"Basically no official source anywhere supports the idea Space Marines are actually immortal, just that during the Great Crusade some people thought they might be. That of course doesn't stop anyone having immortal Space Marines in their own version of the background."

Isn't it the other way around?

There's actually official source that say they are... but we've never heard a story of a Marine dying of old age. Ever.

There's a big resistance to the idea that Marines are immortal, most people ballparking their age to 400-500 (When several Marines are already older than that to begin with...Pedro and Marneus for sure, even without any warp travel shenanigans), so obviously the idea isn't very popular... but yeah, as far as I can, the 'offical' view supports immortality.

Balodek said >>>

Sorry, wasn't very clear on that, teach me to ask questions so late in the day. What I meant was how do you feel the addition of cybernetics would affect their loss of combat effectiveness. If a Space Marine has had several limbs replaced, for example, would that degrade their ability to fight by several decades, or would you rule that by replacing limbs they add extra decades or centuries to the amount of time they are able to perform in active service.

Thank you for the clarification. In this case, I would say that, no, I wouldn't imagine that cybernetic prosthesis is going to diminish their period of active service beyond that which they might have achieved naturally. Similarly, unless you're talking massive augmentation, it's also not going to significantly increase it either. Ageing, for me, signifies the degradation of the biological components of the body. Of course, I can think of several situations where that statement could be suggested to be wrong, but as a general rule? Well, it makes sense to me.

Balodek said >>>

Or are you thinking that the reason a Space Marine would being to feel the effects of age at 400 is more of a mental issue, and therefore cybernetics wouldn't have any bearing on that 400 year marker? On the one hand living for several hundred years without your original body parts would be a mental strain, but honestly Marines aren't living with most of their original body parts in the first place.

As above, unless you're talking massive augmentation and anagathic/rejuvenat treatments, then you're still going to see degradation of the physical condition and mental faculties of a Marine. The same is true in, say, Tech Priests. That is, unless they begin additional treatment for the effects of ageing, their brains will eventually give up the ghost.

Tarkand said >>>

There's actually official source that say they are... but we've never heard a story of a Marine dying of old age. Ever.

We do, however, have old Marines in the, errr, old 'fluff.'

Kage

in a recent Tome of Fire/Salamander novel there WAS a marine who died of old age.

He'd entered a trance state, by use of i think the Sus-An membrane, and extended his logevity by a Very Very very unheard of long time as has already been mentioned on this thread, so that he might be rescued by those of his chapter before he died, which he was, mostly, and yes did die not long after being rescued.

Velvetears said:

He very specifically did not die of old age. He was administered the Emperor's Peace by an apothecary so his gene-seed could be used by the Chapter.

He was to old to continue service with out a Sarcofogi/Drednaught, this is (extreme) old age, with his seed going back to the chapter the most "humane/merciful" way possible for marines.

Who ever receives that seed will likely be watch for greatness, especially as the Salamanders do put stock in the Lineage of seed.

I think on that matter we will merely be quibbling semantics, he was to old to serve, he was recycled back in to the chapter the only possible way with out the Drednaught option.

I was under the impression that Space Marines were effectively immortal given their superhuman resilience and natural healing abilities. The reason that they don't get to test the theory is that they live in a state of constant war and will inevitably meet some enemy or danger which will kill them. Space Marines fight so many wars across the Imperium that it is impossible for one to "retire" and write his memoirs on some paradise planet somewhere.

Velvetears said:

Wasn't that guy over 10,000 years old tho?

A a far cry from the 400-500 most people are saying...

Spoiler Warning

What about Luther? He's locked (not in stasis) in the Dark Angels dungeons and has been alive since the Heresy. 10,000 years would imply immortality. Lion El is also sleeping since the Heresy, but that might imply stasis of some sort.

As far as I'm concerned, a Space Marine's lifespan is entirely dependent on how long he can avoid getting killed in battle. The question of longevity I honestly find to be absurd (and therefore I can't stand the "Blood Angels livs teh longest!!1!!1!" non-sense that GW is spewing lately). Space Marines don't die of old age. Such a fate is essentially impossible (at would be utterly disgraceful if it were possible). At the point that a Marine starts suffering the degenerative effects of old age, and long before those effects might be lethal, he's going to be killed by one of the horrors of the galaxy. A Marine that would live long enough to even suffer such effects (assuming they might start kicking in at 700+ years) would be, at a minimum, one in a thousand. As far as I'm concerned, all Marines die in battle. There is no issue of longevity, at least not in a physiological sense.

Velvetears said:

The issue wasn't age. It was the fact that he had withered into a compete invalid. A Space Marine whose muscles and bones are atrophied to nearly nothing is not a Marine that would wish to continue living.

Atheosis said:

I'll post the same point I posted on Warseer the last time this subject came up there:

Surely the important matter is understanding how Astartes age.

"Dying of old age" is a bit of a faulty concept in the first place - it isn't the years that kill, but the late-onset afflictions and the natural wear-and-tear of life upon the body. A Space Marine is far more resistant to these things than a normal human, but they do age.

While a Marine is exceptionally unlikely to end up senile and decrepit and die in his sleep, age will hinder him after a while. It may take centuries, and only really manifest as slightly lessened strength, agility and endurance as the decades wear on, but sooner or later, an aging Marine may find that he's not quite fast enough, or strong enough, or tough enough, and it either results in his death in battle, or convinces him to request a support role, perhaps teaching and recruiting the next generation.

The lifestyle of Marines doesn't help - the accumulation of scar tissue will hamper them in battle, as scar tissue is less effective than the tissue it replaces.

With the Sons of Sanguinius, the matter becomes fairly obvious - they do not suffer as greatly from the natural decline of age. In essence, a four century old Blood Angel will have lost less of his potency to age than an Ultramarine of the same age, though neither could reasonably be called 'elderly' or decrepit. The Blood Angel simply ages more slowly, resulting in 'a longer lifespan'...

As for the matter of the Blood Angels' longevity - that's not recent. That's been around since at least the mid-90s.

See, when it comes down to Marines (and Eldar!) almost everything is going to inspire nerd-rage. Not saying that NH's post is nerd-raging, but just referring to the general thread topic and the responses that you see to it the various times that it crops up. Herein I wanted to post for opinions to see if my determined range was not only reasonable, but also flexible enough when coupled with other options (the suggestion of immortality for earlier generations of Marines from various BL publications). As far as I can tell, it is flexible enough, so once again thanks to everyone that has contributed.

As I think about it, though, it seems that the topics that come up over and over again are the ones that people find the most interesting, and yet they're the ones that receive the least attention. Yay!

N0-1_H3r3 said >>>

"Dying of old age" is a bit of a faulty concept in the first place - it isn't the years that kill, but the late-onset afflictions and the natural wear-and-tear of life upon the body. A Space Marine is far more resistant to these things than a normal human, but they do age.

Much like the real world, one imagines. I can still remember the collective academic horror when it was read that one of the cadavers for dissection had died of "old age." As you say, it quite simply isn't the truth. The individual in question died of multiple causes that ultimately resulted in myocardial infarction. On the other hand, when all is said and done, the person in question was relatively healthy up until their 82nd year. Thus, "old age."

N0-1_H3r3 said >>>

While a Marine is exceptionally unlikely to end up senile and decrepit and die in his sleep, age will hinder him after a while. It may take centuries, and only really manifest as slightly lessened strength, agility and endurance as the decades wear on, but sooner or later, an aging Marine may find that he's not quite fast enough, or strong enough, or tough enough, and it either results in his death in battle, or convinces him to request a support role, perhaps teaching and recruiting the next generation.

Good point that man. It's a system convention that you're probably not interested in, but "ageing effects" mechanics are quite simply a case of rolling against the specific attribute, and if you "fail" then the attribute decreases by a certain value to represent the effects of ageing (whatsoever that might be).

N0-1_H3r3 said >>>

As for the matter of the Blood Angels' longevity - that's not recent. That's been around since at least the mid-90s.

And Blood Angels get Longevity on top of all this. Oh, the joys. This means that they just keep on going for longer...

Kage

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Oh but there's the other glaring issue surrounding Blood Angel longevity: the Black Rage. Ask the Flesh Tearers how that affects longevity...

Oh, and I know it's not new. But it's being emphasized more heavily than in the previous edition, and has always been and remains absolutely retarded, however long it's been around.

Everything else you're saying I agree with more or less, but seeing as the fluff only gives examples of commanders in the age range where it might take effect, I maintain that age very rarely comes into the equation with Space Marines.

Radomo said:

I was gonna say Luther as well.

How old do Human's live for if they are envolved in very frequent warp travel and access to the Imperium's top medical facilities?

It's not often mentioned how old a character is but I get the feeling in many cases it's many time normal human life expectancy. Of couse there's only so much re-juve can do...

i must admit i like the idea given in the novel salamander that an extremly old marine who is growing weary (old lol) will go on a spiritual walk/quest aboriginy style. e.g in the novel goes across the harshest terain on nocturne's deserts with out armour or weapons other than a knife and three days water supply.

or in another case maybe he goes and finds the biggest monster he can find and trys to defeat it knowing he will likley die but hoping his chapter will be there to record his effort and collect his ticket too imortality i.e geneseed

but has been stated most marines won't get that far due to the amount of time spent in combat speaking as a serving member of the uk armed forces i can say the more times you go into battle the more likley something nasty will happen to you(law of averages and such plus murphy's laws)

Although it is a novel about a Chaos Space Marine, Lore of the Night, tells of Sahaal. First commander over the Raptors. Though he is a Chaos Marine, he never followed any of the Chaos ways or succumed to them in anyway I remember. When Nighthaunter allowed himself to be assassinated, the assassin took a relic from the Night Lords. he immediately went after it. Sahaal never took part in anything with the Night Lords.

Now, if he had already succumbed to any Chaos "benefits", it never says. Sahaal is even pissed when he finally finds out what the the Night Lords have turned in to. This puts him before the Horus Heresy age wise and he is still kicking and not following Chaos.

Then there is Luther from the Dark Angels. He was lat reported to be held as captive in the darkest and farthest part on (whats left) of Caliban. He was older than the Lion. Yes, he to madea blunder and fell under Chaos influence, but it is not known to what extent.

Kahaal said:

Read the earlier parts of the book again - he's trapped in stasis aboard his ship for the entire ten thousand years between Night Haunter's death and Zho Sahaal's awakening in the 41st Millennium.

Similar can be said of the Night Lords in Soul Hunter (again, Night Lords, again with a main character who spoke with Konrad Kurze before he was killed) - it's commented that, from their perspective, only a few centuries have passed. For them, the Heresy is only a recent thing, their hatred still new... yet the foes they face consider that war as an ancient legend.

Warp travel is crazy like that - the age of the Imperium can pass in the blink of an eye for some. Just because someone stood with Horus during the Great Betrayal, and now marches to war against the Imperium in the late 41st Millennium doesn't mean they endured every day in between.

Actually, wasn't it less than a century that had passed...?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Either way, an insignificant time compared to the millennia that have passed for anyone going 'the long way' through history.

Forgive my pedantic nature in that regard. You're right. The point is that it is much less than ten millennia...

Kage

Drake56 said:

Lysander is a bit of a special case since he was lost in a warp storm, and then captured and tortured by choas forces, by the time he escaped several centuries had passed in the material universe. However based on his first appearance - 567.M40 and the current "date" 127.M42 he would be in the region of 1500 years old assuming that he is still alive...

As for the oldest non-dreadnought marine ever recorded (if you are interested), that falls to the now deceased High Marshall Ludoldus, recorded to have fought in both the Jerulas Crusade 645.M39 and the Vinculus Crusade 833.M41, separated by 2188 years.