Hi,

Got a few questions about these two:

1. What exactly is the difference between and ordinary "Suppressing fire" action, and when you make one as part of overwatch? A bit confused there...

2. It says in Overwatch characters caught in the kill zone make a pin test. All characters and not only my target? And even if I don't use the suppressing fire as the action?

3. Can I attack more than one target using overwatch? i.e. If ten targets meet the condition of my overwatch can I attack them all?

4. Can I use the overwatch attack in the same round I set the overwatch up? Like if the conditions are met on an intiative lower than mine, but in the same round?

5. What if I overwatch an open area between two covers, and my target tries to use tactical advance to move from one of those covers to the other? Do I get the shot, or does he make the move?

Thanks for your time

abcdzyxw said:

1. From my understanding there's really nothing different between an ordinary Suppression and Overwatch besides when it takes place, other then the -20 incurred due to the Overwatch being more of a knee-jerk shot.

2. Yes, all targets in the killzone test against pinning; at -20. Overwatch is very specific in what type of action you can take while performing it; a Full-auto Burst Action. Remember, all modifiers to an action are applied for, so you take a -20 for Overwatch , but gain a +20 for Full-auto .

3. Yes and no. You may only make one Full-auto action in that round. However, per the description of Full-auto on page 190, your extra hits can be allocated to the original target, or to additional targets so long as they are within 2 meters of the original target, and provided that the new target would not be harder to hit.

4. No. Overwatch takes a full-action to set up. Full-auto is a full-action to perform. You cannot perform two full-actions in a round. At this point, you'd simply want to either suppress the area normally, or simply spray and pray for damage.

5. You would get the shot while he is on the move. This would mean that if you do not successfully pin the target, he would complete his move to the second area of cover; while probably needing a new pair of drawers when he was done.

Hope that's helpful.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Thanks man, it really did help alot.

I do however have a followup on question 5:

It says in the tactical advance description that that during the duration of the move, you are considered under cover. The only case (as far as I can see) that anyone can attack you during the duration of the move is if someone delayed an action or you are crossing an overwatch zone.
It also says in overwatch that if you make a shot during another creatures turn, then agility determins who acts first.

So do I get an attack but either way the target is considered behind cover? Why then would I make the shot while he's moving (at a harder difficulty) when I can shoot him through his cover at easier difficulty with the same results?
Or maybe I do shoot him on the move and he's considered in open ground? But that contradicts the tactical advance description, and also makes it quite useless.

What I would suggest is making an opposed agility test. If the shooter winds, he gets a shot while the target is not under cover. And if the target wins, then the shot is through cover. Either way it's made with the -20% difficulty. How's that and how do you guys play it?

Thanks for your time .

abcdzyxw said:

In the case of a target using Tactical Advance , I'd say they are considered to be in cover even against the Overwatch . They are proceeding more cautiously then someone merely walking along on patrol, for instance.

Your proposed Agility test might work as a means of resolving things. I would be more inclined to utilize the rules for determining surprise first. There are a lot of differing situations which may call for variation. Ultimately, it boils down to one main question. Is the target expecting trouble? If so, I can see Tactical Advance probably trumping the Overwatch in that the target would still have cover benefit.

You do bring up some interesting points which would benefit more from an official response from Sam then anything I can reason out. Thus, do I refer you to the majesty of the |Rules Question| link. Feel free to bask in its glorious illumination. They're pretty good about getting back to us in a couple of days during the work week. A little longer on the weekends, as they are typically out of office.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I'd be inclined to have everyone making a tactical advance test for supression anyway. At some point during the advance you're going to be exposed however brief, else it's just a move action behind continous cover. And since tactical advance is a full action, if you do get supressed you can't advance since supressed characters only get a half action.

we'll we had a discussion about this and went as follows:

tactical advance bascially let's you move and have the advantage of cover...that means it's protection value and nothing more...

you can move with a tactical advance through an overwatch area and still apply that full AP from the cover but he can attack you like you moved normally...

if you tactical advance from a 16AP wall to a 16AP wall you trigger a pin test but probably get no damage from most weapons since you are already going into cover/still count as behind cover you can finish your move but if you fail your WP test you are pinned where you're gone which is behind cover

as you only have half actions left you cannot use tactical advance while being pinned otherwise you could move around using tactical advance because you remain in cover while moving

you still have to make WP tests if the suppressive fire hits but does not get through your cover (damage 1, AP32 cover... still a WP test)

I would convert their tactical advance to "run screaming for whatever cover you were going for without the benefit of cover" if they get pinned while going from cover to cover. It doesn't seem right to continue moving carefully and deliberatly when you are in effect paniced about getting shot.

But that's just me, maybe I'm too mean.

You can't "undo" another persons action that has already been taken.

That means that if Bob declares that he's making a Tactical Advance, to move from A to B, then you can't undo this by pinning him while on the move. He can still be pinned, but the effects of pinning (only take half actions) do not retroactively cancel his Tactical Move, as the Tactical Move has already been made.

So Bob will find himself behind cover at point B, Pinned. And on Bobs next turn he may test WP to escape pinning.

An interesting thing for the rules lawyers, then: The normal pinning rules on p. 196 (of the DH book, mind you) assume that you were pinned during someone else's turn, and that you will as a consequence suffer the effects of pinning for at least one turn before you "can Test Willpower at the end of his Turn to escape Pinning, in which case he may act as normal in his next Turn". However, if you were pinned on your own turn, as a result of someone else's Overwatch, could you test to escape pinning at the end of the same turn, thus not suffering any ill effects at all? Or must you wait until the end of your next turn?

Darth Smeg said:

Good question. I would personally let the subject of the pinning in this case test at the end of their turn, as opposed to the end of the next. After all, "end of his turn" would imply it works that way. An advantage of being cautious in approach, one might think. Still, to avoid discussion which may turn into an arguement, I recommend asking Sam.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Having re-read the rules I've got some corrections on the answers given in this thread.

2. Yes, all targets in the killzone test against pinning; at -20. Overwatch is very specific in what type of action you can take while performing it; a Full-auto Burst Action. Remember, all modifiers to an action are applied for, so you take a -20 for Overwatch, but gain a +20 for Full-auto.

Overwatch is indeed very specific in what types of action you can make. Full auto, Semi auto or supressive fire.

4. No. Overwatch takes a full-action to set up. Full-auto is a full-action to perform. You cannot perform two full-actions in a round. At this point, you'd simply want to either suppress the area normally, or simply spray and pray for damage.

The rules clearly state "at any time the conditionas are met before the start of the characters next turn he can perform that attack". It't no longer an extended action like in DH so if you want to overwatch the next round as well you'll have to do it again.

It seems RT overwatch is changed from DH. I see some problems with theese changes. What happens if you choose supressive fire? Two pinning tests?

Suppose I want to supress a guy in front of me. I can either supress right away for -20 to hit with one extra hit for every two DoS and randomly assigned hits. Or overwatch with the conditions "when that guy is in front of me I'll open fire on him", getting a +-0 full auto attack immediatly which still pins, does extra hit every DoS and doesn't assign hits randomly.

Or suppose you're only armed with a semi auto capable weapon and want to supress. You can still overwatch as per the RT rules, which gives pinning, better to hit roll and the same amount of DoS per hit as supressive fire with a full auto capable weapon.

And finally:

You can't "undo" another persons action that has already been taken.

That means that if Bob declares that he's making a Tactical Advance, to move from A to B, then you can't undo this by pinning him while on the move. He can still be pinned, but the effects of pinning (only take half actions) do not retroactively cancel his Tactical Move, as the Tactical Move has already been made.

So Bob will find himself behind cover at point B, Pinned. And on Bobs next turn he may test WP to escape pinning.

Bob takes a tactical advance from cover A to cover B. He crosses the kill zone, get's shot with Hyper density penetrators, and fails his toughness test to remain standing.

At the end of his round, where is bob? On the ground, between covers or on the ground behind cover B?

Suppose there is an ice patch between covers, Bob doesn't notice (falied perception test) and slips on it (failed agility test). Does he still make it to cover B?

Stuff that happens in transit can mess up your move action, I don't see how getting pinned should be any different. It's not that you undo an action that has already taken place, it's that something that happens in the period of time from action start to action finish requires handling and you've just failed your "handle stuff" test.