Overlord

- At any time can the overlord discard cards to get threat tokens?
-Can he discard as many as he wants to get threat tokens?

Heroes
- Before a hero declares an action, can he use as many Fatigue tokens to move, and then take his action?
- If a hero makes an attack with his weapon....say a sword, does he exhaust it to show that he used it?

- At any time can the overlord discard cards to get threat tokens?

Yes

-Can he discard as many as he wants to get threat tokens?

Yes

Heroes
- Before a hero declares an action, can he use as many Fatigue tokens to move, and then take his action?

He has to declare his action for the turn first (Battle, Advance, etc.). Once that's done he can use fatigue to move around before and after performing any attacks, picking an order, etc.

- If a hero makes an attack with his weapon....say a sword, does he exhaust it to show that he used it?

The only items that exhaust are the ones that say they do. The rest can be used repeatedly or give a constant bonus.

So a hero can say Battle Action (i think it's attack twice), but then use fatigue to move closer. Then attack twice...

pacodub said:

Correct.

A hero can also declare a battle action, pay fatigue to move, attack once, pay more fatigue to move again, attack a second time, and then pay fatigue to move yet again.

pacodub said:

Yes, however, if his first attack kills the target and there are no other targets he can reach with his remaining fatigue, the hero is NOT allowed to switch to a move or an order with the remainder of his turn. Unless the hero in question is Grey Ker, because that's his special ability. =)

Cymbaline said:

From the rule book:

B. Battle
A hero that battles may make up to 2 attacks during
his turn, but cannot move (see “Attacking,” page 9).
Each attack is completely resolved before the hero
makes the next attack.

So, NO you can not move if you attack twice.

The person who asked the question most definitely did not bother to search the forum before posting his question... I found my own thread with the proper answer to the 'Battle & Move' issue within 1 minute of using the Search function...

While cbytes is correct that the rulebook DOES state 'cannot move', it is also true that all Descent players thruout the world play with the rule that they allow fatigue to be spent to move the character during battle action or if the character's innate ability allows (e.g Brother Glyr can move 2 extra MP per turn regardless of anything)

There is also proof that this is allowed - Under official FFG's advice for Heroes link: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp

This was written by the very person who DESIGNED the official dungeons and maps of Descent.

Check out his rule #2:

Rule 2: Take advantage of your skills and your fatigue. Keep your fatigue refilled; use a rest order if you're in the clear and low on fatigue. Save vitality potions for emergencies. Remember that fatigue will let you move while battling. Don't forget your skills in the heat of the moment.

cbytes said:

From the rulebook, page 18 (emphasis added):

"Spending Fatigue for Movement
At any time during a hero’s turn, he may spend one fatigue to gain one movement point, even if he is currently taking the battle action."

Yes, the rules are confusing and poorly edited and even outright contradictory sometimes.

Though the particular contradiction that you quoted was changed in the printed manual to say something like "...but receives no movement points," coming down on the "you may spend fatigue" side. The online PDF is older than dirt and has never been updated. Try searching it for "slime" some time.

Why do people always quote that fatigue section whenever this question is asked? That would really only be meaningful if there weren't ways to spend movement points that don't involve actual movement.

See to me these are two seperate issues, I agree you can spend fatigue for move points but you can not use move points from your base movement if you have attacked twice only fatigue move points can be used.

cbytes said:

Well you don't get your base move if you declare a Battle Action, so that follows naturally. You do still get MPs from Ring of Quickness and the like, though, which you can use freely.

Also, careful about your terminology - there are ways to attack twice without having declared a Battle Action (via skills, for example) If you declare an Advance and get a second attack from some skill, you still get your base move as normal.

mahkra said:

You're giving the rules way too much credit. "Movement" has three or four different definitions in Descent and the rules are very sloppy about distinguishing between them.

The "Advance" action states that the hero "may move up to a number of spaces equal to his speed". Are you prepared to argue that means that a hero that Advances and spends fatigue can spend the extra movement points on movement actions but not on normal movement, because that would exceed this limit?

cbytes said:

You quoted two people saying that you could use fatigue to move during a Battle action. You then said "NO you can not move if you attack twice," which sounds an awful lot like disagreement to me. Now you're saying that you agree with them that you can use fatigue to move during a Battle action.

Color me confused.

Also, there is no such thing as "base movement" in Descent. You may be thinking of "speed."

You should also note that taking a Battle action gives you two attack opportunities, but it is NOT the same thing as "attacking twice." There are numerous ways to attack twice without performing a Battle action, using skills or feats; it is also possible to take a Battle action but perform some number of attacks other than two, either by using skills/feats to gain more attacks or by choosing to make fewer attacks than you are allowed.

And the point at which you are committed to taking a Battle action comes at the time that you declare your action, not when you make your second attack. You cannot change your mind about your action after the first attack (unless you're Grey Ker).

Antistone said:

I think we are arguing semantics, my point is you can not use speed (base movement listed on your toons card) if you choose battle action, is this not correct ?

Spending fatigue can be used for movement, but this is a different issue, because that fatigue movement could be used to drink a potion instead or spend 2 fatigue to open a door, my point is you can not use any speed for movement during a battle action, normally (without special skill and such)

Your Speed (ordinarily) has no effect whatsoever during a Battle action, yes.

cbytes said:

Yes and No.

If you declare a battle action you do not receive any inherent MP from your speed. That is all. Declaring it in any other way actually leads to confusion, exacerbated by the incorrect wording in the pdf rules on pg8.

You may still use any MP you gain from any source. That source could be your speed (through a skill such as Knight), a special ability (eg Brother Glyr), an item (eg Elven Boots), spending fatigue or even a Feat card (eg Hustle).

It is really quite simple, though the wrong wording in the pdf misleads many people.
Speed is merely a factor in your MP. It is multiplied by another factor that depends on the action you declare (0 for battle, 1 for advance, 2 for Run, 1 or 0 for Ready) and then any additional MP you receive are added to your total. You can then spend that total MP any way you see fit, and add to it at any time (after declaration) by spending more fatigue.

Anywhere in rules or card text that something says "You may move X spaces" then that thing should be read to say " you receive X MP". This has been officially clarified for Tahlia, for example. It has not been officially clarified for Hustle (almost certainly because nobody has asked). IMO Hustle is merely an example of the criminally bad editing on the part of FFG that flows right through Descent.
There is no mechanism in the movement rules for moving X spaces, only for spending MP. But because they have never bothered to edit the Orders text it looks like there is such a mechanism* and lazy authors miswrite their 'new' cards.

*It seems obvious that the mechanism originally was move X spaces on conception, and probably through the first draft and playtests, but once you introduce pits and other obstacles that require extra MP to move into or out of then it is obvious that an MP system is required in place of a move X system. So they changed the movement rules but never edited the Orders.

Corbon said:

This is the way it should have been written .... cudos

Antistone said:

I have absolutely no problem with the conclusion; I just don't know how that fatigue section is supposed to help explain things. (It certainly didn't clear things up at all for my group when we were first learning the rules.) There's much better evidence available (wording in the rules updated to "receives no MP" in the printed version, KW explicitly mentioning moving while battling in a tactics article), so why even mention the fatigue section?

Antistone said:

is there any place to find an updated version of the manual on pdf?

Not that I know of, but the changes made to it in the most recent printing should all (or at least mostly) be in the FAQ.

If you want a good, updated rulebook, check out davedujour's updated merged rulebook (which is an updated version of i.a.m.'s excellent book to include ToI rules) at www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/46083/updated-merged-rulebook (and there is no mention of "slime" in this book ).

-shnar