Suppressing fire and pinning

By wolph42, in Dark Heresy

Posted at

now that I've figured out that you can edit the first post I'll update this one as well. I have published this rule in the house-rule section. But this is a good place for discussion anyway.

Here the UPDATED version:

Suppressing fire House Ruling

Meaning of signs
- = RAW
+ = Not explicitly stated in the RAW, but implicitly derived
* = House ruling
if rules are mixed they start in line with (-),(*) or (+)

Suppressing fire:
Conditions/consequences:
- must be in full auto burst
- weapon jams on 94 or higher. If the weapon is unreliable: on 91 or higher

Effected are a
- The suppressing zone (SF zone) is short range and angle of 45 degrees
-* The kill-zone is (-)short (*)AND normal range and angle of 45 degrees

Suppresor:
- SF BS penalty is -20
+ all other modifiers applicable for the situation, aplly. E.g blinded, higher ground, size opponent, terrain, sight etc.
+* The only exceptions to these are (+)the short range bonus and (*)the prone target penalty
- If one or more (every 2DoS, upto max amount of the fire rate of the used weapon) hits are made, they are randomly spread over EVERYONE in the kill zone (cover or not). Cover is taken into account according to its rules.
* If one or more targets are prone, than the chances they're hit (in the random distribution) are halved. Example npcs a, b, c and d, a and b are in cover, c and d are prone then on a D6 roll: 1-2 =a; 3-4 =b; 5=c and 6=d. Everyone else shooting at the prone target get the standard -10BS
* if ALL targets are prone, the prone target penalty (-10 BS) applies.

Suppressee:
* As long as the SF lasts, everyone within the SF-zone must succeed a WP test at the beginning of each of his/her turn, or be pinned.
* The FIRST time you make this test during this combat you get a -20 penalty on your WP
+ If your 'pinned' you must succeed a WP test at the beginning of each of your turns, or your will still be pinned that round. If no one is shooting at you, meaning that you have to be at least outside of the kill-zone or the SF has stopped, you get a +30 bonus to your WP check. Once you succeed the check you are no longer pinned.
- close combat ignores pinning effect (auto success)

When pinned:
- you must either move to cover or out of SF zone (away from the suppressor)
+ any BS attack you make are at -20 penalty, all applicable modifiers for the situation apply, so you do get +10 BS if you're in short range
- while in cover you must remain in cover. You may move (only a half action) but only if you can remain in cover during your entire move
-pinnend charachters may only take half actions.
*if you are NOT in cover AND inside the kill zone then despite the 'half actions only rule' you may make a full action move. You may however not charge (anyone) or run. [optional: target must make agility test, +10 if half move, -10 if full move. In fail, target falls prone

Posted at

wolph42 said:

Last session one of my players used suppressing fire and there was a discussion about the interpretation of the rules. I've read them a couple of times and this is what I make of them. I'm curious what you think of it, plz shoot:

Suppressing fire:
Pin checks:
- At the end of the turn of the 'Suppressor' everyone within killzone must succeed a WP check -20 or be pinned as soon as his turn starts
- At end of each consecutive turn everyone (pinned or not) must succeed a normal WP check at the end of his turn or be pinned his next round
- As soon as one is either out of the kill-zone or the suppressing fire has stopped, everyone who is still pinned must succeed a WP +30 roll at the end of his turn or remain pinned. This is repeated every round until a succesfull WP + 30 check is made.
- close combat ignores pinning effect

When pinned:
- you must either move to cover or out of pinning area
- any BS attack you make are at -20 penalty, you do not get short range bonus (as you are in short range)
- while in cover you must remain in cover. You may move but only if you can remain in cover during your entire move
- pinnend charachters may only take half actions. Exception: if you are NOT in cover AND inside the kill zone, you can use a 2 half actions action to move (not run, not charge, only move)

Hits
- If one or more (every 2DoS, upto max amount of the fire rate of the used weapon) hits are made, they are randomly spread over EVERYONE in the kill zone (cover or not). Cover is taken into account according to its rules.
- weapon jams on 94 or higher. If the weapon is unreliable: on 91 or higher

The only addition I made (cause it seemed logic) is the 'exception'.

Well I think you got the rules mostly (you don't mention it all though). This post is probably better in the House-Rule forum for feedback on that.

Here is SF step by step:

Suppressive fire: -20 BS full action attack (replaces bonus for full-auto). Range modifiers apply, which is usually +10 BS as short range is max range for SF.Every 2 DoS nets and extra hit. and all hits are divided between creatures in the "killzone".

Creatures in the area makes Pinning tests at -20 (WP). Those Pinned are limited to half-actions, must seek cover or go prone on their turn, fires at -20 BS. All range modifiers applies AFAIK, and even if SF happens at short range for the firer, the pinned enemy isn't necessarily at short range when he shoots. I.E range is subjective to weapon used ;)

Can't really remember if the next Pinning test is made at the start or end of the Pinned creature's turn, but in any case if you fail the first test you will be Pinned for 1 rounds before being able to make a new test. And yes if outside Kill Zone or SF stops you get a +30 WP to break the Pinning. As long as you stick to one it doesen't matter as the outcome us the same. Having pinning test at end of round makes it a bit more predictable for the enemy though (if you tell the players they stop being pinned).

As for your house-rule (exception) I can understand your rationale, but remember the half action represents time spent throwing oneself down, running while crouching, and generally trying to ward off projectiles with "hands." Remember how the guys the A-Team suppress act... they don't run away at full speed exactly.

On the other hand AB meters per turn is a very low, but so is movement in this game in general except for the extremely agile. In other games a human can walk 10 meters in 3 seconds (almost an half-action), or run at least 25 meters in the same time. Now 3m/turn isn't unrealistic for a human walking at a leisurely pace, but for someone jogging, stopping for a second to shoot, and jogging on, it's slow. In any case the system already exaggerates the time it takes to point a gun at someone and fire it, and underrates the cyclic rate of semi- and fully automatic weapons. Double-move might be a bit much considering non-pinned characters can't keep up with them and still fire a round or two.

Just my 3 cents.

Posted at

Yes you're right that this should have been in the 'rules' section of this forum. I spotted that after I submitted this question.

Thanks for the reflection. So to point out the differences and confirm some points:

  1. the -20 penalty for the suppressor is -20 (he does not gain +10 short range bonus as he will per definition fire in short range)
  2. the -20 penalty for the suppressee can be -10 depending on the range of the weapon, i.o.w. he can use the short range modifier if hes in short range
  3. concerning move for half action or full action, your not entirely clear on this but I get the feeling you more or less agree. You can use full move, that is 2xAB, you cannot run or charge.
  4. When pinned you either run for cover or go prone
  5. Test at the beginning or end: according to the rules its at the end. Reason being that you first have to make a pinning test immediately when it starts. If you would make another pinned test at the start of your turn than the first one would be redundant. However you do have a point that this does make it more predictable for the suppressor. In which case ALL pinning tests are made at the start of you turn and the first turn is tested at -20 WP, second, third ,etc. turns are done at 0 penalty WP. (and +30 if you're not shot at)

Do I summarize that correctly?

In all I'll think I'll take your stand on point 2. As it indeed can happen that two suppressees within the kill zone can have different BS bonusses depending on their weapons

And same for point 4: going prone is new for me (its not in my book, but my book is 1st print) but I can imagine thats also an option. I would though also allow exiting kill-zone as an option (though admittantly one does not know how big the kill-zone actually is). Going prone should have its own merits, what I can think of is: 1/2 chance less that you're hit (in the random hit distribution) and you can go prone as a reaction, in stead of at the start of your turn. This would make cause for interesting dynamics, because run for cover or exit can only be done in your own turn, so after you're shot at. And if the rest goes prone, you will have the biggest chance to get hit that turn. Going prone can be done before you're shot at however if ALL go prone you're also screwed as not only do you all have equal chance to get hit, you're also a prone target.

So assume 4 npcs, 2 in cover and 2 prone, than the two in cover actually count double so a D6 where 1-2:npc A in cover, 3-4: npc B in cover, 5 npc A prone, 6 npc B prone.

Finally point 5. If you would allow the advantage of prone rule (re-action) that would require an immediate -20WP test and thus another at the end of your turn, though you could say that you skip the first turn and then roll at the beginning of your turn... I think that will make things easier as it both does make things less predictable and you do not need to keep track who is and isn't pinned as you decide that when the turn starts.

Posted at

wolph42 said:

Yes you're right that this should have been in the 'rules' section of this forum. I spotted that after I submitted this question.

Thanks for the reflection. So to point out the differences and confirm some points:

  1. the -20 penalty for the suppressor is -20 (he does not gain +10 short range bonus as he will per definition fire in short range)
  2. the -20 penalty for the suppressee can be -10 depending on the range of the weapon, i.o.w. he can use the short range modifier if hes in short range
  3. concerning move for half action or full action, your not entirely clear on this but I get the feeling you more or less agree. You can use full move, that is 2xAB, you cannot run or charge.
  4. When pinned you either run for cover or go prone
  5. Test at the beginning or end: according to the rules its at the end. Reason being that you first have to make a pinning test immediately when it starts. If you would make another pinned test at the start of your turn than the first one would be redundant. However you do have a point that this does make it more predictable for the suppressor. In which case ALL pinning tests are made at the start of you turn and the first turn is tested at -20 WP, second, third ,etc. turns are done at 0 penalty WP. (and +30 if you're not shot at)

Do I summarize that correctly?

In all I'll think I'll take your stand on point 2. As it indeed can happen that two suppressees within the kill zone can have different BS bonusses depending on their weapons

And same for point 4: going prone is new for me (its not in my book, but my book is 1st print) but I can imagine thats also an option. I would though also allow exiting kill-zone as an option (though admittantly one does not know how big the kill-zone actually is). Going prone should have its own merits, what I can think of is: 1/2 chance less that you're hit (in the random hit distribution) and you can go prone as a reaction, in stead of at the start of your turn. This would make cause for interesting dynamics, because run for cover or exit can only be done in your own turn, so after you're shot at. And if the rest goes prone, you will have the biggest chance to get hit that turn. Going prone can be done before you're shot at however if ALL go prone you're also screwed as not only do you all have equal chance to get hit, you're also a prone target.

So assume 4 npcs, 2 in cover and 2 prone, than the two in cover actually count double so a D6 where 1-2:npc A in cover, 3-4: npc B in cover, 5 npc A prone, 6 npc B prone.

Finally point 5. If you would allow the advantage of prone rule (re-action) that would require an immediate -20WP test and thus another at the end of your turn, though you could say that you skip the first turn and then roll at the beginning of your turn... I think that will make things easier as it both does make things less predictable and you do not need to keep track who is and isn't pinned as you decide that when the turn starts.

Ok I just read the section again:

First of all, it does not explicitly say you don't apply the range modifier, but then again it doesn't say you don't add the full-auto bonus either.. but it does in the errata. The errata says nothing of the short range bonus though. I haven't really thought about this since I allow SF on all ranges as a house rule, thus range modifiers make more sense then. By RAW you'd add the +10 bonus every time, but it might have been intended to replace range bonus with the -20 BS.

Secondly, yes using SF does not affect the ranges and or penalties of the one being pinned. Their -20 BS penalty stacks with all other modifiers they might have, up to a total of +/- 60. For example, even if Pinned it's still easier to shoot someone 2 meters away then 100 meters away.

Third...argh...

3. No by RAW Pinned creatures are limited to one half action per turn, no exceptions. While I see some merit to your change (more realistic), it doesn't fit with other movement in the game. So I don't agree to the exception.

4. You "take cover", which might include moving towards a rock or throwing yourself to the ground. going prone might provide cover as you the firer might not see the target as well, and it causes a -10BS to people shooting at them. On the downside dodging is much harder.

5. At the end works ok. If you want to do it at the beginning to make it less predictable, simply don't allow a test the first round (since he's already failed the -20 Pinning test.)

As for exiting the kill zone.. remember it only lasts for 1 round. Once Pinned, if you get shot at at all you resist without the +30 bonus so try to exit the zone makes little sense. Taking cover is a good option unless you can shoot the guy shooting at you.

Posted at

right. i think we understand eachother now. We might not agree on all points but thats another matter.

There is one remark though I don't get:

"remember it only lasts for 1 round. Once Pinned, if you get shot at at all you resist without the +30 bonus so try to exit the zone makes little sense. Taking cover is a good option unless you can shoot the guy shooting at you. "

What do you mean with 'it only lasts for 1 round'?

Assuming that someone starts emptying his autopistol, that is 3? rounds suppressing fire. This means that as long as you're in the kill zone you have to make a pinning test at the end (or beginning) of each or your rounds. If you exit the kill zone, you do not need to make a pinning test anymore (unless you are currently pinned, in which case you get a +30) AND you're out of the kill-zone, that is no random hits on you.

Posted at

wolph42 said:

right. i think we understand eachother now. We might not agree on all points but thats another matter.

There is one remark though I don't get:

"remember it only lasts for 1 round. Once Pinned, if you get shot at at all you resist without the +30 bonus so try to exit the zone makes little sense. Taking cover is a good option unless you can shoot the guy shooting at you. "

What do you mean with 'it only lasts for 1 round'?

Assuming that someone starts emptying his autopistol, that is 3? rounds suppressing fire. This means that as long as you're in the kill zone you have to make a pinning test at the end (or beginning) of each or your rounds. If you exit the kill zone, you do not need to make a pinning test anymore (unless you are currently pinned, in which case you get a +30) AND you're out of the kill-zone, that is no random hits on you.

The action lasts one round. After that you could take another like it, or just shoot normally. If the enemy are already pinned they cannot be double-pinned, so normal autofire is better.

If you are not Pinned and exit the kill zone the firing can shoot again and create a new one where you are... so it's kinda pointless.

Posted at

Yes I agree Suppressive Fire does not have to repeated in order for it to stay in effect. As long as shots are being fired at the Pinned characters, they are considered under fire, and does not gain the +30 to their WP roll.

I didn't not that it you could only use Suppressive Fire at Short Range. And I have never allowed bonuses for range when anyone used Suppressive Fire, they are not trying to hit anything, and if they do even with the -20 to BS we have always just thought of it as a lucky hit.

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LordofEndTimes said:

Yes I agree Suppressive Fire does not have to repeated in order for it to stay in effect. As long as shots are being fired at the Pinned characters, they are considered under fire, and does not gain the +30 to their WP roll.

I didn't not that it you could only use Suppressive Fire at Short Range. And I have never allowed bonuses for range when anyone used Suppressive Fire, they are not trying to hit anything, and if they do even with the -20 to BS we have always just thought of it as a lucky hit.

[/quote

FFS lost my post. Oh well...

1. BS is used thus shooter is trying to hit.

2. It doesn't say you don't take penalties from being blind, shooting in darkness etc.

3. SF rules are weird.. and Pinning effect a bit too much at times.

Posted at

Friend of the Dork said:

wolph42 said:

right. i think we understand eachother now. We might not agree on all points but thats another matter.

There is one remark though I don't get:

"remember it only lasts for 1 round. Once Pinned, if you get shot at at all you resist without the +30 bonus so try to exit the zone makes little sense. Taking cover is a good option unless you can shoot the guy shooting at you. "

What do you mean with 'it only lasts for 1 round'?

Assuming that someone starts emptying his autopistol, that is 3? rounds suppressing fire. This means that as long as you're in the kill zone you have to make a pinning test at the end (or beginning) of each or your rounds. If you exit the kill zone, you do not need to make a pinning test anymore (unless you are currently pinned, in which case you get a +30) AND you're out of the kill-zone, that is no random hits on you.

The action lasts one round. After that you could take another like it, or just shoot normally. If the enemy are already pinned they cannot be double-pinned, so normal autofire is better.

If you are not Pinned and exit the kill zone the firing can shoot again and create a new one where you are... so it's kinda pointless.

ah yes ofcourse, I get it. And indeed good point there is no point is keepin SF. Though I would rule that if you stop SF and step over to full, semi or single, only the one you're shooting at doesn't get the +30, the rest that is pinned and in the kill zone (but not shot at) does get the +30. In which case its indeed better to roll at the start in stead of the end, because else you would give away who succeeds and who doesn't.

All in all this does make for a rather complicated set of rules whith many many possible interpretations. Im gonna draft up a house rule on this and post it later on.

As for the moving part, which I believe is the only point we really disagree on. Let me put it in game context:

Pinned character: "holy sh#t, have to get OUT of here" either starts moving away from shooter, goes down or goes for cover, this all indeed in a crouching movement. IMHO a panicky crouching movement is about the same speed as someone just walking from A to B, hence 2x half action Move (no run or charge)

Non pinned character: "WFTF, that MF is gonna DIE", either runs or moves for full cover or actually charges the pinner OR chooses to use a half move turn around and shoot. If you choose for the latter then yes, you can't keep up with the pinned character. However you can easily run the next round. So I don't see a problem with the relative move between pinned and no pinned characters. (Apos for the strong abrevs.)

You are obviously free to completely disagree on this, I just wanted to elaborate on this point a bit. I for once disagree on your house rule for extending SF beyond short range. I agree its more realistic, but it makes IMO SF too strong/unbalanced.

In all mucho thanks for the reflection!! It was very helpfull and enlightighing.

EDIT : one question does occur to me: assuming 3 targets in kill zone and 3 hits (so 6 DoS), the hits are 'randomly distributed' does that mean 3x 1d3 OR all characters receive one hit. This might look like a lame example but if it examplifies the point. To put the question the other way: assume autopistol and all 6 bullet hit and 10 targets, can all 6 hits end up in one target (in which case it can't be suppressive fire)?

I see SF as someone swinging a gun from right to left while holding the trigger, so no way all bullets end up in one target (unless its a very large target). Your BS decides how 'well' you swing your gun from left to right and whether you can actually hit a few targets along the way.

Posted at

wolph42 said:

Friend of the Dork said:

wolph42 said:

right. i think we understand eachother now. We might not agree on all points but thats another matter.

There is one remark though I don't get:

"remember it only lasts for 1 round. Once Pinned, if you get shot at at all you resist without the +30 bonus so try to exit the zone makes little sense. Taking cover is a good option unless you can shoot the guy shooting at you. "

What do you mean with 'it only lasts for 1 round'?

Assuming that someone starts emptying his autopistol, that is 3? rounds suppressing fire. This means that as long as you're in the kill zone you have to make a pinning test at the end (or beginning) of each or your rounds. If you exit the kill zone, you do not need to make a pinning test anymore (unless you are currently pinned, in which case you get a +30) AND you're out of the kill-zone, that is no random hits on you.

The action lasts one round. After that you could take another like it, or just shoot normally. If the enemy are already pinned they cannot be double-pinned, so normal autofire is better.

If you are not Pinned and exit the kill zone the firing can shoot again and create a new one where you are... so it's kinda pointless.

ah yes ofcourse, I get it. And indeed good point there is no point is keepin SF. Though I would rule that if you stop SF and step over to full, semi or single, only the one you're shooting at doesn't get the +30, the rest that is pinned and in the kill zone (but not shot at) does get the +30. In which case its indeed better to roll at the start in stead of the end, because else you would give away who succeeds and who doesn't.

All in all this does make for a rather complicated set of rules whith many many possible interpretations. Im gonna draft up a house rule on this and post it later on.

As for the moving part, which I believe is the only point we really disagree on. Let me put it in game context:

Pinned character: "holy sh#t, have to get OUT of here" either starts moving away from shooter, goes down or goes for cover, this all indeed in a crouching movement. IMHO a panicky crouching movement is about the same speed as someone just walking from A to B, hence 2x half action Move (no run or charge)

Non pinned character: "WFTF, that MF is gonna DIE", either runs or moves for full cover or actually charges the pinner OR chooses to use a half move turn around and shoot. If you choose for the latter then yes, you can't keep up with the pinned character. However you can easily run the next round. So I don't see a problem with the relative move between pinned and no pinned characters. (Apos for the strong abrevs.)

You are obviously free to completely disagree on this, I just wanted to elaborate on this point a bit. I for once disagree on your house rule for extending SF beyond short range. I agree its more realistic, but it makes IMO SF too strong/unbalanced.

In all mucho thanks for the reflection!! It was very helpfull and enlightighing.

Do what you will, but remember that Disengage from combat is also only a half move. How come it's easier with SF? 2x half move is not walking, it is jogging. A guy shooting on the run only gets a half action as well to move. Keep that in mind.

Otherwise I agree.

Posted at

you're quick. I've edited my last post with another related question. And is disengage costing a half turn not only in melee combat?

Posted at

Here's the result, I'll also post in the house rule section:

Suppressing fire House Ruling

Meaning of signs

- RAW
+ Not explicitly stated in the RAW, but implicitly derived
* House ruling
if rules are mixed they start in line with (-),(*) or (+)

Suppressing fire:
Conditions/consequences:
- must be in full auto burst
- weapon jams on 94 or higher. If the weapon is unreliable: on 91 or higher

effected area
- The suppressing zone (SF zone) is short range and angle of 45 degrees
-* The kill-zone is (-)short (*)AND normal range and angle of 45 degrees

Suppresor:
- SF BS penalty is -20
+ all other modifiers applicable for the situation, aplly. E.g blinded, higher ground, size opponent, terrain, sight etc.
+* The only exceptions to these are (+)the short range bonus and (*)the prone target penalty
- If one or more (every 2DoS, upto max amount of the fire rate of the used weapon) hits are made, they are randomly spread over EVERYONE in the kill zone (cover or not). Cover is taken into account according to its rules.
* If one or more targets are prone, than the chances they're hit (in the random distribution) are halved. Example npcs a, b, c and d, a and b are in cover, c and d are prone then on a D6 roll: 1-2 =a; 3-4 =b; 5=c and 6=d. Everyone else shooting at the prone target get the standard -10BS

Suppressee:
- At the END of the turn of the 'Suppressor' everyone within SF zone must succeed a WP check -20 or be pinned as soon as his turn starts
* The next turn everyone (pinned or not) must succeed a normal WP check at the beginning of his turn or be pinned his next round
+ As soon as one is either out of the kill-zone or the suppressing fire has stopped AND you're not shot at, everyone who is still pinned must succeed a WP +30 roll at the end of his turn or remain pinned. This is repeated every round until a succesfull WP + 30 check is made. If you are pinned and someone is still shooting at you, you do NOT get the +30 bonus! (Whether you are in a SF zone or not)
- close combat ignores pinning effect (auto success)

When pinned:
- you must either move to cover or out of SF zone
+ any BS attack you make are at -20 penalty, all applicable modifiers for the situation apply, so you do get +10 BS if you're in short range
- while in cover you must remain in cover. You may move (only a half action) but only if you can remain in cover during your entire move
-* (-)pinnend charachters may only take half actions. (*)Exception: if you are NOT in cover AND inside the kill zone, you can use a 2 half actions action to move (not run, not charge, only move)

Posted at

wolph42 said:

you're quick. I've edited my last post with another related question. And is disengage costing a half turn not only in melee combat?

Yes disengage is out of melee combat. Point is that, since you have to keep dodging and cover yourself, you can't move more than half move. It seems strange that while being kept "down" with suppressive fire you can still move almost freely and take double-move. This also makes it alot easier to simply engage your enemy in close combat.. say if you have Agility 50, if someone uses SF on a target 10 meters away he can just run into melee with him without a problem. When bullets are flying around you, you should want to get down into cover and not run away, especially since you can't really see the "kill zone."

Now over to your proposed rules:

Seems like you're gonna overpower it. Even AFTER succeeding the -20 pinning test you need to take another at +0 as soon as it is your next turn? Sounds broken in many ways. It basically means you should always start firing SF on the enemy, and the one who shoots first has YET another advantage.

Round 1 shooter fires SF at 3 thugs. 1 of them manages the -20 WP test the others are pinned. The one who succeeded will then either have to make yet another test, or wait until his next turn for it or be pinned later..?

BTW it's not clear that pinned characters get a test to overcome it every turn.

"* The next turn everyone (pinned or not) must succeed a normal WP check at the beginning of his turn or be pinned his next round"

The sentence above is confusing and/or broken IMO.

Posted at

fortunately i'm not a rule-writer gui%C3%B1o.gif I begin to understand why its so fn impossible to get rules correct on paper.

But im getting ahead of myself. Again thnx for the feedback, someday we'll agree we understand eachother.

I believe most your comment is about:

"* The next turn everyone (pinned or not) must succeed a normal WP check at the beginning of his turn or be pinned his next round"

and the fact of the double move on which we simply disagree.

Maybe this is more clear:

Suppressee:
* As long as the SF lasts, everyone within the SF-zone must succeed a WP test at the beginning of each round, or be pinned.
* The FIRST time you make this test during this combat you get a -20 penalty on your WP
+ If your 'pinned' you must succeed a WP test at the beginning of each of your turns, or your will still be pinned that round. If no one is shooting at you, meaning that you have to be at least outside of the kill-zone or the SF has stopped, you get a +30 bonus to your WP check. Once you succeed the check you are no longer pinned.
- close combat ignores pinning effect (auto success)

You think these rules overpower the SF too much? What do you suggest?

As for the move, I get what you mean. However disengage is something you do to not give the other the opportunity of a free attack. You CAN choose to turn around and start running, in which case the other can get a hack for free. I don't see any difference when shot at, with the exception that you will keep down and crouch so you can't run, but you can move two half actions. And yes if you're NOT pinned you can charge the suppressor, but that is allowed anyway, though as GM I would rule extra chance to get hit that way**. If you are pinned however you are ONLY allowed to get the frak into hiding or 'run' away as fast as you can. Its true though that you don't know where the 'SF zone' is, but if there is no cover, moving away from the shooter is quite a safe assumption.

**something allong the lines of 'the suppressor doesn't get a penalty and if he succeeds his BS, the bullet will hit the charger, every 2 DoS are extra hits that are randomly spread over the kill zone'.

Posted at

As for the move, I get what you mean. However disengage is something you do to not give the other the opportunity of a free attack. You CAN choose to turn around and start running, in which case the other can get a hack for free. I don't see any difference when shot at, with the exception that you will keep down and crouch so you can't run, but you can move two half actions.

The half action move isn't a move that only lasts a half round. It's a move that is made at a slow enough pace that you can do other stuff while moving and it takes you your agility bonus metres in five seconds.

A half action move is what you do if you're walking and reading. It's not walking for 2.5 seconds and reading for 2.5 seconds, rince and repeat. You walk and read at the same time for five seconds with your attention divided between your tasks.

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Graspar said:

As for the move, I get what you mean. However disengage is something you do to not give the other the opportunity of a free attack. You CAN choose to turn around and start running, in which case the other can get a hack for free. I don't see any difference when shot at, with the exception that you will keep down and crouch so you can't run, but you can move two half actions.

The half action move isn't a move that only lasts a half round. It's a move that is made at a slow enough pace that you can do other stuff while moving and it takes you your agility bonus metres in five seconds.

A half action move is what you do if you're walking and reading. It's not walking for 2.5 seconds and reading for 2.5 seconds, rince and repeat. You walk and read at the same time for five seconds with your attention divided between your tasks.

Your completely right, however its solely semantics, a lot of 1/2 actions in DH are actually actions done at the same time. Though they have to be split up to keep track of them rulewise. Stuff like 'I draw my weapon and move to the opponent' are two half actions which (in this case) can be done either at the same time or consecutively. In both cases though they count as two half actions (unless you have quickdraw).

So its semantics and as far as semantics are concerned... lets not go there gui%C3%B1o.gif

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It's not just semantics. You're suggesting that a pinned character makes two half action moves (both of them would require walking for a full round). How is that supposed to work, he sprouts two more legs and walks while he walks? He moves both feet at the same time?

What you're describing is a full action move, which is fine as far as house rules go but it's not as you put it "keep down and crouch so you can't run". A mad dash for cover would be fine, ten seconds worth of moving akwardly away from fire in five seconds is not.

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allright, let me refraise that in other terms.

Houserule: when pinned and going for cover or exiting the SF zone, you still get may only take one half action. However in stead of a half action move you may make a half action 'hurried' move, meaning you move twice as fast.

Hurrying as double move is actually a RAW, however only in narrative time, hence the houserule to apply it to this situation as well.

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A hurried move that takes you twice as far as normal in combat would be the sprint talent, which gives 1 fatigue with each use after the first round and costs XP.

Also, walking in narrative time already assumes you make a full action move, for example an AB 1 character moves 24 metres a minute for what amounts to twelve rounds, which is his full move rate. You can move faster as a full action (run and charge) so upping the speed is quite possible. But it ceases to be a half action once you start "hurrying". Moving at a leisurly pace is a half action move. Moving faster is any of the full action variants.

Why must it be a half action move? Why not use "when pinned and moving towards the nearest cover a character may take a full action move despite only being able to take half actions otherwise"? The mad dash for cover certainly seems appropriate when scared witless of the bullets flying everywhere.

I'd probably give the option between the careful, half action move to the nearest cover or the mad dash with an agility test not to fall down. +10 for full move -10 for run.

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the problem is that I think that SF is rather powerfull (then again full autoburst on one target is as well) so to balance it a bit I grant the suppressee a full move. +10/-10 Ag thought understandable, has the drawback of even more rules and dieroles, I think the current houseruling is complex enough.

You are right though, in your description, it is what I initially wanted to say: you may make a full move. However the term 'move' can also be misinterpreted and my thought was that 2 half move action is the most 'no discussion possible about its meaning' description. Yours works as well though.

Eventually where it all boils down to is that the movement in DH in general isn't very realistic and that makes it hard to imagine. In this case, an avarage joe should have AB=3. If I walk onto the street and start spraying bullets on a plaza, no fn way that people only move 3m/5s (assuming its not crowded)

Edit: btw updates of the houserule can be found here

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Suppresor:
- SF BS penalty is -20
+ all other modifiers applicable for the situation, aplly. E.g blinded, higher ground, size opponent, terrain, sight etc.
+* The only exceptions to these are (+)the short range bonus and (*)the prone target penalty
- If one or more (every 2DoS, upto max amount of the fire rate of the used weapon) hits are made, they are randomly spread over EVERYONE in the kill zone (cover or not). Cover is taken into account according to its rules.
* If one or more targets are prone, than the chances they're hit (in the random distribution) are halved. Example npcs a, b, c and d, a and b are in cover, c and d are prone then on a D6 roll: 1-2 =a; 3-4 =b; 5=c and 6=d. Everyone else shooting at the prone target get the standard -10BS

The prone target produces somewhat strange effects - if there's only one target in the kill zone, it's irrelevant whether he's standing or not.

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Eventually where it all boils down to is that the movement in DH in general isn't very realistic and that makes it hard to imagine. In this case, an avarage joe should have AB=3. If I walk onto the street and start spraying bullets on a plaza, no fn way that people only move 3m/5s (assuming its not crowded)

Sure, they'd be making the aforementioned mad dash or freeze, down and try to crawl away. E.g. a half action move (crawling away) or a no holds barred charge right out of there. For the runners i'd imagine there would be a lot of falling and stumbling, that tends to happen if you run paniced, which is why I suggested the agility test.

The prone target produces somewhat strange effects - if there's only one target in the kill zone, it's irrelevant whether he's standing or not.

Rather strange. But how about this for a fix, in case of only one target give the normal penalty to BS for a prone target.

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1st remark, agi check, ill add it as optional rule

2nd,all targets prone (among which one target), had come already to the same conclusion, just forgot to add it to the ruleset (which is getting pretty verbose...)

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I have a question: Why are you imposing a penalty (past the already built in penalty to hit someone from suppressive) for people that dive prone? I understand that you want to model someone being harder to hit, but remember, there's a hail of bullets/lasfire and people dive prone in response to that, or at least in response to the first few rounds. So if someone dives prone and is hit anyway, he just didn't dive prone fast enough and was hit by one of the first rounds before he got to the ground. Although if you insist on keeping the "halved random chance" rule, then this at least helps explain why it doesn't matter if he's prone or not: when the shots (targeted at him) started, he wasn't prone.

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@Tyraxus

By the same logic, Dodge wouldn't negate shots either.