Hello. I'm kind of curious about your opinions on heavy weapons and the ability to use them solo.

The reason is that by our standards, even the heay stubber is on par with a heavy machine gun which you would never use alone. For example, the Browning .50 weighs in at about 38kg i think without the tripod(stubber is 35), but the rulebook doesnt say anything about the stubber being a 2-man weapon. I understand that using for example an autocannon alone would be obscenley difficult and all, but let's face it - the game is not reality, and if you can lift and fire a browning HMG by your own, i dont see why you couldnt do the same with a Bofors 20mm autocannon(which by comparison weighs 40kg without mounting) after your character gets even more buff.

My question though is, what heavy weapons would you allow to be used in this manner, assuming for the sake of argument we have some seriously buffed up characters with for example 50+ str and toughness, potentia coil upgraded to machinator array, bulging biceps, bionic arms etc, and where do you draw the line?

And, if you do not allow it, how do you solve the issue with so few heavy weapons available to a fire-support character trying to go down that line? Pretty much all the other heavy weapons also mention vehicle mounts or weapon teams(note mention, they dont explicitly say you HAVE to use them that way), kind of narrowing it down to heavy stubber and it's different versions, possibly a missile launcher, and heavy bolter if you consider a 40kg bolt weapon usable by one person.

Any thoughts and opinions as well as your own house rules on the matter would be apreciated!

Defeatee said:

I'd require the character in question to use the weapon with a tripod. It would take one to two turns to set the weapon up, after which the character is in business. As for what sorts of weapons to which the tripod would be required, I'd say anything with substantial recoil, such as heavy stubbers, autocannon, and heavy bolters . . . though to be honest, it may be easier to simply say all heavy weapons as it's iffy at best with multi-meltas, heavy flamers, and lascannon (the weapons are so heavy that even if someone can carry them, they'd be focusing so much on simply holding the things up that accuracy is likely to suffer).

-Kirov

Kirov said:

It's worth noting that this is essentially what the Bracing rules cover - under normal circumstances, a character suffers a -30 on all to-hit rolls with a Heavy Weapon, and cannot use semi-auto or full-auto, unless the weapon is braced (a half action). How the weapon is braced (bipod, tripod, windowsill, low wall, etc) isn't a concern.

Characters with Bulging Biceps are allowed to fire heavy weapons without bracing, suffering none of the above penalties, but they're the exception, not the rule - most characters aren't capable of doing that. Machinator Array-equipped Tech-Priests are a step further in that sort of direction, being mechanically augmented to be stronger and tougher than a normal human, so their limits are hardly those of an unaugmented human.

The other concern is ammunition. Every time you want to reload the weapon, that's an extra 10% of the weapon's weight again you need to carry, and this can add up quickly with heavy weapons. Having a second man, particularly one with Rapid Reload, allows you to keep firing the weapon for longer (because he can carry the ammo while you carry the gun) and spend less time not firing it (because you've got someone to reload it between magazines, and an extra set of hands to try and fix it if you jam the gun). Those factors alone make two-man heavy weapon teams advantageous.

Thanks for the input.

I just saw that a tripod actually weighs 2kg in the inquisitor's handbook, i wonder if they build them from balsa wood in the 41'st millenium. I was going to argue that using a 10-20kg tripod(which is what they weigh in reality) would make the gun even heavier to carry and again forcing you to be stronger, which would possibly eliminate the need for using a tripod in the first place. But theese fantastic 2kg tripods made my argument moot

The ammunition is also a very good point, nothing i can't see a smart group of players working around though, with putting a magazine on someone else who normally hangs back so that he can give it to the gunner if the fight turns into him being a bullet hose. (It can be argued that this turns him into a loader, but the question was about operating the gun, even if it means only firing the one clip you got in the cannon for example.)

Characters with Bulging Biceps are allowed to fire heavy weapons without bracing, suffering none of the above penalties, but they're the exception, not the rule - most characters aren't capable of doing that. Machinator Array-equipped Tech-Priests are a step further in that sort of direction, being mechanically augmented to be stronger and tougher than a normal human, so their limits are hardly those of an unaugmented human.

Actually, bulging biceps only lets you autofire without bracing. It says nothing about removing the -30 penalty to hit.

It does in Rogue Trader.

So it does. Perhaps they'll change DH in the errata. Or perhaps they'll change RT in the errata. Personally I'd like a compromise, no penalty for single shot and full penalties for autofire.

Defeatee said:

I once saw a forum post where someone calculated the density of the Rogue Trader starships and found that styrofoam is denser. Link

So they have access to some strong lightweight materials.

Cifer said:

Which was the rulebook I had closer to hand at the time. I forgot that the DH version is slightly different - I've been working exclusively with the RT version of the rules for months now, so I'm a little rusty on where DH differs.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Should they differ, or would you treat RT (and DW when it arrives) differences as an errata on the DH ruleset?

Defeatee said:

I'm not nit picking,

but I think the Heavy stubber is actually equivalent to a m1 saw ... the damage is similar to the autogun (or your run of the mill assault rifle firing 556), and most of the guns

which makes me think they aree all firing 5.56 ammo, with different grainloads. (or likely the same ammo, just slightly different damage for varieties sake)

The browning 50 cal is more like a autocannon or so.

with all that in mind, its not really feasible to lug around an auto cannon or assault cannon... so I think rules are probably fine as is... We just ran a game last night, had a guy with 5 str and 4 tough, and the assaultt cannon weights 60kg, and the ammo drum another 6 ... total weight load for that str/tough is 67kg, so he had to go butt naked to fire it.

So in my opinion:

• Heavy stubber is fine... its not a 'true' heavy weapon
• Autocannon/assault cannon/ lascannon etc, pretty much are 2 man operations, unless your guy is sporting 5str / 5 tough and not sporting any reloads.
• Power armor pretty much makes it a 1 man weapon... but its power armor so I see no reason why it shouldnt

linearblade said:

Nor am I...

linearblade said:

Thing is, there are sources to suggest that many patterns of autogun are chambered for 8.25 ammunition - so the comparison to modern assault rifles doesn't quite work.

Heavy Stubbers also vary based on pattern, like many weapons. The Heavy Stubbers (Orthlak and Ursid patterns) in Rogue Trader both deal 1d10+5 Pen 3 damage, which suggests a significantly more damaging round than an autogun, while the apparently crew-operated (the entries list that they're operated by heavy weapons teams) water-cooled heavy stubbers used by rebels and PDF forces in Deathwatch: Final Sanction deals 2d10+4 Pen 2 damage.

It'd be a mistake to underestimate the size and effectiveness of a Heavy Stubber, particularly as it's a catch-all term for several different machine gun analogues, used and configured in a few different ways - such as the Enforcer on the far right of this picture here , the Krieg guardsman here , this Krieg heavy weapons team here , the defence platform system seen here , or those affixed to the pintle mount of Imperial Guard tanks.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well a standard Dark heresy Heavy stubber deals 1d10+5/pen3 ...versus an autogun 1d10+3 /pen 0. As you said, there are different patterns of guns in wh40k, however the One printed in Dark heresy core rules is certainly not the equivalent of a browning 50 cal. I'm not saying that other versions of the heavy stub are not bigger and much heavier, in much the same way there are hell guns and regular lasguns... I am saying however the printed one isnt much different from the autogun. if I was to slap manstopper rounds in my autgun its nearly the same as a heavy stubber.

I guess the main point I'm trying to make is that you dont really survive getting shot by a 50 cal in any meaningful way, although you can survive getting shot from 556 ammo (tho odds arent what I'd call great)

Not too many people survive the autocannon or assault cannon shots I'd wager, but plenty of acolytes are surviving the heavy stubbers.

Btw, i cannot see this pics, I get redirected to the GW website mainpage. Whats wrong with GW sometimes, They have way too overzealous lawyers >_>;

I'd just like to throw my weight behind the "heavy stubber isn't a real heavy weapon in comparison to some of the more powerful options available" argument.

As with modern day gpmg or lsw, they are designed to be a single person, man portable support weapon for general purpose use. To put this into 40k and specifically Dark Heresy context, this is what your acolytes bring to the party when they think their autoguns, lasguns and plethora of pistols and melee weapons just won't cut it. It doesn't need to be massively more powerful or heavier caliber than your every day weapons, as it's the high rate of fire and suppressing effect on hostiles that make it attractive.

Now multilasers, autocannon, assault cannon, multimeltas, plasma cannon, heavy bolters, and missile launchers fall into the category of Heavy Weapons proper, to me at least, as they all cause significantly more damage than their basic or pistol counterparts, if any exist, and usually have large enough ammo counts for extended operations. I'd argue that heavy flamers are an exception to this rule as they don't require any user skill, just muscle to lug around the fuel cells.

To put it in more mechanical terms, i'd argue that any weapon doing 2d10 damage or more, and with any significant weight attributed to it, it's ammo and requirements for backpack fuel cells or ammo hoppers, should constitute a full on heavy weapon and require either a 2 man team, heavily RPed bracing and deployment, or bulging biceps coupled with a high S+T bonuses and meticulous encumberance monitoring by the players and GM.

linearblade said:

H.B.M.C. said:

I would have to agree with this in part, the m249 is not in any way a heavy weapon. It's basically an assault rifle with lots of ammo, and it weighs about 10kg with the box if i recall correctly, compared to the stubber that weighs 35 if you go for the standard one in the rules. An autogun with box mag would fill the role of an m249 perfectly.

Comparing the autocannon to a bushmaster is a bit overkill though imo It's like a 100kg+ cannon with half a kilo per round munitions. But something along the line would be an accurate estimate, i supose at least a 20mm caliber autocannon from today.

It's kind of a moot point though, as our soldiers today aren't supermen with bionic arms and powered armor. The heavy stubber could very well be a "light" support weapon for someone in DH. And we already proved that item weight in DH has no connection whatsoever with reality

H.B.M.C. said:

Ok so the heavy stubber may well be a Browning but there needs to be some research done into rates of fire and caliber.
Browning 1919 .30 cal machinegun, weighing in at 14kg

Or the Browning M2 .50 cal heavy machinegun, weighing in at 38kg base, but a whopping 58kg with tripod and full kit.

That'd place the heavy stubber in the middle range of those 2.

"Heavy stubber" as said is a fairly broad family weapons. They are basically the 40k name for any machine gun, whether it is something resembling a 7.62mm GPMG (ala the esher ganger from necromunda... which is very clearly and MG34 rip off, and I think the kind of thing represented by the Dark Heresy rules), a .50 cal or even 14.5mm heavy machine gun. Now, as far as the 40k TT is concerned they are all identical, but that is a (very significant) simplification for that game. 40k RPG needs slightly more detail between the types. SAWs I would just say would just be considered autoguns with larger ammunition capacities and general better design for sustained fire.

An autocannon is a bit heavier than a bushmaster. Again it represents a family of weapons. I would say it is 30mm cannon upwards, probably maxing out at the 50mm range. The nearest equivalents to a Bushmaster 25mm cannon in use are probably Heavy Bolters and Multilasers, even if their function is entirely different.

Also remember that 40k has suspensors which can be used to counteract some of the weight of weapons...

Defeatee said:

Yes, I agree. Thats what the heavy stubber in Dark heresy is. its an assault rifle with +2 damage and 200 rounds in it that you dont have to buy manstoppers for.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_BMG

Take a look at this page. The Big bullet on the left is the browning machine gun bullet. Your telling me that this thing does 1d10+5? The browning machine gun IS anti material, its designed to kill aircraft and light vehicles... although the german equivalent made afterwards was designed to kill tanks.

I believe the weight is off, or the damage is off. But it seems to me, a heavy stubber is a pindle mounted gun you stick in the back of your jeep... like a m249 orsome such.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but seriously can we really say this weapon fires 50 cal shells? Look at the size of those rounds. no way no how.

Compare that to an auto

linearblade said:

I've had my players working in teams much like modern day Infantry do. One player, the shooter, carries the weapon and in charge of firing, bracing, aiming etc. The second player is his, as he calls him, "ammo cart". He carries the Stubber's ammo and is in charge of reloads and spotting targets for the gunner. Depending on situations and surroundings I also, generally, give the character shooting the weapon a negative to spot targets while he's pulling the trigger. My theory is that a shooter firing a heavy weapon is focusing a lot of his mental energy on keeping the bucking weapon pointed ahead at what he wants to shoot. Enemies approaching at angles could easily go unnoticed. There again the second player really helps keep the balance.

linearblade said:

Throwing aside all real-world comparisons for the moment, because they always cause problems and typically end in flame wars.

In 40k tabletop terms, the Heavy Stubber (remembering that 40k doesn't show fine variation between weapon patterns - the Lucius-pattern Lasgun used by the Death Korps of Krieg fires more slowly than the Kantrael-pattern used by the Cadians, but each discharge is more potent, but both are the same in 40k terms) is Strength 4 with an AP of 6 - slightly behind the Bolter in terms of lethality. Indeed, Heavy Stubbers and Storm Bolters are both used as pintle mounted guns on Imperial Guard tanks.

A man-portable bolter deals 1d10+5 Tearing Pen 4 in DH and RT... so the Heavy Stubber is a little behind it, but otherwise roughly comparable. In the broadest terms, the Heavy Stubber is where it's meant to be. In both cases, in 40k terms, Strength 4 is sufficient to damage light vehicles and the most vulnerable parts of most tanks. Back to Dark Heresy (and using the Vehicles apocrypha, because I'm not allowed to refer to the vehicle rules in Into the Storm until it's released), 1d10+5 Pen 3 is sufficient to damage light combat vehicles like Sentinels.

So, it fills the right role - the translation is a reasonably accurate one from tabletop to RPG, in that the Heavy Stubber hits the right benchmarks of ability.

Now, back to the main thrust of the argument... heavy weapons in general.

The Heavy Stubber is a heavy weapon - it says so in the entries in both the Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader rulebooks. That it's the lightest example of a heavy weapon in the game is irrelevant (although it isn't - the Heavy Flamer is lighter, as are various patterns of missile launcher, and the Naval Shotcannon), it's still a heavy weapon, and thus subject to those rules. Similarly, the Lascannon in both those rulebooks is specifically noted as being a "Man-portable" lascannon, likely distinguishing it from emplaced or vehicle-mounted ones. Most heavy weapons in the Rogue Trader rulebook weigh about 40kg, which is within the range of a strong human being to carry without penalty, not accounting for other gear or ammunition. Heavy Weapons are a category of weapon covering guns usable by infantrymen, either alone or in groups.

Really, then, the difference between a crew-served heavy weapon and one usable by a lone combatant (remembering that almost every heavy weapon in 40k appeared in Necromunda operated by a single character without significant difficulty) isn't some arbitrary distinction based on what you might think is a 'real' heavy weapon... it's weight. Some heavy weapons are simply too big to be easily carried around by a single man, even a strong one, along with all his other kit and ammunition for the weapon. Only particularly strong people (strength 45 - that's 3 advances from average, 2 if you're a feral worlder) with the right talent (Bulging Biceps - requires Strength 45) can hope to haul around even the lightest of heavy weapons and fire them accurately without bracing them first.

For the average guardsman with SB and TB 3 (standard kit, minus lasgun, taking everything but the sandbags from the Infantry Gear in the Inquisitor's Handbook, weighs just over 52kg), being encumbered (-10 to all movement based tests, -1 AB for movement and initiative purposes, Toughness Test against fatigue every TB hours) appears to be par for the course, leaving only about 20kg of capacity before the guardsman can't move at all (combined SB+TB of 6 gives unencumbered carrying limit of 36kg, and up to twice that while encumbered). At this point, even dropping his lasgun (nearly 6kg including 4 charge packs), he lacks the capacity to carry any but the lightest of heavy weapons (heavy flamer is possible, and the lighter pattern of missile launcher leaves him some space to spare for a few missiles, but he does have to reload after each shot).

It takes somebody exceptional to brace even a heavy stubber against their hip and unleash hell with it - most people need assistance and a bipod or tripod.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Thank you for the good input

In your opinion then, what limits which weapons you can operate solo is dependant on carrying capacity, and the ability to not fall over from the recoil pretty much? What i'm trying to get at is - with a high enough str/toughness bonus and bulging biceps etc, you dont see any problems with a character using an MP lascannon on his own for example?

Defeatee said:

No. In fact, there are examples of it - Astartes Devastators (human shaped, but larger and much stronger) use Lascannons, Multi-Meltas and Plasma Cannons like large rifles, while any weapon carried by a Heavy in Necromunda was used by that character only, with no assistance from anyone else (they all had access to strength-based special abilities to represent the necessary brute strength needed to operate heavy weapons solo).

In essence, Bulging Biceps is made for characters wanting to heft around a heavy weapon by themselves... saying that they can't defeats the purpose of the talent, really.

Defeatee said:

None at all.

Just remember that it is going to be a very difficult weapon to hide. Meaning that any NPCs they try to interact with will see someone carrying one around and react appropriately. So the group will either need somewhere to hide it, or they will have serious problems doing any undercover work. Some cults will simply pack up and take their heresy elsewhere, others will acquire more firepower to deal with you and others will advance their schedule.

Or the group could have it hidden somewhere, meaning they might not have enough time to go get it when it's time to purge.