So, a bit of background to the post. My group have found a wrecked ship belonging to another rogue trader and are exploring it. Due to the nature of the wreck (the full story's not important, but I can reveal it for those who are curious), the ship's now overrun with warp beasts and Orks. In addition to this, there's a mysterious entity that has access to the ship's public vox-systems and has been driving any crew who'll listen insane with his revelations. The remaining crew are fairly certain that it's a daemon more powerful than the ones they've faced so far, and the party seem to be going along with that assumption.

So, how about this: This entity is the ship's Machine Spirit? It knows that the crew are planning to scrap/destroy it as soon as they can, and it doesn't really want this. So it's actively trying to stop them, while also helping the party explore and survive in order to build up their gratitude, so it can ask for a skeleton staff from their crew, one who'll work to repair the ship and keep it running.

I really like the twist, but what do you guys think?

It’s worth remembering that Machine Spirits, even powerful ones like on board a ship, are not self-aware. They may have complex programs and ‘personality’ programming quarks, even some kind of spiritual power, but they have no sense of self, and therefore cannot directly interact with the players. (There’s a little blurb about this near to the Machine Spirit Oddityies I think)

That being said, what you suggested is still possible if something caused the Machine Spirit to change. Yu’vah based Warp-Code, for example, or a heretical AI devise the foolish rogue trader installed. Or, of course, a possessing demonic spirit. It doesn’t have to be obvious, or even play much of a role in the adventure, but its important to have a reason so the players don’t try to strike up a conversation with their own ship when they get back. It’s also good for the Explorator (if present) to know that such things are heresy, evil, impossible, etc.

Love your idea, though I'm going to slightly disagree with quicksilver.

The term "machine spirit" describes a lot of things: routine maitenence problems, the simple logic circuitry in las weaponry, semi-sentient computer cores, fully sentient Land Raiders, etc.

And it isn't a linear scale from dumb to smart. You have incredibly intelligent but totally non-sentient super computer cores as well as simple dumb but nearly fully sentient las weapons.

The thing is the roots of the machine spirit go back over 15k years into the dark age of technology when fully sentient AI was common. Some of those have survived, mostly of the dumb can-opener/laspistol variety, transfering themselves to new equipment over the centuries going ever more insane, or creating "children" by infecting and changing STC patterns.

You also have chaos incursions warping programs, perhaps giving them something like sentience and a malignant will.

You have the issue of regular human electronic warfare during the Horus Heresy as the ad-mech waged a civil war upon itself, further warping the programming of Imperial Machinery.

Finally you have the effects of alien tech interacting and warping Imperial programs.

Quicksilver is correct the the RT book makes note that most ships are not truly sentient. In ideal circumstances the tech-priests don't allow that to happen. Memory wipes and repairs make sure of it. But without proper maintanence it is very possible. The SM Codex gives an example of a Land Raider that was able to wage a war against orks to avenge its dead crew. Just make sure you build up a good background for it.

Possible justifications:
1) a relic AI or "child" AI from the Dark Age
2) side effect of interfacing with Xenotech or chaos
3) simple lack of matenance
4) (my favorite) a gestalt intelligence formed due to the interaction of the thousands of machine spirits that make up the ships systems
5) It slowly gained sentience over the course of thousands of years of service, but while it was crewed it never occurred to the intelligence to do anything but what it was told. Sometime during its isolation, with no one there to maintain or command it, it developed the idea of doing things for itself out of necessity.
6) A boarderline blasphemous sect of the Ad-mech tried to push programming as far as they could. They pushed too far!!!

Hmm, all good ideas. One thing that was suggested on another forum is that the MS is housed in some object (like a block of psy-reactive material, a la Pontius Glaw) that can be spared as an alternate method for the party to solve the situation (salvage the MS while still allowing the wreck to get destroyed), which fits with your suggestion #2. I don't really like 1 or 6 as it's just a random RT's ship, and if they had access to DAoT items or state-of-the-art admech experiments then they'd probably be famous. 5 and 3 do make sense to me, but they don't stand out as much as 4 or 2 for me. I think I prefer 4, because I can do something similar to the Iron Cage with them. Build them up to a dramatic face-to-face in the heart of the ship's systems, only to find that there's nothing there. Of course, that allows for some erratic behaviour of the MS, as the weapon systems are suggesting the most aggressive course while the comms systems say something different. Maybe the behaviour changes depending on where the party are? I'm kind of running away with myself here, so I'll take a stop for breath and see what comments I get back.

Hi Ripliksash,

I thinkt that Quicksilver is in fact quiet right. In order to be behave the way the ship is intended to do falls in the categories the Mechanicus defines as sinfull. If the ship would merely defend itself like a guard servitore would, following some pre-griven programming. But no, as stated the ship is schemeing and it is planing and comes up with creative approaches to a very specific problem, tailoring solutions based on the specific problem.
It does thereby at least emulate real, living personality. And even that is something the Mechanicus is not willing to stomach.

Right, ok. So it seems that if I want to go through with this plan, then some form of corrupting influence is required. I'll probably go for the psy-active material block idea, it being some kind of xenotech that interfaces weirdly with the ship's own semi-sentient machine spirit, resulting in this kind of objectively insane ai.

Maybe Heretek's upgraded the ship's Machine Spirit to a "Genius Loci"?

Gregorius21778 you are correct that that IS what the FF RT rulebook says, but NOT what the rest of the fluff indicates, the most prominent example being the passage of the SM Codex I mentioned. There it outright states that what the machanus calls a "powerful machine spirit" is actually an AI fully capable of acting on its own and even fighting geurilla wars by itself.

There are numerous pieces of fluff that indicate that AIs are not quite as extinct as the mechanus tells people, and that having a new one emerge, though rare, is not unheard of. The ad-mech tries to keep that from happening, but on the occasion where they actually WANT an AI they simply call it a "powerful machine spirit" and the rest of the imperium is too ignorant of technology say recognize them for what they are.

I really like the idea that the programming was really advanced and the ad-mechs caring for it were skirting heresy but that it behaved while people were around and only become fully sentient when there was no one around to do stuff for it. Necessity driving evolution. The programming required would be borderline heretical anyway but hey, not all ad-mech tow the same line on these things. Whats orthodox one century might be grave heresy the next, then orthodox then century after that.

So, xenotech isn't necessary? It could just be caused by an overly-experimental explorator, tech-priest etc

riplikash said:

Actualy, no-AI is what MOST of the fluff says, athough there are a small set of out lyers like SM codex example. AIs are supposed to be destroyed on sight, down to and likely including that Land Raider (although it might get more of euthinasia at the hands of the tech marine). Besides spelling it out very exactly in some of the older (1st and 2nd ed) forces of the imperiom codexes and covering it in the Tau codex, its also covered in a few of the black library novels, such as Mechanicum, where it features prominantly.

So no, Xeno tech is not nessisary, but it is an unusual situation that results in a true Abomitable Intelliigance being created.

I fully agree. I was not trying to imply AI was common, or even just uncommon. As I indicated in my second post, it is VERY rare, but not unheard of.

Like you said, the Ad-Mechs official position is it is destroyed on site, and in most of the fluff AI is not present.

But it is not unheard of. It appears in enough of the fluff to indicate some AIs still exist and new ones occasionally manifest, which is what all of my suggestions pointed too. Certainly, just as the rulebook states, nearly every ships Machine Spirit will not be sentient. But it is possible, though remotely so.

The other point I was trying to make is that you have a range of sentience. There is ample fluff support that many machine spirits, though not truly sentient, have taken on some of the traits of sentience. No they can't hold a conversation or be reasoned with, but they do have 'moods' and preferences, something like a pet or a beast of burden. They aren't sentient, but they also aren't quite inanimate, instead being somewhere inbetween. They can't plan or plot, but they can react and become ill-tempered.

Machines definoutly have quarks and 'personalities' even when they don't have true intelligance. In many ways thats the whole basis behind the 'Machine Spirit Oddities' table. I was just pointeing out that having oddities, personality, acting on its own and being refered like a living creature does not an actual intelligant machine make. I think you may have hit it with "not inanimate, but not intelligant"

Even the spirit of your bolt-gun must be reveared if you want to avoid untimely gun jams.

I tend to be on board with the idea of an AI from the Dark Age of Technology. We know that they can survive for centuries, and this AI might have had the presence of mind to be a good lil' Machine Spirit as long as all goes well, bestowing such bonusses as Ancient and Wise on the ship. If the players can forge a good relationship with it or can be tricked into salvaging the ship and restoring it to full glory they can potentially gain a great ally, with a future plotseed if the Adeptus Mechanicus find out that the players have an Archeotech AI Cogitator Core in their ship...

If the players 'take ownership' of the ship, the AI or something similar, it pays to keep in mind that even good Imperial AI are quirky and nowhere near as clear and logical as for instance Star Trek 's LCAR system or the AI's popularized by mainstream sci-fi. It'll probably give them nice bonusses, a little trouble now and then and a potentially 'interesting' relationship with the Adeptus Mechanicus, but not talk to them in full sentences or serve them Earl Grey...

I don't know if i'll be branded as Captain Obvious for stating this, but...

You are the game master. You do what you feel is right. Fluff is only there to support you. If you don't like it, don't roll with it. In your universe, AI exists. Easy as that.

Dvil said:

In my opinon. Xeno-Tech is not necessary. In the "dark ages of technology" mankind build things like this, so some heretek could have re-invented it, developed it or simply found some piece of ArcheoTek and put it to use on said vessel. "Things happen"