My goal since learning to play is to find a set of cards that was well rounded but importantly could win against the Orc/Skaven Rush decks since they are dominating the field right now. After long hours playtesting and tuning, swapping cards and testing some more. I finally found a set that I think can win reliably. Here it is.

Units:

3 x Shades

3 x Vile Sorceress

3 x Night Goblins (to destroy attachments and you can use Vile Sorceress to lower his HP if you need to bounce him with Har Ganeth to play and destroy another attachment)

3 x Savage Marauders (good first turn play for 5 power 2nd turn)

3 x Dark Zealot

3 x Bloodsworn (ideally 2nd turn play)

3 x Scheming Cultist (combo with Seduced and Chillwind to corrupt enemy units)

2 x Maledictor of Tzeentch

Tactics:

3 x Easy Pickin's

3 x We Need your Blood

3 x Chillwind

3 x Seduced by Darkness

3 x Tzeentch's Firestorm

Support:

3 x Cloud of Flies

2 x Daemon Sword

3 x Har Ganeth

3 x Contested Village

3 x Warpstone Excavation

Almost every card is designed to deal with enemy units or attachments (no support card destruction, but if needed, could easily sideboard pillage) An early Har Ganeth / Vile Sorceress or Shade will work to disrupt the tempo of the other player. Play your unit destruction cards asap to gain the tempo advantage. Use Daemonsword to pump up a Bloodsworn or Savage Marauders in the battlefield. Cloud of Flies on Bloodsworn is an excellent combo but don't be afraid to play cloud of flies on a dark zealot early in the game. Scheming Cultist is a new addition from the recent expansion and does a great job of replacing nurgle sorcerer.

Clamitus posted an Orc/Skaven deck that he challenged for us to post a deck that beat it >50% of the time. This is the deck. This would definately have problems against bolt thrower, but sideboard in 3 gutterrunners for an additional scouts and it will help.

Have you actually tested this vs. the Orc/Skaven build or is this pure theory?

Because this list looks MUCH slower & MUCH less consistent than chaos/skaven and DE/skaven control lists we've tested extensively vs. orc/skaven, with the latter always coming out ahead.

Theorycraft time...

I am guessing without testing that this list loses to properly played orc/skaven on the order of 65-75% of the time. Deathmaster completely wrecks you, demanding that you have the answer in-hand immediately or lose (and you have no Deathmaster to trump theirs). You will spend too much time casting spells that don't improve your board position while Skaven happily re-ups by drawing 3, playing 2-3 cards every turn, eventually forcing you to choose between answering Skaven's threats or developing your own draw engine. Without Innovation in the deck (a GLARING MISTAKE by the way), you are going to start considerably slower than Skaven is in terms of kingdom/quest development. And all the while, you're fighting through powerful disruption spells like Lobber Crew and Pillage, with no answer on your side of the table to stop their resource/draw engine.

So yeah, if you've actually tested this and have some anecdotes that perhaps illustrate some flaws in my thinking, great, I'd love to hear them.

Yep, I tested it verse Clamitus orc/skaven. I will post some play by play games in a few. Yes Lobber crew sucks but also does an early Vile Sorceress or Har Ganeth for the opponent. Lucky draws on either side will win the game of course, but if neither side drew lucky, and the game is considered fair at that point, then the direct damage effect for this deck slows the rush. I would love to put innovate in there, wonder what I should take out?

I definitely feel that you've correctly identified most of the cards that are good vs Skaven aggro decks, but you having some pretty serious issues here:

First, you're playing a TON of cards that are cross-factioned with zero Alliances. Because of this, I don't see how you're able to keep up with any aggro deck as you're playing 1 card a turn no matter how many cards you're drawing and they're playing upwards of 3 or more.

Second, like ddm mentioned, you don't have Innovation. This goes along with issue number 1 in that you're just too slow.

I'm not sure who you're testing with, but they're definitely not doing something right. if you're the better player in your group, maybe you should swap decks with your buddy and see what I'm saying. There's a reason Orc/Skaven and along the same lines every other Skaven deck always do well: consistency, speed, and power. You can't really just toss in the best control cards from every destruction race and think you can beat them because you lack 2 of the 3 things that they do: consistency and speed.

You have to look at decks from those 3 angles. First, is your deck as fast as Skaven? You don't have to be pumping out dudes like they do, but you have to be able to not die on turn 3-4. Is your deck as powerful as Skaven? Do you have cards along the lines of Deathmaster? Can you deal with a Deathmaster pretty reliably? Cards along these lines are IMO: Lobber Crew, Zealot Hunter, and many of the destruction removal tactics as well as Judgement of Verena with some maneuvering. And finally, are you consistent? This, to me, is the most important. If your deck can consistently set up its economy and card drawing then you're going to be doing ok. This was my biggest issue with Chaos. They has a lot of REALLY good cards, but they're support cards are complete and utter crap. They relied on characters to provide an economy and card draw and as such get completely destroyed by Judgement and Troll Vomit as well as Flames of the Phoenix.

I'm not trying to dog on your deck. I think it's an OK deck, it just needs quite a bit of work before it's "World Championships" quality.

- SF

I see your point, thank you for the analysis. How about

-3 bloodsworn - +3 deathmaster

-3 cloud of lies - +3 gutter runners

-3 scheming cultists - +3 lobber crew

that should help a little but I don't want to make it a cookie cutter skaven deck. I refuse to think that there is not a way to beat rush than at its own game. Maybe after the new cards are released some help will be had.

Gutter Runners are terrible. Play Moulder's Elite if you're just looking to splash a Skaven package. And really, if you're already running those, Greyseer is a better finisher than anything you're suggesting here too. At which point you may as well play Clan Rats. Heh...

Anyway, I think all this emphasis on "beating rush" etc is misplaced... this game is just really fast with all the cheap resource acceleration in the format. Innovation, Warpstone Excavation and Contested Village means successful decks just have to play at a certain pace. Its like playing Vintage MTG... the format can be diverse and healthy with plenty of angles to attack, but also be really fast due to the presence of busted resource accelerators like Lotus, Workshop, Moxes, etc.

Basically, until they ban or somehow rotate the core 9 (and stop printing stuff like Mining Tunnels, Derriksburg Forge, etc...) the game just is this speed. You are swimming upriver trying to play decks as slow as the one you're suggesting here.

I took your advice and went DE /skaven / with some orcs. You're right, chaos does rely on units for its economy. I do have some questions with this deck though, a lot of strange situations came up. Here is the list

UNIT

3 x Lobber Crew

3 x Vile Sorceress

3 x Night Goblins

3 x Gutter Runners (they are not that terrible since I'm using chillwind)

3 x Shade

3 x Deathmaster

2 x Malus Darkblade (for mid game)

3 x Morathi's Pegasus

TACTICS

2 x Take Captive

3 x Chillwind

3 x We need your blood

3 x Hate

3 x Innovation

3 x Easy Pickins

SUPPORT

3 x Contested Village

3 x Warpstone

3 x Orc/De banner

My question is, how do Lobber Crew and Deathmaster interact with their mirrors. eg. Lobber Crew sacs when opponent has a Lobber crew. And how do Deathmasters treat each other. Is it who corrupts first loses? Did you really play magic back in the day? I started around tempest and fell off around fifth dawn, too expensive, but Magic Workstation is awesome.

Yeah I still play competitive MTG.

Lobber Crew's ability is action speed, uses the stack, and can be responded to. Also, sacrificing Lobber Crew is part of the cost to use the ability. So, when the ability is placed on the stack, Lobber Crew is already in the bin as part of paying the cost to use it.

An example... lets say you and your opponent each have 2 units in play, a Lobber Crew and a Spider Rider for both of you. He uses his Lobber Crew's ability, paying the cost of sacrificing his Lobber Crew and putting the ability on the stack. You now have a chance to respond, say by using your Lobber Crew as well. Now the stack is (1) his Lobber Crew ability, (2) your Lobber Crew ability, your opponent has priority and both Lobber Crews are in the respective players' discard piles. Assuming you both pass priority, the stack resolves last in, first out. So your Lobber Crew ability resolves first, forcing him to sac a creature (his Spider Rider), then his Lobber Crew ability resolves next, forcing you to sac a creature (your Spider Rider). Note that you do not have an opportunity to play effects in between the resolution of (2) and (1); in W:I, once both players pass priority, everything on the stack resolves in sequence before either player has priority to play spells or effects.

Deathmaster is a bit more complicated. His ability checks target legality both at announce time and at resolution. So lets consider the classic "Mexican Standoff" case of two Deathmasters facing each other down with only 1 other Skaven in play, say a Clan Rat you control.

Lets say your opponent is dumb and fires first. He corrupts his Deathmaster (as part of the cost to play the ability) targeting yours. We check the Skaven count to make sure the target is legal, and we find his Deathmaster, your Deathmaster, and your Clan Rat, for Skaven count = 3. (Remember that Deathmaster counts all Skaven in play, not just all Skaven you control). Since the Skaven count of 3 is higher than the intended target's remaining hp of 2, the target is legal and the ability is placed on the stack. You now have a chance to respond with spells or effects, and you choose to activate your Deathmaster in response, targeting his Deathmaster. Same check as before, its a legal target, your Deathmaster is corrupted and his ability goes on the stack. Stack is now (1) his Deathmaster's ability, targeting your Deathmaster, (2) your Deathmaster's ability, targeting his Deathmaster. Both players pass priority, and the stack resolves last-in, first-out. Your Deathmaster's ability resolves first, checking again at resolution time that the target is still legal. Since no Skaven have left play and the Skaven count is still 3 which is greater than the target's remaining hp of 2, the target is legal and the effect resolves, destroying the opponent's Deathmaster. Now his Deathmaster's ability attempts to resolve, but when it goes to check the number of Skaven in play it only finds 2. Since 2 is not greater than the remaining hp of the target (also 2) the ability is cancelled and does nothing. Like I said, your opponent is dumb!

Note another confusing element of Deathmaster's templating... "remaining hp" literally means the amount of hp printed on the card, minus any effects which are lowering hp. This does not include damage on the unit! In the above scenario, if your Deathmaster had 1 damage on it, it would still not be destroyed by the opposing Deathmaster's ability because its remaining hp is still 2, even if it has a damage on it. Only "minus X hp" effects like Vile Sorceress or We Need Your Blood can lower the remaining hp of a unit.

Make sense? Any other questions?

Thanks for the details. It makes sense to me. Hey check this out. I updated the last deck I posted in this thread with..

- 3 gutter runners +3 dark initiate
-3 morathi's pegasus +3 snotling saboteur

I have played at least 10 games now and the DE wins most of the time. Here is a play by play of the last game I tested. Let me know if I'm playing orcs wrong. A couple games I was able to get Malus out on the third turn and this game particular played most of the match with only 4 power (and innovations)

TURN 1 ORCS
village to K, warpstone to Q, chaos/orc banner to Q

TURN 1 DE
orc/de banner to kingdom, develop Q

TURN 2 ORC
spider to B, greyseer to Q, attack Q for 4
DE play we need your blood on greyseer
2 dmg to Q

TURN 2 DE
develop Q, innovation, malus darkblade to B
attack B for 3
Spider rider destroyed

TURN 3 ORC
greyseer to Q with choppa, attack Q for 4

TURN 3 DE
deathmaster to Q, destroys greyseer
warpstone to q
attack Q for 3

TURN 4 ORC
clan rat w/ choppa + spider to B
attack Q for 5 and burn

TURN 4 DE
sorceress to Q
deathmaster kills spider rider
we need your blood kills clan rats
attack Q for 3

TURN 5 ORC
deathmaster to K

TURN 5 DE
lobber crew to K, orcs sac deathmaster
innovation for 2
har ganeth to K
attack orc Q and burn

TURN 6 ORC
innovation for 1
clan moulders + crooked teef to B
lobber crew to K and sac
DE sac vile sorceress
attack K for 3
deathmaster kills crooked teef
2 dmg to K

TURN 6 DE
develop K
easy pickins kills clan moulders
night goblins to B
dark initiate to K
attack K for 4

TURN 7 ORC
develop K, innovate for 2
clan moulder, crooked teef to B
greyseer to Q
attack K for 7
DE deathmaster kills greyseer
dark initiate blocks and 2 dmg to K

TURN 7 DE
develop K, saboteurs to K
innovation for 2
deathmaster to K
attack K for 4 and win

EDIT; in retrospect, Dark Initiate has to go because he has the chance to render easy pickins useless. Any thoughts for a card that could fill that slot?

Impossible to comment meaningfully without knowing the cards in hand of both players & what they drew each turn.

But, play errors...

Orc turn 2: Greyseer should be corrupted when he comes into play, so you didnt attack with him that turn (not that it mattered)

DE turn 2: I dont think you are reading Innovation properly... you didnt have the resources to play Malus there, unless on turns 1 & 2 you developed Kingdom, not Quest...

Orc turn 3: Choppa can only target units in your battlefield.

DE turn 3: using Deathmaster on your turn there seems really awful.

yeah, innovation does say "kingdom" ok. I sometimes don't read the details and miss little stuff like that. For example, choppa saying battlefield. However, I do feel that this deck is really well built. I took out Dark Initiate and added Cloud of Flies. It's a one cost and could help early on killing an opposing 1 hp unit. Most of my units are 2 hp at least. The Night Goblins and Snotling Sabotuers help with support cards and developments. I hope you will consider checking this deck out. I think its pretty good, but then again, I'm only playing against 1 type of deck currently and that's orcs (because I feel these decks are about the same speed) I would love to test it against something else if you have anything in mind.

Unfortunately, I think you're just seeing how powerful Deathmaster is here... generally speaking, any reasonable draw that gets a Deathmaster online early when the opponent doesnt have an immediate answer for him is going to lead to a win. This is why testing Skaven mirrors is so annoying - its extremely hard to find the optimal build without grinding dozens of matches. Too often, 80%+ of the cards in your deck just don't matter at all. You could be drawing the ace of spades every turn, as long as you get an unopposed Deathmaster you're just so far ahead on tempo, board presence and resource generation that you rarely lose.

If you're the best player in your playgroup, I suggest you start with the Orc/Skaven list Clamatius and I have tuned for standard and really learn that list and why it works. You need to play around the opponent's tricks (IE running out your Deathmaster when you have no other units in play against an opponent running Lobber Crews seems really loose unless you end up net positive even if the opponent has the Lobber Crew). We've already run plenty of unit-removal based control lists against the Skaven and the control decks just do not stand up at all. Orc/Skaven has too many threats; Moulder's Elite in particular are extremely hard for destruction to deal with. Too, your deck seems like it loses HARD to Troll Vomit since your support count is so low, and the average cost of your units is relatively quite high.

Look up the dwarves list Clamatius posted if you want a change of pace... but I warn you that the deck is substantially more difficult to play properly (and to play against properly) than Skaven builds. It could easily seem either really bad, or really good, just based on play mistakes rather than the true strength of the deck. So again, my recommendation is to really learn Orc/Skaven inside and out if you want to be playing tier 1 decks - it will improve your game a lot and help lead to insights as to what can and can't work in the format.

The only skaven I have in the deck are the deathmasters and I figure if the opponent doesn't have skaven, then they are played as developments. The clan moulder elite was never a problem because of easy pickins. If there was a spider rider or crooked teef in play I would kill it first with we need your blood so the clan moulder was the lowest cost in play. I guess I'm not doing something right because this deck beat your orc/skaven almost every time. Granted I was barely surviving with 1 section burning before I turned the tables. If orc/skaven is winning most of the time, and this deck beats it, then I'm on the right track.

I guess we won't really know unless you test out this list against the orc/skaven since you know how to play that deck having tuned it with Clamatius. I just think it's odd that you post a deck claiming it to be the best there is and challenge others to make a list that beats it >50% of the time, and then when someone posts a deck that might have a chance, you shoot it down without playtesting it yourself.

I realize I made some errors in the game post (innovation only counting kingdom, choppa only in battlefield, but those mistakes did not make the game a loss for orc/skaven.) i will post another play by play with starting hand and draws if you care to read it.

You mentioned Troll Vomit and I say, of course, there will always be some other card or deck that will be the bane of the current deck we are theorizing about. I think part of winning a tournament is sometimes lucky. Lucky you didn't play against the one deck yours was vulnerable against. And you also mention the first to draw a deathmaster usually wins. But with this deck an early Har Ganeth or Vile Sorceress also can clutch the game especially if they are in tandem. Any 2 hp unit you have is bounced, now you can't play 1 hp units and 2 hp have to be played every turn.

Clamatius is on vacation atm, so I can't playtest anything, or I would

But from a theory pov, we have tested plenty of decks that are trying to do what your list is trying to do: beat the orc/skaven list by playing a lot of removal and midrange fatties. Maybe you've cracked the code but I'm not seeing it. The key from the skaven side of the table is playing around your tricks. Don't run out a Choppa on a Spider Rider if you would get wrecked by WNYB (unless the risk is worth it, IE either you win if they dont have it, or you have enough gas not to worry about it), dont run out your Deathmaster if you'd get wrecked by Lobber Crew, etc.

Basically the gamestate the Skaven deck is trying to achieve is either 1) they play their hand and burn 2 zones before you can do anything, with minimal investment in kingdom/quest, or 2) they play to 4-5 power in kingdom, 2-4 power in quest and out-attrition you with card quality by posing questions to which you must have the answer every turn. I suspect most people think option 1 is the prevailing way Skaven wins but it is actually only a very small part of the deck's strategy and knowing when to go "all-in" vs. go for attrition is the key skill-testing aspect of playing the deck. Orc/Skaven can win attrition wars despite playing a lot of cheap guys because they have pound for pound the highest quality, most efficient cards in the entire set - nothing compares to Spider Riders, Moulder's Elite, Deathmaster, Greyseer etc at doing what they do. Incidentally, thats why support-heavy Orc/Skaven running 2x Troll Vomit is so devastating - the right mindset when playing the deck is to toss your hand on the board every turn, as if asking the opponent, "have an answer to this?". When you're drawing enough cards/turn, eventually they won't, or eventually you'll reset the board state with Vomit and keep right on asking the questions. A unit-heavy deck that lacks support removal (like yours) will lose to this, a lot.

If you want to document some games, I'd be happy to walk through them and explore lines of play etc.

ddm5182 said:

I will definatley post some game plays but with more detail (card draws, etc.) And just so we are clear, this is the deck list I'm playing against

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=155&efcid=4&efidt=315197

Really Greyseer and Clan Moulders rarely stay alive long enough to attack, maybe once at that. The only card in this deck not really used is the snotling saboteur, but I feel he's the best for the slot and will have a use some time or another (maybe only need two but not sure yet). I also am testing replacing cloud of flies with prepare for war instead to get back needed WNYB or other units. I have pulled off surprise innovations then take captive to kill off two enemy units, Used chillwind to use deathmaster twice in one round and other not easily seen card interactions that take place and are found through game testing. Hate is just wonderful if you get 2 in one early turn. There are a lot of 1st and 2nd turn plays (har ganeth, vile sorceress, lobber crew, shades, deathmaster, warpstone, c.village and a 2nd or 3rd turn Malus is not out of the question) with plenty of cheap removal in the meantime.

Also,a problem I might be having is I am the only one who plays. I taught my friend how but he doesn't have prior MTG experience like I do so it's not clicking as fast for him as it is for me (he's still learning the stack). I try to play fair though as you'll see from upcoming gameplays. I will post a couple here tomorrow. At any rate, thanks for your willingness to theorize about this deck. As I mentioned, I don't have much input from other players except through this board.

Cheers.

Here are a couple games I played this morning. Note: these were the first two games. Very early on the DE deck establishes control by removing enemy units or support cards. Even an early deathmaster by the orcs is no big deal because the DE has way too many ways to deal with it. Early in the game the orcs are stuck and cannot play anything or it will get destroyed by the DE all the while De is drawing more cards and getting more removal. I just don't think orcs can keep up with this deck.

Here are the play by plays.

Game 1

Orc starting hand
c.village x2, lobber crew, pillage x2, warpstone, deathmaster

De start hand
3 X we need your blood and mulligans to shuffle cards more
warpstone, innovation x2, mauls, v. sorceress, har ganeth, c. village

TURN 1 DE
warpstone + c.village + har ganeth to K
innovation played as D to K

TURN 1 ORC
draw snotlings
lobber crew to K
warpstone to K
c.village to Q

TURN 2 DE
draw WNYB and play on Lobber crew
v. sorceress to Q

TURN 2 ORC
draw deathmaster and spider rider
c.village to Q
pillage har ganeth

TURN 3 DE
draw deathmaster and hate
deathmaster to Q

TURN 3 ORC
draw clan moulder, crooked teef
DE play hate and take 1 resource
clan moulder to B and attack K for 2

TURN 4 DE
draw 2 n. goblin, c/de alliance, WNYB
n goblin to K as D.
innovation for 2
malus to B attack K for 3

TURN 4 ORC
draw lobber crew, innovation, alliance
deathmaster to Q
attack K for 2

TURN 5 DE
v sorceress targets deathmaster
draw easy pickins, lobber crew, c. village, hate
WNYB finishes off deathmaster
lobber crew to K, sac, orcs sac clan moulders
attack K for 3

TURN 5 ORC
after K phase, DE plays Hate
warpstone to q, choppa to K as D
innovation, rat ogres to k

TURN 6 DE
draw alliance, s saboteur, shades, innovation
easy pickins to K as D. innovation
shades, s saboteur to B attack Q for 5 and discard (spider riders)

TURN 6 ORC
sac lobber crew, de sac s. saboteur
snotlings and crooked teef to B
attack K for 3
deathmaster kills crooked teef

TURN 7 DE
draw har ganeth, hate, lobber crew, s sabotuers
s saboteurs to B, har ganeth to K
attack K for 5 and burn

TURN 7 ORC
deathmaster to Q
seduced on de deathmaster, then corrupt deathmaster to destroy him
crooked teef with choppa to B and attack for 5 burning K

TURN 8 DE
v. sorceress targets deathmaster, har ganeth bounces him
draw cards (doesn't matter what they are because the attack this turn wins the game

Game 2

DE starting hand
innovation, hate, har ganeth x2, s. saboteur, c.village, deathmaster

orc starting hand
deathmaster, spider, greyseer x2, snotling, lobber crew, innovation

TURN 1 DE
har ganeth to K as development
c.village + har ganeth to K

TURN 1 ORC
end of kingdom de play hate
draw clan rats and play lobber crew to K

TURN 2 DE
draw we need your blood and play on lobber crew
death master to Q

TURN 2 ORC
draw choppa and play as D to K
innovation, deathmaster to K

TURN 3 DE
Lobber crew to K and sac, orc sacs deathmaster
N. goblin to B and attack Q for 1

TURN 3 ORC
draw C/O alliance and play to K

TURN 4 DE
draw innovation, easy pickins, night goblins
s sabotuers to B, attack Q for 2
innovation for 1, sac saboteurs to destroy orc alliance

TURN 4 ORC
draw pillage
can't play any units because they will be destroyed when they hit the table

TURN 5 DE
draw warpstone, shades, c.village
shades, n. goblin to B attack for 3 and a discard
Q burns and discard spider rider

TURN 5 ORC
still unable to play anything

TURN 6 DE
draw take captive, malus, hate
malus to B attack K for 6

Orc concedes

I made some slight adjustments. Snotling Saboteur was just too slow in my opinion. 6 resources to destroy a support card. So I started looking at Rip dere heads off and then Bloodthirster and Grimgoir started looking appealing. I could use them as surprise attacker or blocker or if I needed their effects. If an opponent has toughness or plays master rune of valaya I could rip the bloodthirster and damage won't be cancelled that turn. If I'm ahead in support/development, with some backups in my hand, ripping Grimgoir could be devastating to empire/dwarven development decks and maybe an early rip on the bolt thrower deck to slow it's resource gaining.

So, I went this route

-3 prepare for war

-3 snotling sabotuer

+2 rip dere heads off

+2 bloodthirster

+2 grimgoir

Game 1

Orc starting hand
c.village x2, lobber crew, pillage x2, warpstone, deathmaster

De start hand
3 X we need your blood and mulligans to shuffle cards more
warpstone, innovation x2, mauls, v. sorceress, har ganeth, c. village

Warpstone + double innovation is going to be hard for anyone to beat. DE clearly has the better starting hand here, given that orcs drew all their disruption and no gas. Deathmaster will win the game if they have no removal, but odds are they will since you are presenting no other threats.

TURN 1 DE
warpstone + c.village + har ganeth to K
innovation played as D to K

I would do warpstone to kingdom, contested village to quest, develop malus in kingdom, double innovate into vile sorcs in quest. That way you are drawing 3 cards a turn and exerting board control via the sorcs. Even if they have a lobber crew, you are still in fine shape.

TURN 1 ORC
draw snotlings
lobber crew to K
warpstone to K
c.village to Q

I would at least consider playing warpstone to quest here, as you dont really want to run the Deathmaster out there without any other action, and you need to draw some cards pronto. OTOH if the DE player follows my line of play and innovates out the sorc, I would go warpstone to kingdom, village to quest, use lobber crew on my turn to kill the sorc and prevent him drawing off of it.

TURN 2 DE
draw WNYB and play on Lobber crew
v. sorceress to Q

This is an illegal play. You need two targets for WNYB, one to lose hp and one to gain hp. There's only 1 unit in play. If you play the sorcs, he Lobber Crews it in response to the WNYB. DE player shouldnt have a vile sorc after this turn, so its probably not going to be possible to comment much further on the game...

TURN 2 ORC
draw deathmaster and spider rider
c.village to Q
pillage har ganeth

Even with the crew dying, the orc player has 4 resources and can play Lobber Crew then Pillage with the loyalty provided by the crew... why slowroll the Lobber Crew when they (falsely, but I'll go with it) have a vile sorc in play?

TURN 3 DE
draw deathmaster and hate
deathmaster to Q

TURN 3 ORC
draw clan moulder, crooked teef
DE play hate and take 1 resource
clan moulder to B and attack K for 2

See... the sorcs shouldnt be here, so you can actually play the goblins and beat for 3... I think I'm done commenting on this game...

TURN 4 DE
draw 2 n. goblin, c/de alliance, WNYB
n goblin to K as D.
innovation for 2
malus to B attack K for 3

TURN 4 ORC
draw lobber crew, innovation, alliance
deathmaster to Q
attack K for 2

So you now have 2 Lobber Crews in hand to his 2 units in play (Malus, Deathmaster) and you choose to... play a Deathmaster? Rather than Lobber Crewing x2? No. This is bad.

TURN 5 DE
v sorceress targets deathmaster
draw easy pickins, lobber crew, c. village, hate
WNYB finishes off deathmaster
lobber crew to K, sac, orcs sac clan moulders
attack K for 3

TURN 5 ORC
after K phase, DE plays Hate
warpstone to q, choppa to K as D
innovation, rat ogres to k

TURN 6 DE
draw alliance, s saboteur, shades, innovation
easy pickins to K as D. innovation
shades, s saboteur to B attack Q for 5 and discard (spider riders)

TURN 6 ORC
sac lobber crew, de sac s. saboteur
snotlings and crooked teef to B
attack K for 3
deathmaster kills crooked teef

TURN 7 DE
draw har ganeth, hate, lobber crew, s sabotuers
s saboteurs to B, har ganeth to K
attack K for 5 and burn

TURN 7 ORC
deathmaster to Q
seduced on de deathmaster, then corrupt deathmaster to destroy him
crooked teef with choppa to B and attack for 5 burning K

TURN 8 DE
v. sorceress targets deathmaster, har ganeth bounces him
draw cards (doesn't matter what they are because the attack this turn wins the game

Yeah sorry, I stopped commenting after turn 4. No surprise DE wins when they run the big cheats Orc is misplaying all over the place too.

Game 2

DE starting hand
innovation, hate, har ganeth x2, s. saboteur, c.village, deathmaster

orc starting hand
deathmaster, spider, greyseer x2, snotling, lobber crew, innovation

Pretty godawful hand for orcs here. Fine hand for DE. Again, DE has the advantage with the village + innovation draw.

TURN 1 DE
har ganeth to K as development
c.village + har ganeth to K

Developing Har Ganeth seems sort of loose here, what if they have the pillage? I'd probably develop Snotling Saboteurs here, but then again I wouldnt play with that card

TURN 1 ORC
end of kingdom de play hate
draw clan rats and play lobber crew to K

No... drawing the clan rats actually made this a fine draw. I like innovating into Clan Rats to kingdom, Spider Riders here (developing a Greyseer) and swinging @ quest for 2.

TURN 2 DE
draw we need your blood and play on lobber crew
death master to Q

Sigh. Again with the big cheats. No surprise when you win, considering your Deathmaster hits the bin on this turn if you make a legal play.

TURN 2 ORC
draw choppa and play as D to K
innovation, deathmaster to K

TURN 3 DE
Lobber crew to K and sac, orc sacs deathmaster
N. goblin to B and attack Q for 1

TURN 3 ORC
draw C/O alliance and play to K

TURN 4 DE
draw innovation, easy pickins, night goblins
s sabotuers to B, attack Q for 2
innovation for 1, sac saboteurs to destroy orc alliance

TURN 4 ORC
draw pillage
can't play any units because they will be destroyed when they hit the table

TURN 5 DE
draw warpstone, shades, c.village
shades, n. goblin to B attack for 3 and a discard
Q burns and discard spider rider

TURN 5 ORC
still unable to play anything

TURN 6 DE
draw take captive, malus, hate
malus to B attack K for 6

Orc concedes

Yeah so, you need to play correctly... cheating with WNYB is directly responsible for both of your wins here.

But in general, the biggest thing I am seeing is you are running your Deathmasters into tricks constantly on the orc side. Stop it. Don't play Deathmaster as a 4-cost support with 2 hammers. He needs to come down and impact the board immediately. Also, you are undervaluing putting pressure on the opponent with early attacks and generally making lots of suboptimal plays on the orc side of the table...

Okay then, tell me what went wrong in this game? I tried to make note of situations as they arose and would really like to know what the best play would have been for orcs. This current deck list has changed and I don't think I'll change it for awhile, so if you want the list later for testing I'll give it to you when Clamatius is back from vacation.

orc starting hand
warpstone, clan rats, deathmaster, snotlings, choppa, alliance, c village

de starting hand
alliance, corsairs, v sorceress, wnyb, deathmaster, lobber crew, warpstone

TURN 1 DE
warpstone + lobber crew to K

TURN 1 ORC
draw clan moulders
warpstone to K, cvillage to Q, snotling to B
attack for 2

TURN 2 DE
draw take captive
deathmaster to Q, wnyb kills snotling

TURN 2 ORC
draw cvillage
(now in a situation, any unit played will be destroyed, so which one to play? Have in hand clan rats, clan moulders and deathmaster)
Opponents deathmaster will kill clan master and lobber crew will kill the other two.) So, best choice being sac clan moulders to get rid of lobber crew
clan moulder to B attack for K for 2

TURN 3 DE
sac lobber crew after K phase
draw corsairs, malus, easy pickins
alliance to K, vsorceress to Q

TURN 3 ORC
draw pillage and clan rats
deathmaster to Q

TURN 4 DE
draw cloud of flies, 2 c village, har ganeth
har ganeth to K, corsairs to B
attack K for 1

TURN 4 ORC
draw alliance, clan moulder seduced by darkness, greyseer
clan elite to B with choppa
seduced by darkness on deathmaster
deathmaster kills v sorceress
attack Q for 4

TURN 5 DE
draw hate, innovation, cloud of flies
easy pickins, clan elite is sac'd
malus to B
take captive as D. to K, innovation for 1
cloud of flies on corsairs
attack K for 4 (now at 5 dmg)

TURN 5 ORCS
draw crooked teef, spider riders, seduced
(CURRENTLY has 5 1 hp units that will be killed when they hit the table but is trying to kill opposing deathmaster.)
so, seduced on deathmaster (if opponent corrupts in response, orcs deathmaster will kill him)
orc deathmaster kills de deathmaster
C VILLAGE TO k

TURN 6 DE
corsair cloud of flies to deathmaster for 1 dmg
DRAW deathmaster
deathmaster to Q kills orc deathmaster
attack K for 4 and burn

TURN 6 ORC
draw clan rats, rat ogres, snotling
(so play a couple units and have them destroyed or try to play a bunch all at once?)
clan rats + greyseer to Q
attack for Q for 7

TURN 7 DE
CLOUD OF FLIES kills GREYSEER
har ganeth bounces clan rats
draw malus, lobber crew, night goblins
N GOBLIN + corsairs to B, v sorceress to Q
deathmaster kills clan rats
attack Q for 6

ORCS CAN'T DEFEND AGAINST NEXT ATTACK , DE WIN

Here is a game in which Orcs win. (I'm not biased, just trying to show how these decks play out.)

orc starting hand
clan elite x 2, lobber crew, cvillage, deathmaster, greyseer x2

DE starting hand
easy pickins x2, c.village, malus, lobber crew, deathmaster, har ganeth

TURN 1 ORC (de went first last game)
LOBBER TO K, CVILLAGE TO Q

TURN 1 DE
draw alliance
c.village + har ganeth to K

TURN 2 ORC
draw innovation, seduced
seduced as d. - innovation for 1
clan elite to B, greyseer to Q
attack Q for 5

TURN 2 DE
bounce lobber crew
draw deathmaster
alliance to Q, easy pickins kills clan elite

TURN 3 ORC
draw deathmaster, snotling, alliance
ENEMY has no units yet so lobber crew is useless and greyseer will be bounced next turn
greyseer to K, attack Q for 6 and burn

TURN 3 DE
bounce greyseer in K
draw har ganeth, wnyb
MALUS TO B, attack Q for 3, greyseer blocks because otherwise would be destroyed anyway

TURN 4 ORC
draw rat ogre, we'z bigga
lober to K and sac, malus is sac'd

TURN 4 DE
(forgot to put what I drew here)
HATE FOR 1, lobber crew to K, morathi's pegasus to B
attack Q for 1

TURN 5 ORC
draw rat ogre and alliance
now lobber crew threatens any unit, to get rid of lobber crew, orcs have to waste a turn
so plays snotlings to B, attack K for 2
DE sac to kill snotlings

TURN 5 DE
draw cloud of flies and m. pegasus
cloud of flies on pegasus, other pegasus to B
attack Q for 2

TURN 6 ORC
draw alliance, WARPSTONE
warpstone to K
clan elite to B, attack K for 2

TURN 6 DE
draw corsairs, v sorceress
v sorceress to Q
attack Q for 2 (now at 7 dmg)

TURN 7 ORC
draw clan rats, pillage
(4 out 6 units risk death if played currently, deathmaster cannot be played against vile sorceress because there are not enough rats in play)
so rat ogres to K to help with that
ATTACK K for 2

TURN 7 DE
CLOUD OF FLIES targets rat ogre, v. sorceress targets rat ogre
DRAW shades, v. sorceress, m. pegasus
wnyb target rat ogre AND V. sorceress (now a legal usage of the card) and kills rat ogres
SHADES to B, v. sorceress to Q (now threatens any 2 hp unit that comes into play)
ATTACK Q and burn plus discard (greyseer)

TURN 8 ORC
draw seduced and choppa
rat ogre w/choppa to B, attack for 6 and win

Orcs won this round as I see it would have been a better play to put m. pegasus in the K instead of V. sorceress in Q, but still this was a good game I think.

I'm posting this to show you that Orcs still win but its a close game when they do, not a turn 3 or 4 win.