it goes on to say "for example, Evade checks are a special type of Sneak check," which seems to imply (to me, anyways) that clue-spending or rerolling or whatever other benefits (or penalties) apply to the base check also apply to the special check.

subochre said:

Your middle section I agree with. The Fight skill is used for Combat checks. It is also used for Fight checks. It remains to be seen whether or not a Combat check qualifies for something that says "When making a Fight check". The only bit in the rules that really comments on this doesn't use the word Check, but the word Skill.

If it said "Your Fight check is used for Combat check" then we'd have a different thing. As it is, this is what I see:

Fight Skill + Other Modifiers = Fight Check

Fight Skill + Combat Modifiers + Other Modifiers = Combat Check

Two similar, but different checks. If something asks me to make a Fight check, then I don't make a Combat check, I make a Fight check. Similarly, if something triggers when I make a Fight check, it shouldn't trigger when I make a Combat check, just a Fight check.

A Combat check is a special Fight check. Anything that adds to Fight also adds to Combat. Any exceptions have to be printed on the card itself.

The same holds true for:

Will / Horror
Lore / Spell
Sneak / Evade

Note the Makeup Kit item from the Kingsport expansion:

Bonus: +1 to Will checks (but not Horror checks)

The wording here implies that without the parenthetical clause, a bonus to a Will check also applies to Horror checks.

If you were a professor of mathematics, then you should be pretty good even in arithmetics. If you have an item giving you a bonus to your arithmetics skill, you won't use it for solving a Lebegue integral. But if you have something boosting ALL your maths ability, then, whichever question I might ask you, your knowledge will be influenced by that "something".

Combat is not a different skill. It's a special fight check. So, anything boosting your fight, also boosts your combat (you are more effective, precise, etc). If you have something allowing you to roll extra dice for fight, then combat, which is a specialized check of fight, is still influenced by that. And so on.

Example: fight: you kick your opponent's back until he's gone. If you know something about human anathomy, you'll receive a bonus to the check, because you know which points you have to hit in order to win quicker / make your attacks more effective. With a Derringer in your hand, you'll be much more effective, but you don't forget your knowledge (in the first case, you're trying to hit your opponent's eye with your thumb, in the second one with your bullet: your knowledge of anathomy allows you in both cases to hit the right spot)

Simply, if Combat is a specialized Fight check, then it is a skill check based on Fight + some bonuses. Being based on Fight, everything influecing Fight also influences your Combat

Another example: the injury Injured arm (http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Injured_Arm): one of your arms is injured, and you cannot spend more than 2 clue tokens for adding dice to any Fight check. Why this shouldn't influence even your combat? You have an injured arm, but when in combat with a Dhole, you forget your suffering and go straight ahead beating him as if nothing had happened?

Tibs said:

Again, I fully understand that things which *add* or *subtract* to Fight also effect Combat. I am not talking about that. I'm talking about when something says "when making a Fight check" and similar words.

Julia said:

So wrestle (http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Wrestle) should also function once per Combat check, and Grapple (http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Grapple) should work for combat checks as well?

I guess my biggest thing is I don't see where you're getting this from the rules. I see where it says that Combat checks are based off the Fight skill (and summarily, bonuses or penalties to it affect Combat), but I am not seeing anywhere that says a non-numeric benefit to a Fight check (as with the above cards) also benefits a Combat check. Could someone point that out for me?

DoomTurtle said:

This that I already stated from the rulebook says it. It says "Bonuses to the skill that a special check uses apply to the special check as well". It doesn't make any reference to numerical or non-numerical bonuses. It doesn't reference adding extra dice, adding to the number on the dice, using clue tokens, all it says is a bonus to the base skill applies to the special skill as well. So why would you think a non-numeric bonus wouldn't apply?

Oh, I see. Well, again, a Combat check is a Fight check. Anything that takes effect on a Fight check also takes effect on a Combat check. The reverse is not true. The only thing that really distinguishes a Combat check is the use of items that only lend bonuses to Combat checks. That, and that's the way you defeat monsters; the check to defeat them is automatically a Combat check without being explicitly stated on the monster chit.

That's all you should need to know.

DoomTurtle said:

Hmm. I suppose it is because I don't see "When you spend clue tokens to add dice to a Fight check, get one bonus die" as a bonus. It seems more as if you're fulfilling a condition. Just like when a card asks you to make a Fight check, you can't say "well my Combat is better, and it IS a type of Fight check, so I can make that right?"

I can see a little bit better where you're coming from though. I'm still not 100% solid on it, and an official response would be great, but I'll stop arguing about it. Thanks everyone for the answers.