from france

well i said it p 130 ine 6 to 9. and page 135 last line for the weight of the power pack. so whe have power fits 13kg and the power pack 25 for a total of 38kg. power fist don't use amo granted but they require external energy source whitch is not inclunding in the weight of the power fist.

for the hellguns p118 it is a specific powerpack with a specific wheigth so it is not a good example plus it is still external (cables) as shown of pictures and minis. if you want a reduced weight you will have to use standart cell. but you will have far less shots. if you want more shots with more pucn you cant use a back pack powerpack and then you get again a 25kg problem.

the 8 spider said:

Why do you say that the weight isn't included ?

Telling people that they need to look up two different weights for the one item is an annoyance at best, so it would be stupid to do that without good reason. Hellguns have a good reason (you may want to carry more than one clip of ammo). What reason would FFG have to separate the weight of the power fist from its power supply when one power fist is only every used with one power supply ?

Why do you think that the ammo backpack is the correct weight to use when it specifically lists what it can be used with and power fists are not on that list ?

Why do you pick the ammo backpack in Rogue Trader over the lighter ammo backpack in Ascension ?

If you have to add on the weight of the backpack, why is the power fist so much heavier than other power weapons ?

The Inquisitors Handbook also has a power fist, but no ammo backpack. The Inquisitors Handbook was released before Rogue Trader. So if the weight of the power supply is separate, how could someone have calculated the total when IH was released ?

To answer this question you simply need to tell me how you would calculate the total weight of a power fist using only the Inquisitors Handbook, the DH errata, and any official publications released before them.

If you can not do this, yet still think the backpack weight must be included, then it means that the power fist in IH has a very unique quality: It is the only weapon that wasn't released with all the information needed to use it.

Why do you say that the weight isn't included?

The entry implies that the Power Fist is designed for Power Armor use and needs an extra part to function without the PA.

What reason would FFG have to separate the weight of the power fist from its power supply when one power fist is only every used with one power supply?

As above Power Fists are designed to be used with Power Armor, as such they would not normaly include a power supply.

Why do you think that the ammo backpack is the correct weight to use when it specifically lists what it can be used with and power fists are not on that list?

It is a perfectly reasonable item to use for a Power Fist power supply.

Why do you pick the ammo backpack in Rogue Trader over the lighter ammo backpack in Ascension?

We are in the Rogue Trader forum and not the Dark Heresy forum. Not everyone buys all the books for multiple product lines, and not everyone plays both games. As a GM of a RT game, unless I offer up a DH book or item, all equipment comes out of the RT line.

If you have to add on the weight of the backpack, why is the power fist so much heavier than other power weapons?

Have you taken a look at a Power Fist? They are huge and bulky and do a heck of a lot more damage than all the other power weapons.

The Inquisitors Handbook also has a power fist, but no ammo backpack. The Inquisitors Handbook was released before Rogue Trader. So if the weight of the power supply is separate, how could someone have calculated the total when IH was released?

To answer this question you simply need to tell me how you would calculate the total weight of a power fist using only the Inquisitors Handbook, the DH errata, and any official publications released before them.

If you can not do this, yet still think the backpack weight must be included, then it means that the power fist in IH has a very unique quality: It is the only weapon that wasn't released with all the information needed to use it.

Again, not Rogue Trader. But I would use the ammo Backpack for it also, the heavy one.

from france

isuncertainwho clearly demonstre the same thing power fist are made to use with power amor it is writen in the book. hey i give the page what ohter help is needed?

you said.

Telling people that they need to look up two different weights for the one item is an annoyance at best, so it would be stupid to do that without good reason. Hellguns have a good reason (you may want to carry more than one clip of ammo).

it s annoying? yes and so what. as long as it is two seperates items they have two separates weight. but because the work together you must add weight.

column show the wieght of the weapons and the weight of the ammo/cells. you always have to add both to have the good weight.

still not convince? lasguns has is weight his cell has his weight even if negligeable. once your celles exausted you can trow it and use your lasguns as a club. a club lighter now.

and for the hellguns i thought it was clear.

from france

so you wanted a dh demonstration? okay p180 of the inquisitor handbook. "power fists are mor e common as part of power armour suits where the massive power requirements can be met by integral energy packs, but some elite imperial force and high ranking officers also use them with the aid of backpack power sources"

so again in dh it is demonstrates that unless you use a power armour you need a backpack power sources. you could argue that in dh the weight of the back pack is not said. you are wright. it was a common complain for a long momement. in one articles in dth dh forum "critics on weapons and equipements" people explain that if hellguns were better than standard lasguns they have a probleme because no one new the weight of the power pack.

the power fist it is the same probleme.

when rt came out the problem was solve it gives the weight of the power back pack. and contrary to other equippments which have a equivalent in dh you can use it.

so in this case it should be 25+12 instead of 13+25 it hardly change thing.

After this forum ate my post, I decided to give up and ask FFG for their opinion on the matter. First, my question:

Does the weight listed for a Power Fist (13kg) in the Melee Weapon table include the power supply ?

Over in this thread I have got into an argument with someone about the weight of a Power Fist: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=161&efcid=3&efidt=345557&efpag=0

I'm saying that the 13kg weight is the full weight of the weapon. Others are saying that the 13kg only counts the fist part and that the power supply weighs extra.

Now the reply I received:

Hi <name removed>,

The 13 kg is just for the fist, actually, because if you're wearing power armour the fist can be plugged into the power armour's power supply without any degraded effectiveness.

If you need the weight for a backpack power source, the 10 kg power source for the hellguns should do nicely.

Sam Stewart
RPG Designer
Fantasy Flight Games

Since this isn't what I was working with, my above calculations are wrong.

- 2x Power Fist at 13kg each.

- 2x power supply at 10kg each.

- Best Quality Storm Trooper Carapace at 7.5kg.

- Common quality synthetic muscle grafts.

That brings us to 53.5kg. TB+SB of 8 gives a carry capacity of 56kg, but that only leaves 2.5kg for other equipment. So I'll use SB+TB of 9 (67kg) which gives 13.5kg of spare carrying capacity. The muscle grafts mean that a total of 8 must come from the base characteristics, meaning 40 for each. That can be met at character creation from any homeworld.

from france

nobody hate you. not me anyway. i m just citing the book. and the answer give it to you is merely an asmwer base oninterpretation.

teh one who answer is not the god of rt the book are the gods are . after that you do your own interpretation.

so let s says dans you can use a hellguns power cell. where do you put it? it it is made for a ? hellguns meaning that it is not adapted for a powerfist so the batterie will be spend far more quickly.

where is the problems? well simple int dh a hell gun that use a standard cell use half or a quarter shot from hit. there is not such precision for hellguns cell use by a power fist.

son as long can you use it ? 1d5 h like a civilian PA or half the shot of a hellgun?

see my point? no well in this case we ve to agree to disagree.

for me it is use with a PA or only one power fist.

What is to prevent you running two power fists off one large backpack? They only release energy when you hit things, so you will have the same number of "hits" between the two fists.

The problem would really be finding someone skilled enough to modify these ancient relics ... do you really want to hand over a powerfist to any old tech and risk getting it back in pieces? Or worse yet have it explode when you punch something as "upgrade" wasn't done quite right and the powerfield interacts with the weapons ammo...

Then there would also be reloading... you might have to take the fists off to reload those bolt pistols...

What happens if the weapon jams?

There could be lots of amusement for the group if this is done correctly...

PlasmaBomb said:

Most power weapons generate a constant field while turned on, power fists included. It's only Thunder Hammers that discharge their energy upon the moment of impact.

@the8spider

t eh one who answer is not the god of rt the book are the gods are . after that you do your own interpretation.

"The one who answered" happened to be one of the people who wrote the book.

so let s says dans you can use a hellguns power cell. where do you put it? it it is made for a ? hellguns meaning that it is not adapted for a powerfist so the batterie will be spend far more quickly.

where is the problems? well simple int dh a hell gun that use a standard cell use half or a quarter shot from hit. there is not such precision for hellguns cell use by a power fist.

son as long can you use it ? 1d5 h like a civilian PA or half the shot of a hellgun?

Um... exactly where is the problem? Sam indicated that the official Power Fist Backpack just happened to have the same weight stat as the hellgun backpack. Other than that, the power fist's stats remain unchanged, meaning it can be used for a virtually unlimited time since it doesn't specify any limit - just like any other power weapon.

for me it is use with a PA or only one power fist.

That's fine for you, but I can't see an objective reason for it. If the power armour is capable of supporting two power fists, why shouldn't two battery packs (and 20kg is really not that much to be worn on the back) be able to do so?

from france

i know but in dh errata people who wrote the erratta made mistake and corrected them after. this is why there have been erratat 2 and three after all. i don't think that in rt they can escape it.

"The one who answered" happened to be one of the people who wrote the book.

Um... exactly where is the problem? Sam indicated that the official Power Fist Backpack just happened to have the same weight stat as the hellgun backpack. Other than that, the power fist's stats remain unchanged, meaning it can be used for a virtually unlimited time since it doesn't specify any limit - just like any other power weapon.

really ? pages? lines? because a power pack is 25kg a hellguns pack is 10 kg not the same thing. so unless i miss it i don't see any specific power pack for a power fist. so for me it can 't work with the same autonomy.

anyway.this is purely technicall and i prefer fluff and i never seen in the fluff such thing that a man use two power fist.

oh can we agree that we disagree?

really ? pages? lines? because a power pack is 25kg a hellguns pack is 10 kg not the same thing. so unless i miss it i don't see any specific power pack for a power fist. so for me it can 't work with the same autonomy.

Did you not read Sam's reply? He wrote the darn book. It doesn't get more official than that - a power pack capable of supporting a power fist weighs 10 kg.

oh can we agree that we disagree?

I'd agree to disagree if there wasn't a straight answer clarifying the whole issue from the mouth (well... fingers) of the designer.

from france

it is not so much a straight answer; he say "should". but okay have it your way. i am usually not stuborn. so i will wait for a errata on the matter.

until that i will cling to my opinion. and again appart from the technical aspect for me it doesn't fill in the fluff.

any way it was a pleasant topics remind me the one about the heavy stubber.

still cordially

from france

oh i forget just to cool down there was absolutely no agressivity in my last post.

the 8 spider said:

Orrus Spyrers have two power fists. They do not wear power armour.

It is uncommon, but not at all unheard of.

from france

orrus has a power amor like and power fist like not exactly the same but function as such (tau codex firts edition at the end of the book, fanatics magazine issue 2 p10 ). but it is alright i agree that we can have differents opinion .

DarknessEternal said:

They do, however, wear extremely sophisticated armour of unknown technological origin, which automatically adapts and improves itself as the wearer gains in prowess... I think it's safe to assume that there's a decent power supply in there for the various weapons and systems.

I think that even in the current iteration of the Imperial Guard in the 40k wargame you can give two power fists to a Lord Commissar or Company commander - neither of whom would normally have power armour without further upgrades.

That said I don't think it is necessarily a very good use of points when you could instead buy 6 fully equipped imperial guardsmen for the same cost.

Equally the second power fist is a relatively poor choice in the Rogue Trader ruleset. You are probably better off with a Mordian power sword in the off-hand if you are so rich. That way you can unleash parries and counterattacks on your enemies in their turns while you power fist their heads in yours.

However 40k is all about style and if a player feels he needs to rock twin power fists I say let the man rock (once he does the maths on his encumbrance....).

Q: how does one 'use the facilities' while so armed?

A: Carefully.

I think the whole 2-powerfist-story runs about the damage/round, or the damage/attack. If you have 1 poerfist with forearm, or 2 fist, forearm on both of its, you can DO a huge DAM/round. But, you cannot keep in your hand a nice ranged weapon. It is clear that you have to get the Two weapon talent both the meele and the ranged to puch AND shoot, and ambidextrous, and maybe the Gunslinger. And a lot of talents to the meele part.

But I suggest a more leathal combo, and you don't need one more attack during your round.

Über-combo:

You have 2 hands You need only Two weapon - Ranged, Ambidextrous and Gunslinger.

You go with 2 forearm mounted Mirco Larn Cutter (ITS.) for the close/meele range. Its stats: Range: 3,5 m; Dam: 4d10+4 Tearing; Pen: 8. If you compared it to the powerfist: PF has ca. 11+(SBx2) Dam - with Sincmuscle your SB is 10, so - total average Dam of 31, Pen 9, and you should boost your WS and BS to be effective with forearm mounting, and you cannot parry! You have to boost your WS - to hit, BS - to shoot, Strength - to Dam bonus, Toughness - to "Armor", Agility - to Dodge, because you cannot parry.

With the Micro- Larns you can hold in your hand 2 pistols to range fight, or one burtal basic or - if you are really cool - a heavy weapon. So you can do a nice DAM in ranged fights (With PFs you cannot hold a gun), and in close combat with the larns you can inflict 4d10+4 Pen 8 - ca. 29 DAM. If you compare it with the PF, the big deal is Rightous Fury! Because you have five dices with the Larns (Tearing)! In every two attack you have a RF dice. I think its very nice, and very leathal. and you should boost BS, Toughness and Agility. So you have more precious XP to munchkinisation

As summ: Micro-Larns give you a nicer "meele" weapon IMO - Ok, you don't have 3-4 or 5 meele attak, but you have a higher BS, because WS is not important to you.

Final words: If you prefer a bigger clip size, use the Eldar Deathspinner. Micro and Forearm E. DS: Range: 7m; Dam: 4d10+3 Tearing (ca. 28 + RF); Pen 2, Reliable, Blast (2). It has a clip of 30 compared to the Larns clip of 4. But you don't wear a PF, you you can Reload

Final "tought": I don't want to spar, the PF is much cooler, than anything else

going back to the original question, weather you can use a power fist and arm mounted gun in one round, I would say yes. firstly needing altering, and creating a "twin-linked" weapon mounted power fist, the weapon set to fire when the punch lands, automatic hit if punch hits, dealing normal twin-linked (or whatever the trait is for linking two different weapons. combi?) damage.

as for dual weilding power fists without power armor, I would rule the backpack stated by the ffg dude, but for two fists, I'd make the pack weight 1.5 as much or so. not quite needing two packs but still more than a single.

also myself, I would prefer one hand having a powerfist/weapon mount and the other having a super awesome sword for parrying. dual weilding PFs seems more of a waste of being able to use your hands more than a weight problem to me

Just reading and if it's true that you can get two power fist and a large backpack, is therre any of you trying to fight with a real sword more than 15 minutes? What to say about heavy medieval weapon from 10 to 15 kg?

Carriyng object is something, fight with them is not the same.

After 10 minutes of swordmanship even with light blade as katana or cavalery saber your arm is going to hurt, with 12kg on each of your fist you would not be even capable to touch your nose after 10 minutes of fight.

You are a killing machine close to Broke Lesnar, HHH, batista, Kane, Undertaker, André or big show maybe you could fight for 30 minutes with those 44kg (more or less 90 lbs) attach to you but no more.

Have a try, take sand bags 5 kg each and attach them to your arm, them punch in the void for 2 minutes, how are your arms? If you are a martial artist or a sport practionner do it 5 minutes.

Shadowboxing is quite taxing even bare hand, I will never be able to do it with two powerfist and a large backpack. And for the numbers I'm 6'7" and 210lbs or 1m95 and 100kg, and i'm also a martial art practionner.

From the dawn of tabletop RPGs, weapon weights have been grossly distorted, with the few exceptions often being portrayed as "exotic" or somehow special. You can usually just halve everything across the board, except for the "exotics" like katanas which, while they oughta be a few grams heavier, are usually listed about right due to, again, distorted views on all of this.

In this case, I'm relatively certain that FFG has used the standard basic weapon weight ranges found in all sorts of games, but did so without considering that they're usually expressed in pounds due to americans writing it. They put Kg at the top of the table instead and that was that. It does, however, appear that this is just a melee issue: A Lasgun, at 4kg, is just a little heavier [and a whole lot more resilient] than, modern Assault Rifles, and about on par with older ones like the AK-47 [

Problem as you've seen is: A kilogram is just a few grams over 2.2 pounds. A Lasgun is over nine pounds once its got a power-pack in there.

Now, granted, Warhammer, particularly imperial tech, is rather big on "we are archaic and huge and you can run a tank over this gun", but that would explain the weights if they were in pounds… not really more than that. Backpack's not on your arms and you' re probably having most of the mass driven by your power-armor though, which at least helps a bit.

If you are wearing an energetic armour then dual wierlding of powerfist will not be a problem, firstly because the power is given by the armour and then you don't any power source, secondly because the artificial muscle incorporated in the armour balancing the weight of the weapon.

But as far as I was reading that was not the case.

And even if the power source isn't on your arms let me tell you that 20 kg (45 lbs) on your back will make you life in combat real difficult.

With range weapon the problem isn't that important, but in cllose combat it will be much harder to endure.

Another option is creating a single stat bar for the combined weapon.

Normal Power fist would be 2d10 E, Pen 9, Unwieldy if I'm correct with double SB, with the added boltpistol discharge it could be something like.

2d10+5 X, Pen 9, Unwieldy, Tearing, just add a serious mishap when the character fumbles like with the eviscerator.