Hello everyone,

Am running a DH campaign of my own devising, but a little stuck on how pistols work in melee.

What combat actions can be taken with a pistol in melee?

Can you aim as a half action to get +10?

Can you feint?

All help gratefully received

I'd say that you can do anything with a pistol that you could do if you weren't in melee. The only difference is the range modifier.

Assuming the pistol is being used as such and not as an improvised bludgeoning weapon, any actions that are valid for a ranged attack can be used when in melee with a pistol.

So a charge, all-out attack and a feint are all invalid actions for a pistol wielder making a ranged attack in melee as these actions are for melee attacks only.

We've run into this problem as well. There was a minor debate in ur group as to whether the "Firing into Melee" penalty (-20) should apply to people in melee firing at their opponent. The rules (and I might be mixing this up with RT) state that if you are adjacent to your opponent then you and that opponent are in melee. Therefore, if you fired at that opponent, you'd be firing into melee.

Some players had a thematic argument, saying that the -20 was meant to represent you trying not to hit your freinds, and you wouldn't need to be careful if there is no risk of hitting someone you like, and so there should be no penalty (-0).

In the end, as a temporary measure, my GM decided to impose a flat -10 penalty (the average of -20 and -0) if you were firing at your melee opponent with a pistol.

I let my players use pistols (and only pistols) in melee to fire at their oppenets without the penalty for firing into a melee, but also without the bonus for firing point blank, which means very very few of them do it unless they have to, since starting BS scores tend to be on the low side. Its worked so far, and our pistoleer loves it, had his paired bolt pistols reinforced for "bolter whipping" and giggles the whole time. I know its not really appropriate, but i can't help but laugh along with him.

as you are stuck in melee you are not firing into it you are already inside... you loose the point blank bonus however because you need to hit your enemie although he is trying to push your weapon to the side

of course you still can aim (aim just being taking the time to wait for a goob opportunity to hit as a round is ~5-6 seconds you jsut wat a couple of seconds for a good chance to hit) you can aim in melee as well so why not with pistols in melee?

of course normally you can't feint and you can't parry such hits... these actions would need GM approval and house ruling but the rest is covered by the rules

(btw also check the rules on shotgun pistols (rules+errata) maybe it clarifies rules)

Many thanks for the input. It seems that this is a bit of a grey area, given the amount of house rules going on.

The rules specify you "cannot make ranged attacks while engaged in melee, unless you are armed with a pistol". Which is not very helpful. It seems to suggest a pistol used in melee is still a ranged attack, despite the opt out in point black range.

This seems to be a consequence of the way melee and ranged attacks are jumbled together.

I think I will go with aiming, because if you can aim a sword I don't see why you can't aim a pistol. Otherwise there will be a lot of half actions going wanting with pistols and that will just convince people to go with pistols that offer semi and full auto bursts. Feints seem wrong to me somehow. I can see how you might feint a sword blow at the legs and then sweep up to someones head, but with a pistol you would just be changing where you are pointing it.

DavidJones said:

As I see it, the point of this distinction is to prevent basic and heavy weapons from being used as ranged weapons in close combat.

There are two ways a character can use a pistol in close combat, firstly they can use it as a ranged weapon. testing on BS, and can be used on single-shot, semi-auto or full auto burst. The alternative is to use the pistol as an improvised melee weapon, testing on WS, using the improvised weapon characteristic instead of the normal damage trait of the pistols.

If using the pistol as a ranged weapon you cannot feint, charge or use swift attack as these actions only apply to a melee attack. The aim action can be equally applied to either mode of attack.

I actually believe that I may be in the same gaming group as Kieran, if so hi. My theory on pistols in melee is that you should not suffer the -20 penalty and that the loss of the +30 point blank range benefit and loss of targeting equipment is sufficient. At a range just outside of melee engagement you have a +30 bonus for being in point blank range. If you use the theory that if you are in melee combat you get a -20 penalty then you are suffering a total of a -50 swing from point blank range and you don't get any benefits for targeting equipment. Also, I am member of the group that believes that the -20 is supposed to indicate, at least in part, the difficulty in not hitting any friend or innocent target that may be in the melee.

kieran57 said:

It seems to remain a ranged attack, ie tested with BS (I thought you had to test with WS, but this is just me bringing Necromunda rules into Dark Heresy).

Point-blank modifier does not apply (explicit in the description of "Point Blank").

You can Aim (otherwise why does it give you the option to aim with Weapon Skill?), just it probably doesn't represent carefully aiming your gun as much as carefully placing your shots.

As far as I can read it Feint would be possible with Pistols (it only says you may a WS test, not that it requires a melee weapon, and it could represent more than just doing a traditional feint ala fencing), but it seems a bit odd and gamey. Charge isn't possible with pistols (or more accurately there is little point. As it consumes a full action, and gives +10 WS, so there is no advantage to charging with pistols. Moving normally into point blank range would be much better). Swift attack explicitly mentions melee weapons so is not doable with pistols.

Bilateralrope said:

This is how everyone in our game reads the rules. There is no range modifier (no point blank or close range), no shooting into melee penalty (even if others are in the melee as well).

Mahali said:

Or it's a result of stacked modifiers:

+30 - Point blank

-20 - Firing into melee

-10 - Your opponents keep knocking your gun around.

It does specify that pistols never benefit from the point blank bonus, as they are short ranged weapons anyway.

Also the shooting into melee penalty doesn't apply if you are IN the melee already.

I don't have a book with me at the mo so can't get a page reference.

Kasatka said:

agreed with the rest but where is this written?

Sirion said:

On pg127 of core, "when used in close combat, the firer gains no bonuses or penalties to hit for range or targeting equipment". In RAW, this would mean that you could still get a bonus for an unaware, prone, helpless, different sized and stunned opponents. Also you would still get penalties, for called shots, darkness, fatigue, fog/mist/shadow, being prone, using an off hand, shooting into melee, different sized opponents and weather/unnatural conditions.

It boils down to no sights, scopes or aiming of any kind, and no bonus or penalty from range (as you are at the shortest possible range, but your targets are ducking and weaving).

thanks.... we missed that one... always using red dots in melee

I agree on all point except on parrying. You don't actually parry the bullet but rather try to push the pistol away to a different angel so the he misses. A pistol in melee is cool,but at Semi or Full it is kind of a mood killer. So a Parry reaction will cancel the Semi or Full attack.

I don't think the pistol rules actually prevent someone from getting the +10/20 bonus for aiming if they take the time to do so (although I guess it depends what you define as 'targeting equipment').

As written, a parry can only be used to block a melee attack, so the only option is to dodge the pistol burst. I agree that semi/full bursts in close combat can be a bit of a mood killer and allowing characters (especially those without dodge) an attampt to negate the attack sounds fair.

indeed, the rules do net specify that you cannot parry, but then why are you only using single shot in melee when you can use burst or full auto?

Kasatka said:

Have to say I might disallow full auto and burst in close combat... just feels a bit too much.

borithan said:

If your in melee with pistols, you don't get point blank bonuses, its in the core book.

I allow an upgrade for pistols to allow them to be used as melee weapons in melee, including for parry/dodge, but they count as "unbalanced" and get the parry penalty for it.

I love Bursts in close combat, reminds me of the origonal Fallout games and cutting people in half with my SMG

Pistols do, like every other ballistic weapon, gain the point blank bonus when used in point blank. They simply do not gain the point blank bonus when used in melee, and no other type of ballistic weapon *can* be used in melee. Otherwise you would be better off using pistols than swords until you have highly advanced melee talents, as you could just get +50BS from going full auto at point blank in melee. Toss in dual wielding, add a red dot on each gun, and your getting +60BS with two pistols going full auto - that would just be .. Inane.

Rakiel said:

While I agree with most of what you have said, a minor quibble: Red-dot sights do not work with semi and full-auto bursts.

Your main point remains valid, and I would hazard that the removal of the point-blank bonus (and a potential -20 to hit in melee) was a deliberate effort to make actual melee weapons a viable contender to firearms.

Khouri said:

Chainswords, even with only a 2 or 3 Strength bonus, will always be viable. Melee gets used a little more often in my most recent game because its been inside of several large hives that don't have the wide open Field of fire that you need for ranged combat to be sup er seccusful.

Herp derp, yeah, I knew there was a disadvantage of posting at 4AM. Red dots cant be used in full auto, but the otherwise still massive +BS stands and would create an issue.