Hey new Rogue Trader GM here, and well several of the players and I were talking about how many armsman are actually on their ship. This made me wonder because especially in Lure of the Expanse you have several oppurtunities to deploy large numbers of your armsman into a battle or situation. Therefore, I was curious if anyone knew or had any hard and fast ways of figuring out what percentage of a cchips population/crew are made up of naval armsman (like 2 or 3 percent? 100 per every 1000 normal crew?) Oviously the number of troops aboard an ship increases dramatically with the barracks component and the subsequent aquisition of soldiers but I am really curious to see how many you auto have aboard.

Do not go there
Besides the fact that their is no established basis in the FFG-RT-Game to make such a calculation (other then what was stated in the "Barracks" component) this is not what you are looking for.

What you are looking for (if you allow me some Jedi-Mind-Tricks) is the number of troops your players have available for ground deployment. Besides those already provided by "Barracks" (if your players ship has them!) I would suggest the following approach.

1) Sit down with your players and ask them how many ground troops available for deployment they would like to have. Explains them all the following steps before they make a decision.

2) Check the "Profit" section of the core rules and let them make a test like they would try to acquiere said troops. Give them a +10 bonus and give it a rather suiting availability for size and class of ship (transporters are less likely to draw crew looking for combat. The more crew the better the availability of men you can actually put to a fight)

3) If they made the check, all is fine. This is the number of troops they have available. If the check is failed, however, the abscence of the troop will lead to moral issues (rating might stop working if security isn´l looking for them etc.), functionality issue (mali for repelling boarders and/or components are undermanned) and so on. If they lose troops, this effects will last till the crew is replaced.

Do this once every adventure. Just because the guys where ready for war last month does not mean that they are willing to risk their neck for some extra money next time. You can adjust the numbers for roles on social skills (better "mustering", "rallying" and so ).

My two cent

Without a Barracks I'd keep it really simply an say that a rogue trade vessel if it hasn't made any other provision for ground troops can spare about 20 or 30 armsmen and that these guys aren't trained soldiers as much as well equipped cops. Give 'em flak and shotguns. These guys mostly bash heads, break up fights and keep order so they won't last long against hardened troops.

If the PCs want anything else, they'll have to acquire it via PF and acquisitions.

I'd let any ship have room for 50-100 marines (as in shipboard troops, not Astartes) without the barracks. With the Barracks I'd allow up to 5000 infantry.

My group has a barracks and two seperate groups of troops numbering 1000 and 700. In addition they have over 1000 armsmen (its a cruiser) but these guys don't go on away missions and are basically cops/enforcers of order.

Yeah, it's worth remembering that the armsmen are there for a reason, the last thing you want to deal with is a mutany onboard the vessel because all your armed enforcers are planetside. For the most part, I agree with the numbers given above. Assume that you fairly easily find 30 or so guys with combat experance that are willing to go planetside.

Also, the Imperium is a violant place, in a pinch (and with enough money) you could probibly draw up and arm some 5% or even greater % of your population. But these would be little more then armed irregulars, scum and recantivists drawn from the dreges of the ship and lead into battle by a handful of loyal MPs. It'd also start greatly hurting your Morale or Crew scores depending on how the engagment goes.

Well,

Nice question, I've struggled with it myself and came to the following conclusion.
On a sword class frigate about 10% would be trained under arms (at least), so approx 1300)
Of those at least half is needed to keep ship defence and discipline (650 lef).

Those 650 include pilots, junior officers etc.... leave 500

So you have 500 difficult to replace troops of quality

I usually allow them to use troops for guarding camps, have some redcoats etc but I've instructed my players THEY are the stars, not military commanders, they agreed.

So I created a nice but small multi purpose army for them complete with officers.
So yes, a rather large force but what is 500 men in a universe where armies number in the thousands.
As soon as I have Death Watch I probably use Horde rules for them.

Golden Dawn Marines: (Not Adeptes Astartes)
The regiment is divided in 5 companies of each 10 platoons, approximately 520 men in total

Regiment: 500+ men
Company: 100 men
Platoon: 10 to 20 men

HQ:
Total: 10
Captain Joshua Gregorius
Staff Sergeant “Gunny” Tannery
Honour Guard
Chimera Command APC

When the Lord Captain is not personally leading his troops it falls to the capable hands of Captain Gregorius and his Staff Sergeant.
Joshua and the honour guard also accompany the Lord Captain on formal occasions.

1st Company: The Lords Hand

The Lords hand is the best Company aboard the Golden Dawn, they are all veteran combatants and they train every day, to get better, faster and deadlier.
2nd Platoon is especially skilled, they can be dropped anywhere and they will survive no matter the cost, the Reapers are arrogant and expensive but worth every throne.
Lieutenant Malakai is the type that leads by example and never even considers fleeing or surrendering, a great battle leader.

Composition:
5 Platoons of ten veteran soldiers each led by a sergeant

2nd Company: “The Lords Pride”

After the previous 2nd Company was whipped out along with the previous Lord Captain a new 2nd Company was raised, they took over the name “The Lords Pride” is his honour.
Lieutenant Sarvus is still young and inexperienced but eager to prove himself.

Composition:
8 Platoons of fifteen soldiers each led by a sergeant

3rd Company “The Lords Fist”

When things need to be broken, vehicles, structure or otherwise he calls in the 3rd Company, led by Lieutenant Zachariah who is also an amateur archaeologist.
Though 3rd company is smaller as the other squads they are well trained combat engineers.

Composition:
5 Platoons of ten soldiers each led by a sergeant

4th Company “The Lords Enforcers”

The 4th Company are urban warfare specialists but also excel at keeping areas secure as a police force, when the Lord Captain has reasons to occupy a small town or larger building he usually calls in Lieutenant Victriss and her Company.

Composition:
10 Platoons of fifteen soldiers each led by a sergeant

5th Company “The Overseers”

The 5th Company is made up out of three squadrons of Sentinel walkers for nine in total, armed with a variety of weapons (Mainly Autocannons and Missile Pods) and their support crew.
When the other troops needs heavy support the 5th company is called in.
The company, while small is led by the prestigious Lieutenant Sarah “Ace” Mordechai who defeated five Ork Killer Kans in a single deployment when she was still a sergeant in the Imperial Guard.

Composition:
3 Squadrons of three Sentinel Walkers
3 Platoons of ten soldiers each led by a sergeant

If a rogue trader wanted to deploy to a planet for a conflict I would say he could perhaps out put 25% of the crew. Remember many of the crew will be trained in some rudimentary combat - especially to prevent boarding operations.

Think of it as an old fashioned merchnatman craft - they had Bosuns and Bosuns mates to keep the rabble in line (armsmen) but when it came to an action (combat) almost all the crew would be involved, basically they would be defending their home.

I really do see the RT ship as a Pravateer/Pirateer and would expect the crew to be able to fight whereever and whenever the captain needed. Over time the crew would get better at all types of conflict as the chaff would be cut down like gretchin in an ork attack.

However this is far future, and though many things are alike, much isn't. For one, not all crew are crew but perhaps servitors or family of crew. Finally Planetside at least, many would be impaired (Voiders) in combat on terra firma so to speak.

This is how i derive the 25% - armsmen and crew capable of planetside conflict. With a barracks (or murder servitors) then this would be higher.

As to the quality of the forces, this would be down to GM fiat, and maybe if this is something you are planning on repeatedly, perhaps give them a rating and improve after so many conflicts.

It may be worth having a nosey at Final Sanction DW download for rules on horde combat - if only to speed up conflist if you go down that route.

Finally what the decision comes down to is what you and the players want to achieve in the game - and if Planetary/Colony conquests are going to play part of it, then nock something together for that.

I'd say about 5% of the crew are armsmen. This would mean that a cruiser carried a full regiment simply to provide security and boarding parties, but that fits with the genre. When a ship is boarded, the crew will pick up weapons to defend it, if simply because they know the enemy will kill them if they have a chance.
With regards to the barracks component, the size of the space it takes up is as big as the living quarters for a cruisers crew!! In mu game this component will carry between 5000-10000 soldiers and a decent amount of tanks, artillery etc. bear in mind though that unless a ship has taken the lighter bay extension, the amount of landing ships may not be sufficient for a planetary assault in the short term. they will probably have to rely on heavy lifters dropping them off and taking a couple of hours to unload.

On most ships (around frigate size), I'd say about 500, unless you have a barracks too, in which case I'd double that to 1000.

On a cruiser, I'd say about 1000, and double it to 2000 with a barracks.

The Rule Book states that in the case of geller-field fluctuations or boarding most of the crew lock themselves in their bunks and let the Rogue Traders/solders deal with it. Part of running a ship is paying for armsmen. Certanly there is likely some sort of shipboard police force, but they are untrained brutes only useful for bashing in heads. Basic WP stats (20-30), untrained in weapon use (which makes their actual checks 10-15). In my games the RT are certainly allowed to bring these men with them, or force them to defend the ship, but they will have horrible morale and are crap in combat. They can be useful of course, a few hundred mooks can be very dangerous, but it is very situational. In a true military encounter they are dog meat.

If RT players want combat trained personnel they can pay for them or train them. If they want weapons they pay for them or build them.

A dedicated paramilitary force on a vessel would have to reflect their usefulness. You don't have 3 armed guards for every 100 people in a regular business, because the people you employ are not suppose to try and murder their CEO because the coffee machine isn't working: you have a dozen guards for the buildiing, that monitor the entrance and exits to the main areas and potentially a few others at sensitive locations - and enough spares to cover the job if someone cannot perform their duties.

The nature of the 40k universe does imply that cultists, psykers, aliens, etc. may attempt to infiltrate or attack a vessel: esspecially a warp vessel chartered to a Rogue Trader who intentionally takes the vessel beyond the realm of the Imperium. As such it's reasonable to assume a RT is going to have large group of armed professionals to protect his ass(ets). The 500/1000 (x2 for barracks) sounds pretty reasonable, considering the ship sizes, number of sensitive areas, etc.

However, the crew and most especially the paramilitary group are hired for the ship, they are not a private army for the RT. A RT may offer danger-pay and get a large group of paided-volunteers, and keep doing so - until the volunteers are killed. After a large group of volunteers are dead, don't expect many more to sign up. The crew will also be upset, knowing their are fewer armed defenders on-board, etc.

if the RT wants a private army, it's better to buy a group, where their job description includes their likely death. A ship armsman doesn't nessecarly expect to leave the ship and get killed on a planet while performing some extracuricular activity for their boss - the boss is suppose to hire people who do that kind of work.

Citizen Philip said:

I agree with everything in your post except this part. You are correct that in the 40k universe these things may happen and should be prepared for, but I don't believe that is included in the ship. The ship comes with a crew to run it, but if you don't pay for armed professionals they aren't on the ship, just regular untrained crewman. It doesn't come with weaponry, engines, or warp drive either. If you want armed professionals, pay for them, otherwise you just have shipsmen who are easy prey for said cultists, psykers, aliens, etc.

riplikash said:

i would have to assume that a warp-vessel is considered an unusual job, even if your vessel belongs to a charterist Captain who only plys well-used and Imperium controlled warp routes. A Rogue Trader with a underwhleming warrant, who can wander willy-nilly in well-secured sector is also considered pretty pretty unusual. However, a Rogue Trader with an impressive warrant who as a matter of business trots out into the expanse and beyond the Imperium is going attract a certain kind of employee, who are going to require an armed band either because: they are professionals, who require some job security, are vassals of their employer and expect protection, or press-ganged malcontents that need to be monitored.

I'm not saying that your armsman is especially talented or warrants a hefty stat-block, specialized training or equipment. But in a pinch you can offer money and some will always come forward - but you should hire mercenaries if you want a private army.

Now, a RT with articular gift for oratory could convince a small group of armsmen, that is is their duty to die for him - but not any large scale.

Citizen Philip said:

Yeah, we are probably just going to be left in a place where we disagree.

For me the ship doesn't come with engines, plasma drive, gellar field, life support, or weapons, so why would it come with armed men? It needs all of these things to travel the warp, and I put it on the players head to provide them.

I agree that the captain can try to use them as troops, and that a sufficiently charasmatic one can make the like it. But for me they would have untrained Dark Heresy level stats (20-30) and be untrained in weapon use (50% penalty to all checks).

Rip-

I feel like your interpretation is problematic, because it all of the poorly equiped crew are hding away then the average boarding action wouldn't even be a contest God forbid they send murder servitors aboard. It seems that by simply iniating the attack at all if the RT did not previously aquire some troops would lead to almost total victory for the attacker. Of course this is assuming that said attacking vessell isn't simply using their own horrified and incompetent crew, but then this would imply its own horrific morale penalties for simply attacking in the first place. While I can see where you are coming from with your interpretation, it seems to me that through both the rules and the lore of the setting imply that just about every ship would have to have some sort of formalized and professionalized armsmen aboard (the exact number of that being debatable but their pressence a fact). if anything to board and repel boarders.

AngelOfMercy777 said:

Now on the one had I do agree that the idea that any time a ship is invaded all non combat personnel go into hiding probably isn't quite right, though it is exactly what the book says.

And if there are no defending troops I would probably that the crew will try to defend, though I would impose morale penalties.

The thing is the ship rules aren't only for making powerful Rogue Trader ships, but ships of all variety from traders to warships. Yes if a RT ship goes into combat without previously aquiring defenders then they would be easy prey to boarders.

But then again, if they go into battle without previously aquiring lance weapons and shields they are also doomed. Yes if they go into combat without aquiring the necessary equipment they will be in trouble, but that doesn't mean they don't have to do it.

However, I do assume that there are some sort of on-board enforcers, a few hundred. But if they haven't had them trained with military weapons or provided military weapons than they are going to be little more than a brute squad. They can bash in a few heads and put down riots, but are going to be pretty useless in a military action.

riplikash said:

This is a vessel with tens of thousands of crew we're talking about. Rioters will be more than just a handful of petty malcontents, and will likely require serious brutality to put down - more than just a few thugs with big cudgels. This is true on hive worlds, starships and any other location where great numbers of humanity are pressed together by their environs.

There needs to be sufficient number and quality of armsmen on board a vessel, as standard, to maintain basic working discipline amongst a crew of tens of thousands of human beings and defend it from external aggressors (the latter function cannot be ignored; the Imperium is a society bent towards its military, and even in places not plagued by constant war, the void is still hostile... it's no different to putting defensive guns on transports). This, like all basic functions of the crew, is counted within Crew Rating.

i'm of the opinion, that Armsmen are avaliable to the Rogue Trader - because they are a normal part of the crew of all imperium vessels, and especially on adventerous Rogue Trader vessels.

At the same time, I am exrtemely uncomfortable with idea the players are granted a free army. i don't discount the vessel has trained armsmen to handle the huge crew and the myriad threats a warp vessel could expect while exploring the unknown - but at the same time, I don't want to de-value the entirely appropriate efforts to acquire a professional fighting force.

A small group of toughs, who are pleased to fight for the honour of their Lord-Captain seems pretty reasonable. i wouldn't grant them sophisticated tactics or allow them to function independently like a military unit - because unlike a professional force, the armsman is a specialised crew member who is onyl truly at home aboard his or her vessel.

As a DM, a good sticking point to strike home at players who insist on using crew as a private army is the entire lack of cohesive function as a group, entire lack of logistical concerns or a an organized military structure. Crew members wander off, break and run, settle scores amongst themselves, etc.

i suppose you could assume that most of the armsmen represent the different ship-family groups of the Void-born and that each family group takes a turn to "guard" their Captain. So perhaps, the kind of Armsmen avaliable can vary from ceremonial wrench-wielding toughs, to riveters and much less helpful logistical staff with penicl thin ornamental foils.

Lots of wriggle room to encourage the aquirement of a trained military force, entirely seperated from the crew. Also, it gives you a chance for more ship-adventures when the ground-pounders and the crew dont' get along.

I have to say, this is my favorite suggestion.

The big thing for me is that for WHATEVER reason, if they haven't paid for an army they, effectively, don't have one. Certainly the ship likely has some form of police, and the RTs could conceivably force them to accompany them on missions. But they should be largely ineffective at anything beyond the most simple and heavy handed tasks. Just because they have, on paper, 1000 guardsmen does not mean they have 1000 henchmen to bring to bear, and they are in no way a substitute for investing in a military force to repel boarders/warp threats/riots. They aren't trained for military style combat so their morale and tactics will be weak. They don't have the proper chain of command or discipline, so they are going to be difficult to control, organize and command tactically. They don't have the proper logistics so transport and communications is going to be a nightmare.

For my groups I have commonly allowed 10-20 armsmen to accompany them without significant penalties, but these men aren't combat specialists, don't handle really dangerous situations well, break easily, and are difficult to coordinate in anything but mob tactics. An army, or even a unit, is more than just bodies. It is training, discipline, and experience. Ships armsmen have the bodies, but not the rest.

riplikash said:

I would have to say that this is reasonable.

I would think that there are more than 10-20 of said people that could be taken with the group, however, controlling more than that with an undisciplined group could be difficult.

There is also a great chance to roleplay here... it really depends on how you organize those groups. For instance, if your group has an Arch-militant, they were once military and would know how to drill the crew as necessary for combat. A Missionary could be very useful in keeping their moral high during said trainings and would accompany them in boarding actions along with the Arch-militant, acting as the commander of the force.

With some discipline (and a willingness to roleplay) any number of crew members that are considered "serfs" and not vital (such as engineseers, etc.) could be pressed into a defense force / boarding party. This could be a group of elite 10-20, or a well drilled group in the thousands. It really depends on what kind of ship your Rogue Trader is trying to run. They may dictate that everyone aboard their ship has to serve at least X amount of years as part of the defense force.

As per all things, your Rogue Trader's style of command dictates the reality for the rest of the crew, and how many of them are the ships security force.

i know this is a super duper thread-o-mancy necro post, but for anyone else pondering this question...lets look generally to reality.

how many marines in real life were assigned to various ship classes for the purposes of security, boarding/landing parties? how many sailors were expected to be supplied by a ship for the naval brigade etc, and scale up to fit the general class of ship in 40k.

USN in 1944 believed 20 sailors from a destroyer was a sufficient landing force...depending on the class of DD that could be 5%-20% or so of the crew

i'd have to dig a lot to find the source again but WWI a US BB was expected to be able to put something like 2 platoons of infantry ashore.