The sequel to Final Sanction, Oblivion's Edge, is now available...Free!

By FFG Ross Watson, in Deathwatch

Adam France said:

Re what I'd prefer from a sample adventure rather than just a string of combats linked by a storyline thread; really I'd want what I'd expect from any other rpg, as broadly as I can put it is an adventure that presents the pcs with an interesting setting and task, that effectively gives the party a mix of challenges that are not all (or even necessarily mostly) combat oriented.

The thing is if everything is just about combat it will be... boring. It really will.

I find that combat works best in rpgs when it's not a long, regular and grinding process. I love combat as much as the next guy, but it should have context, tension, be descriptive, and preferrably over fairly quickly in real time. If a combat lasts longer than an hour real time I tend to think there's a problem, and if it has taken that long I probably wouldn't want another combat that game session. Any more than that and really are you playing a roleplaying game or a tabletop combat game?

To each their own, but I find that the relative frequency and intensity of combat depends more on the tone and nature of the game and the characters than anything else.

Space Marines are sent into the most dangerous warzones, against the most dangerous enemies. It's their reason for existing. It would seem inappropriate for Space Marines not to face combat more frequently than, say, Rogue Traders or Inquisitorial Acolytes (in both cases, there are numerous preferable alternative methods to achieve similar goals).

That said, I don't see combat and roleplaying as being at odds. Having successfully run various combat-heavy RPs in the past, I've found that (with the right group), the matters of strategy and tactics, and the depth of internal roleplay (that is, interactions between player characters, rather than interactions with NPCs) can be just as entertaining and enthralling as a murder mystery or similar non-combat situation, and that the choices made in combat are no less examples of roleplaying than the choices made during a negotiation.

The key, really, is to ensure that combat doesn't become a grind of the same old attack rolls every round. Objectives, terrain and enemy tactics all change combats in various ways, such that gunning down an angry horde of cultists is a far different prospect to assaulting a fortified position defended by disciplined, well-equipped enemies, which in turn is different from defending fortifications, reinforcing a PDF garrison, escorting an important person or boarding an enemy starship. Think of the difference between the two big combat scenes in Aliens: at first, the protagonists are uncertain as to what the enemy is, and are ambushed largely defenceless due to their circumstances... it's quite different to their last stand later in the movie, as they try and fend off a known enemy, all the while hampered by limited numbers and resources.

The Deathwatch method, IMO, works quite well for interesting combat-heavy RPs. Broad objectives, achievable by any means necessary give players free reign to plot and plan and analyse, and the use of turning points can break up otherwise monotonous and difficult-to-run large battles (its a matter of pacing and focus more than anything else - a turning point gives them a goal beyond "kill as many foes as you can", and can add a sense of urgency).

In essence, the key is to make combat interesting, rather than resigning yourself to the belief that combat is boring. If combat is boring, then you're not really doing it right - the action should be exciting and tense and dangerous.

KjetilKverndokken said:

Hosted Final Sanction, first session 8 hours, and only about 15% forward in part 2 of the adventure. We used much of the time to roleplay happenings with the pdf at the chapel and with the assasin.
And when they arrived at the pdf base, there was a long investigation on the incompetence of the major inside (the infected officer).

So those that do not see the roleplaying oppertunities in the demo's are not looking beyond the headlines, or do not have, maybe, enough experience using a story in a personalized way. Storybooks only give you the backbone of the story, the GM and the players must fill inn the meat.

I agree, we had lots of non-combat interaction opportunities.

Dealing with Syndalla, the governor, the Astropath and her bodyguard. One player took it upon himself to give a rallying speech to the PDF troopers to rally them. We also had the investigation about the rogue officer.

@Adam

Well, if all you want is a game where pcs square off against various strings of 'hordes', 'because that's what DW KILL Teams dos', then I guess this adventure is not too combat heavy. If you want a game on the other hand where the pcs are SMs, but have more to do than just kill things, it is imo too combat heavy and narrowly focused.

I thought DW wasn't just about killing things? Wasn't that what we have been told? Am I wrong? Is this a game just about killing things, with theoretically the occasional bit of minor inter-party angst, or occasionally browbeating of the odd npc here and there?

These are the first two adventures, they are what we are all getting to see first. The template (broadly speaking) of a DW adventure. Just because a great player might be able to pull some roleplaying opportunities out his ying-yang does not mean an adventure doesn't need to present and suggest opportunities and challenges that aren't connected directly to either a strategic or tactical combat issue.

I'm still wondering where you get the feeling there's nothing else in the adventures. While the second part seems more combat heavy, the first is IMO just fine. It's Deathwatch, so there will be combat. However, there's both the interaction with various NPCs (Syndalla, various PDF troopers, the governor, the astropath) and the investigative part of finding out where the broodlord's lair actually is, plus as much sneaking around as the PCs care to. I find it somewhat sad that you never seem to point out exactly why you pay no attention to these parts.

@Kage

Just purely out of interest, I've always seen it as:

Dark Heresy: Action-Investigation
Rogue Trader: Action-Exploration
Deathwatch: Action-?

I disagree with your genre-assumption. IMO, a better categorization would be

Dark Heresy: Action (bust cultist heads)-Investigation (find out which heads are cultist heads)-Exploration (find Things Man Was Not Meant To Know)

Rogue Trader: Action (bust ship bulk-heads)-Exploration (find new worlds to exploit)-Investigation (find out the peculiar and interesting things that happen on exploitable worlds)

Deathwatch: Action (bust every body part of everything not approved by the Imperium)-Exploration (discover interesting places and find new Xenos to kill)-Investigation (find out why someone else is not as busy busting heads as he should be)

All systems contain all three parts, but they each have a different focus.

Cifer said:

Deathwatch: Action (bust every body part of everything not approved by the Imperium)-Exploration (discover interesting places and find new Xenos to kill)-Investigation (find out why someone else is not as busy busting heads as he should be)

All systems contain all three parts, but they each have a different focus.

I think, just for the sake of poetry, that it should be Annihilation or Devastation as the thematic descriptor, rather than merely Action.

Cifer said:

I disagree with your genre-assumption. IMO, a better categorization would be

*facepalms*

And with that, methinks that I shall bow out of this thread.

Kage

Well then Adam, when you have the game, pen adventures that cater more to your tastes lad.

I for one have yet to meet an RPG (or group) that didn't boil down to "What do I have to muck through until the killing part?" in the end equation. Even Vampire usually boiled down to "Who do I get to bite today?" There has been plenty of intrigue, investigation, puzzle solving, and socializing to go around to be sure, but the moments of true vicarious power and heroism usually came from them "kill stuff" parts.

As others point out, with any endeavor of the imagination, you get out what you put in, especially as the GM.

The key question is not "will the game let me", the question is how clever a GM are you?

Deathseed said:

Well then Adam, when you have the game, pen adventures that cater more to your tastes lad.

I for one have yet to meet an RPG (or group) that didn't boil down to "What do I have to muck through until the killing part?" in the end equation. Even Vampire usually boiled down to "Who do I get to bite today?" There has been plenty of intrigue, investigation, puzzle solving, and socializing to go around to be sure, but the moments of true vicarious power and heroism usually came from them "kill stuff" parts.

As others point out, with any endeavor of the imagination, you get out what you put in, especially as the GM.

The key question is not "will the game let me", the question is how clever a GM are you?

Sounds to me like you've only played with the more unreconstructed combat oriented groups, this game should be perfect for such groups. However I'd politely suggest you find some players who want to do more than just kill things, you might find rpgs become a whole lot more fun.

dvang said:

@Adam France:

Adam, I agree that the demo adventures are somewhat combat-oriented. That in no way means that the DW RPG can only be run as combat-oriented. For instance (as an extreme), the DW kill-team could be appointed bodyguards to the sector governor's 6-year old daughter when she's on vacation on a fringe vacation-world. The DW kill-team can endure tea and biscuit parties with the little girl and her stuffed animals for the entire session.

More realistically, they can be agents/bodyguards for an Inquisitor and used to gather intelligence rather than combat.

They could explore a newly unquarantined planet, and not have any combat but encounter strange xenos devices and buildings, gathering and identifying xenos artifacts.

The DW team could be sent to a planet to oversee an evacuation of an important scientific team, say from an oncoming Tyranid invasion, yet only be expected to fight "in case" the enemy shows up early. (and the GM does not actually have the enemy arrive early). The DW team has to use social skills to get the colonists/scientists moved, etc.

And so on.

Bodyguarding, intelligence gathering, exploration, escorting, etc all can be run as non-combat intensive as the GM wants.

Just because the demo adventure has significant combat (showing off the Horde rules, as well as Tyranids), does not mean that the game can only have combat. There are plenty of ways that a GM can run a campaign, which include having minimal or no combat in a session. Don't get too twisted about the demo adventures. It's there to be cinematic and cool, allowing the players and GM to experience some of the new highlights and atmosphere of the DW game (such as Hordes) while facing off against one of the mightiest and most iconic WH40k enemies, Tyranids. It's a small snippet of the game, just like any adventure, and is not the only way the game can be run.

Keep in mind that the combat in the demo adventures is not one long combat, but a series of short combats. Honestly, combat vs Hordes (when they aren't negated by spending friendly hordes) seems to be a matter of just a few rounds before the PCs win (taking a few wounds). The PCs can also get creative if they want to avoid combat, such as scouting ahead to avoid the enemy, using the assault marine (with his superior speed/maneuverability) to lead the enemy away from the others, etc. Heck, the GM might let them get a boat from the manor (private yacht) and sail around to the docks and avoid the majority of the enemy, and so on. It comes down to how creative the players and GM are, really.

Okay ... but weren't we talking about these sample adventures in this thread? I have said they are way too combat oriented for me, and have been told basically either 'what else did you expect' or 'oh you just need to calm them down a bit', both kinda avoiding the point they are VERY heavily, almost absolutely hackfests ... I'm glad to hear the game can cater for more rounded adventures, let's see some evidence for that please FFG?

Evilref said:

Adam France said:

The thing is if everything is just about combat it will be... boring. It really will.

For some reason the answer to this seems to be getting ignored (as it's been said many times but you keep repeating yourself), so I'll try saying it one more time.

It's up to each group whether they want their game to be all about combat...or not. I've pointed out examples of non-combat missions. Other people have as well. At this point it's feeling as if you're just attacking the game for the sake of it.

The sample adventure is not 'all adventures'. It's your game, the book's the toolbox, it's up to you what you make with it.

No the samples aren't all adventures, but as the only two adventures yet seen I'm taking it as a distinct trend that FFG seem to view this as a game pretty much solely about combat. I'm just going on what I've yet seen.

I guess you could have used the Inquisitor game as a more rounded game, indeed I know some people did so, however the game was not written with that in mind. I'm getting worried DW is written pretty much just with combat in mind. That's a bad thing, if true, imo.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Adam France said:

Re what I'd prefer from a sample adventure rather than just a string of combats linked by a storyline thread; really I'd want what I'd expect from any other rpg, as broadly as I can put it is an adventure that presents the pcs with an interesting setting and task, that effectively gives the party a mix of challenges that are not all (or even necessarily mostly) combat oriented.

The thing is if everything is just about combat it will be... boring. It really will.

I find that combat works best in rpgs when it's not a long, regular and grinding process. I love combat as much as the next guy, but it should have context, tension, be descriptive, and preferrably over fairly quickly in real time. If a combat lasts longer than an hour real time I tend to think there's a problem, and if it has taken that long I probably wouldn't want another combat that game session. Any more than that and really are you playing a roleplaying game or a tabletop combat game?

To each their own, but I find that the relative frequency and intensity of combat depends more on the tone and nature of the game and the characters than anything else.

Space Marines are sent into the most dangerous warzones, against the most dangerous enemies. It's their reason for existing. It would seem inappropriate for Space Marines not to face combat more frequently than, say, Rogue Traders or Inquisitorial Acolytes (in both cases, there are numerous preferable alternative methods to achieve similar goals).

That said, I don't see combat and roleplaying as being at odds. Having successfully run various combat-heavy RPs in the past, I've found that (with the right group), the matters of strategy and tactics, and the depth of internal roleplay (that is, interactions between player characters, rather than interactions with NPCs) can be just as entertaining and enthralling as a murder mystery or similar non-combat situation, and that the choices made in combat are no less examples of roleplaying than the choices made during a negotiation.

The key, really, is to ensure that combat doesn't become a grind of the same old attack rolls every round. Objectives, terrain and enemy tactics all change combats in various ways, such that gunning down an angry horde of cultists is a far different prospect to assaulting a fortified position defended by disciplined, well-equipped enemies, which in turn is different from defending fortifications, reinforcing a PDF garrison, escorting an important person or boarding an enemy starship. Think of the difference between the two big combat scenes in Aliens: at first, the protagonists are uncertain as to what the enemy is, and are ambushed largely defenceless due to their circumstances... it's quite different to their last stand later in the movie, as they try and fend off a known enemy, all the while hampered by limited numbers and resources.

The Deathwatch method, IMO, works quite well for interesting combat-heavy RPs. Broad objectives, achievable by any means necessary give players free reign to plot and plan and analyse, and the use of turning points can break up otherwise monotonous and difficult-to-run large battles (its a matter of pacing and focus more than anything else - a turning point gives them a goal beyond "kill as many foes as you can", and can add a sense of urgency).

In essence, the key is to make combat interesting, rather than resigning yourself to the belief that combat is boring. If combat is boring, then you're not really doing it right - the action should be exciting and tense and dangerous.

I pride myself that nothing is boring in my games. Combat is particularly exciting. However just as I would not want a game that focused on any other aspect of rpgs to the effective exclusion of everything else, I don't want or need a game that presumes every session will be a round of battles against various hordes (as these adventures seen seem to suggest).

I also suspect fighting horde after horde may well quickly boil down to repetition. How much choice is there in how you fight a horde? That last stand at the landing pad seemed to me like it offered a few variables, and then it was just 'another horde of tyranids appear, what are you going to do?' - 'shoot at them' etc. A slight exageraion perhaps ... but not much of one.

Adam France said:

No the samples aren't all adventures, but as the only two adventures yet seen I'm taking it as a distinct trend that FFG seem to view this as a game pretty much solely about combat. I'm just going on what I've yet seen.

I guess you could have used the Inquisitor game as a more rounded game, indeed I know some people did so, however the game was not written with that in mind. I'm getting worried DW is written pretty much just with combat in mind. That's a bad thing, if true, imo.

You skipped the main point of my post in order to just make your position again. There have been numerous posts by people taking the time to point out contradictory experience, ideas and options or simply better informed testimony and assertions. These are all ignored or paid lip service by you as a route to saying the same thing again. It's evidently pointless trying to discuss this with you as, based on the evidence, you've no interest in discussing this and just want to make your point over..and over...and over.

Adam France said:

I pride myself that nothing is boring in my games. Combat is particularly exciting. However just as I would not want a game that focused on any other aspect of rpgs to the effective exclusion of everything else, I don't want or need a game that presumes every session will be a round of battles against various hordes (as these adventures seen seem to suggest).

Should you - or any of us - be presuming anything? All we have of Deathwatch is two introductory scenarios - which are inevitably going to be fairly simple in concept to allow them to be picked up and played by anyone. The setting presented encompasses crusade politics and all manner of other things beyond combat, but is a tense political drama or a deep investigation going to be quickly accessible or allow FFG to demonstrate the new rules they want to show off?

Four hours of dialogue is no less monotonous than four hours of the same attack rolls over and over again. The scenarios so far presented may not approach the former, but they're not exactly the latter either; Given how strongly you protest in defence of your skills as a GM, I'd have expected less griping and whining and more pondering about the potential of a given release. Whining serves nothing but one's own ego.

Adam France said:

I also suspect fighting horde after horde may well quickly boil down to repetition. How much choice is there in how you fight a horde? That last stand at the landing pad seemed to me like it offered a few variables, and then it was just 'another horde of tyranids appear, what are you going to do?' - 'shoot at them' etc. A slight exageraion perhaps ... but not much of one.

Looking at the horde rules and using them are two different things, as I found out. Using a horde is like using any enemy, really - the difference is one of scale, in the sense of what the horde represents. That's it.

Waxing indignant about perceived inadequacies in games after only glancing through the rules may well be an old tradition in online communities focussed around wargames and/or roleplaying games, but it really doesn't do anyone or anything any good.

Honestly, Adam, with the way you jab at 4e, you sound like someone who just isn't going to give it a chance. I mean, do you NEED to have Skill Training: Basketweaving for you to roleplay a character who weaves baskets? Both 4e and this seem to offer ample opportunity for those with enough of an imagination to roleplay whatever they may desire.

Lord Richter Castus said:

Honestly, Adam, with the way you jab at 4e, you sound like someone who just isn't going to give it a chance. I mean, do you NEED to have Skill Training: Basketweaving for you to roleplay a character who weaves baskets? Both 4e and this seem to offer ample opportunity for those with enough of an imagination to roleplay whatever they may desire.

Well I'm not going to debate 4e with you. I did give 4e 'a chance' btw.

In answer to your question, do I need a skill for something to allow it to be used by a player? No. But it certainly helps if there is a skill. It helps because it not only clarifies in the mind of both player and GM that the character (as opposed to the player) is skilled in that thing (whether 'Basket Weaving' as in your absurdist example, or ... something a bit more useful such as 'Computer Hacking' say), and gives some idea of how skilled that particular pc might be.

Assuming everyone can do essentially everything (not directly connected to combat) as well as everyone else, indicates to me that those non-combat elements of the game are viewed as essentially less important than the combat side of things. I think that message is what is broadcast to the players to.

I recall arguments when 4e came out, where people (4vengers generally) argued that game systems cannot encourage rounded roleplaying. That certainly isn't my experience. If a system basically focuses on combat to exclusion of all else, combat is the only thing guaranteed to be done well by that system - and in the case of 4e imo even that isn't done well - but that's another argument.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Adam France said:

I pride myself that nothing is boring in my games. Combat is particularly exciting. However just as I would not want a game that focused on any other aspect of rpgs to the effective exclusion of everything else, I don't want or need a game that presumes every session will be a round of battles against various hordes (as these adventures seen seem to suggest).

Should you - or any of us - be presuming anything? All we have of Deathwatch is two introductory scenarios - which are inevitably going to be fairly simple in concept to allow them to be picked up and played by anyone. The setting presented encompasses crusade politics and all manner of other things beyond combat, but is a tense political drama or a deep investigation going to be quickly accessible or allow FFG to demonstrate the new rules they want to show off?

Four hours of dialogue is no less monotonous than four hours of the same attack rolls over and over again. The scenarios so far presented may not approach the former, but they're not exactly the latter either; Given how strongly you protest in defence of your skills as a GM, I'd have expected less griping and whining and more pondering about the potential of a given release. Whining serves nothing but one's own ego.


Why do you assume that I am calling for 4 hours straight dialogue? I've never asked for that.

I wasn't aware I was 'protesting my skills as a GM', I was merely pointing out that I don't think combat is inerantly boring, or that I run combat boringly. As I had somehow been accused as suggesting. I think nothing but combat is almost inevitably going to be boring. That's my point. Yes, of course a good GM can always make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ... however it ain't a good idea to produce sow's ears as your first sample 'taster' modules imo.

I think nothing but combat is almost inevitably going to be boring.

Guess it's good that the demo adventure incorporated quite a bit of other stuff as well, then.

Cifer said:

I think nothing but combat is almost inevitably going to be boring.

Guess it's good that the demo adventure incorporated quite a bit of other stuff as well, then.

The argument is getting very circular. You may believe it was 'quite a bit', I would personally define it as 'a minimal amount of other stuff', but with that I think we shall have to agree to disagree.

I shall check DW out when it is released before buying, but I suspect that as with Ascension I will not be buying this one.

Okay ... but weren't we talking about these sample adventures in this thread? I have said they are way too combat oriented for me, and have been told basically either 'what else did you expect' or 'oh you just need to calm them down a bit', both kinda avoiding the point they are VERY heavily, almost absolutely hackfests ... I'm glad to hear the game can cater for more rounded adventures, let's see some evidence for that please FFG?

Well, what you are saying (or the impression of what you are saying) is that the GAME is too combat oriented, not just the sample adventures. I can understand that the sample adventures can be viewed as combat heavy. What I am saying is, don't judge the game entirely by the sample adventures. Just because the sample adventures can be combat-heavy (should they be run so), does not mean that every game run using the DW rules must be combat heavy.
Do you *really* need actual evidence from FFG that an RPG can be run with minimal combat? I already gave a whole lot of missions/adventure ideas that can easily be minimal combat.

No the samples aren't all adventures, but as the only two adventures yet seen I'm taking it as a distinct trend that FFG seem to view this as a game pretty much solely about combat. I'm just going on what I've yet seen.

I think this is part of your problem. First, the "second" adventure is a logical continuation of the first ... so of course, based on the situation given from the first one, it's going to be fairly similar purely from the predicament the team is situated in. Second, keep in mind that a lot of people *like* having the chance to be a SM and fight off rebels and especially Tyranids. Think Space Hulk and the movie Aliens!. It's a popular concept, and very iconic of SM in general, so it makes good sense to have this sort of situation as an exciting 'teaser' for the game. These aren't the be-all and end-all of the game, and it's an RPG so it can really be pretty much what you want it to be, even when presented with this sort of situation.

However just as I would not want a game that focused on any other aspect of rpgs to the effective exclusion of everything else, I don't want or need a game that presumes every session will be a round of battles against various hordes (as these adventures seen seem to suggest).

It's what you want to get out of it. Firstly, there are Genestealers and the boss mixed in there, so the combat is not always against just Hordes. Secondly, there are plenty of situations where social interaction is needed/required. Talking to the PDF troops at various places (whether to bolster morale, or gain access to the location they are guarding) and talking to the Lord-Governor and gaining his trust are the biggest two off the top of my head. The players can avoid quite a few Hordes if they are creative, or perhaps nullify them without resorting to combat. I had some of those types of moments in my two demo games. If I had been running the game for my group, without a time limit, I bet there would have been a lot more interaction ... not just between the PCs and NPCs, but between the PCs themselves coming to grips with each other being from different Chapters.

The points I am making are these:

- I agree that the demo adventures, as written, have more combat than social situations. However, that does not mean that social situations are "minimal", nor that more social encounters cannot be incorporated and roleplayed. It just means that to save space, the creators didn't write a lot of extra "what if" or dialogue. This is especially true of the Lord Governor (should he survive), where quite a lot of social interaction can take place. It's a ballroom filled with nobles, pretending their world isn't being destroyed (by partying), and a resentful and frightened, but ego-centric, Lord Governor backed by half the PDF force. That's a HUGE situation that absolutely reeks of social interaction, investigation, and by-play. I could probably run a whole session just using that.

- As much as you keep saying it, the demo adventures are not the end-all be-all of the game. Just because the demos are more biased towards combat than social, does not mean that the RPG itself can only do combat, or can only be good at combat. I've mentioned a lot of missions that GMs can use to have minimal combat. There are quite a few, enough to run a good-length campaign. Just like DH acolyte teams can focus more on combat or social, so can DW kill teams. As an example, the players could make their team around a concept of being a specialized stealth/recon team. They primarily go into situations, trying to avoid detection and gather intel or rescue hostages (etc) without alerting the enemy. So, the GM tailors missions and adventures around this team concept. Voila! low-combat campaign. Piece of cake.

Once again, I think that dvang sums it up.

With regards to 4E; I ran a group for 8 months using 4E rules... it reminded me too much of an MMO like WoW. I felt like I was pitting my group up against mini-bosses and they were in a large raid. The focus on combat in 4E... well.. wait a minute... the focus of THE GAME in 4E is combat. Plain and simple.

Death Watch is nothing like 4E. I'm not even talking about mechanics here, I just mean in the general way that the game is played and where the focus is. While no one directly said "Death Watch is the new 4E" I believe that they don't even belong in the same discussion.

Yes, the demos are more combat heavy from the way that they are written. Then again, given the situation of an invading hive fleet... there is no negotiation with the enemy.

The opportunity for roleplaying is everywhere in both demos. The writters of the scenarios didn't point out those opportunities, but given some time reading the scenarios over, a DM could find them rather easily.

Also, any creative DM with enough time on their hands can MAKE story happen where none is written.

From a purely mechanics perspective, the "roleplaying skills" have been hashed out over Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader. There would be no reason to include those options in the limited space they had for their demos. I have no doubt that the "typical" set of skills available in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader will be available in the Death Watch book (yes, I think Forbidden Lore: Xenos will be available to the Space Marines).

dvang said:

Well, what you are saying (or the impression of what you are saying) is that the GAME is too combat oriented, not just the sample adventures.

Completely incidentally, that is not at all the impression that I get. Since Adam France has not seen the game, and indeed would have had to be a playtester to do so, I do not think that it is possible for him to comment on the game. From what I have seen both here and elsewhere, his comments are restricted entirely at the demo scenarios where, with a little bit of judicious tweaking and some inclusion of sidebars and pullouts, it's fairly easy to solve most of his problems. If "combat" is questioned it is only because of the Designer Diary where it was stated that it wasn't just exclusively about combat, hence some of the adventure scenarios that you mentioned, dvang. If anything, if people are inclined to listen, perhaps that is just what Adam France is saying? That is, it would have been great to have one of those adventures than the one presented?

Of course, I shall let Adam France speak for himself. That's just the impression that I get based upon the comments that I've been reading. With that said, it does explain some of the aggressive protectiveness that I've seen if people are taking it as comments against the game rather than the scenario. Regardless of how strange that might be since the game has not been released, it certain does explain much, so thanks for (even if inadvertently) explaining that one!

It's all good. gran_risa.gif

Kage

I actually liked both adventures for the most part. They felt very much like how I imagine 40K and Deathwatch to be. That said, they are very combat heavy as Adam says, and I wouldn't want to run a full campaign in that style. Hopefully FFG backs up its promises of including a healthy amount of non-combat material to the game.

I will say however, that the only way the final part of Oblivion's Edge works for me is as a suicide mission. The idea of a Kill-team boarding a hive ship, disabling it's synapse node, and surviving to tell the tale is completely absurd if you ask me.

Oh and the constant "moral" quandries presented to the team are kind of annoying to me. Every single one of the Marines involved in this mission should have a basic understanding of what a Tyranid invasion is like, and should know full well that trying to rescue civilians is utter folly. The fact that it also has nothing to do with their mission, and, in fact, only serves to jeopardize it, means that no one on the team should have any reaction to civilians other than pity, if they have an emotional reaction at all. For me, the constant opportunities to go out of their way to save what amount to insects in grand scheme of the Imperium amounts to constant invitations for bad roleplaying.

Another thing that kind of bugged me was the treatment of the Lord-Governor Thorsholt. The guy calls the majority of the availble PDF to his manor to protect him, while the rest of the city burns (which would be very obvious to the tactically experienced eyes of all the Battle-Brothers), and yet there is very little within the adventure that indicates what the proper steps would be to deal with him from a Space Marine or Deathwatch perspective. As far as I'm concerned, his life is forfeit at the point that the Kill-team arrives. Their duty, as I see it, would be to put him to death for a deriliction of his duties and cowardice, and then to place the city under the command of either the highest ranking PDF commander or the local Arbites. Now obviously, as a GM, you don't want to lead the players by the nose, but I think it would have been good to play up the monumental crime Thorsholt is guilty of from the greater Imperial perspective. That there is so much written as to actually rescuing him, as well as greater tangible in-game benefits, kind of drove me crazy.

That said, I like both of the adventures overall. I would definitely make some changes if I were to run them, but I still like them. I just hope that future adventures offer a bit more non-combat meat to the equation.

I've got to say that Adam's opinion here completely cracks me up. Of course, like any of us, his thoughts are his own and he's entitled to have them. But seriously man, come on. The game is called Deathwatch. It is completely focused on players taking on the roles of the finest warriors humanity has ever known. Genetically manipulated near "perfect" soldiers whose entire existence is based on fighting the enemies of the Emperor and the Imperium. Beings whose every thought is focused on preparing themselves for, and engaging in, conflict. Warriors for whom battle is the ultimate form of devotion and the most pure expression of their faith.

Now considering this, Adam France has a problem about the amount of combat in the game?! Absurd. Truly, completely, and utterly absurd. Why on earth would Adam even consider looking at this game? It's perfectly all right to want a game that's not combat centered, or even one wthout combat at all, but if that is his gaming style why on earth would he even consider a game like Deathwatch? I don't care for the super hero genre so I don't play super hero RPG's. It's that simple. I don't spend my time over at the Champion's message boards complaining about how much that game sucks because it's too focused on super heroes. It sounds like the "problem" here is more a matter of Adam not caring for the genre. Good news though, he can still play essentially the same game (mechanic and setting wise) with a totally different feel by picking up either Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader. Thank you FFG!

Unless of course the entire point of his comment is to simply whine and complain while attempting to convince the rest of us of his "superior" take on "real" roleplaying.

RenoDM said:

I've got to say that Adam's opinion here completely cracks me up. Of course, like any of us, his thoughts are his own and he's entitled to have them. But seriously man, come on. The game is called Deathwatch. It is completely focused on players taking on the roles of the finest warriors humanity has ever known. Genetically manipulated near "perfect" soldiers whose entire existence is based on fighting the enemies of the Emperor and the Imperium. Beings whose every thought is focused on preparing themselves for, and engaging in, conflict. Warriors for whom battle is the ultimate form of devotion and the most pure expression of their faith.

Now considering this, Adam France has a problem about the amount of combat in the game?! Absurd. Truly, completely, and utterly absurd. Why on earth would Adam even consider looking at this game? It's perfectly all right to want a game that's not combat centered, or even one wthout combat at all, but if that is his gaming style why on earth would he even consider a game like Deathwatch? I don't care for the super hero genre so I don't play super hero RPG's. It's that simple. I don't spend my time over at the Champion's message boards complaining about how much that game sucks because it's too focused on super heroes. It sounds like the "problem" here is more a matter of Adam not caring for the genre. Good news though, he can still play essentially the same game (mechanic and setting wise) with a totally different feel by picking up either Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader. Thank you FFG!

Unless of course the entire point of his comment is to simply whine and complain while attempting to convince the rest of us of his "superior" take on "real" roleplaying.

I think your view of the matter is little narrow-minded to be honest. At no point has Adam said he doesn't want combat in Deathwatch or even that he wants it minimized. He's simply stated that he doesn't want an outright hackfest where entire sessions are basically all combat. I think that's a fair expectation. After all novels about Space Marines (especially the good ones) allocate more time to non-combat than combat. There is a lot of potential roleplaying depth in the source material that is, for the most part, not being capitalized on in these adventures as they were written. He has a valid point. I tend to feel that it will likely be addressed in the actual book when it comes out, but if it isn't I will be disappointed. I, like Adam, am not really interested in hackfests, at least not long-term.

As a side note, why are so many on these boards so quick to try to marginalize views that are at all critical of anything FFG does?

It's not about minimising critical views, it's about ensuring that those critical views are logical and consistent - something that is often lacking.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

It's not about minimising critical views, it's about ensuring that those critical views are logical and consistent - something that is often lacking.

BYE

That is quite possibly the most ridiculous, arrogant, and condescending statement I've seen on these boards. Is that what you were going for?