Hi,

Me and my friends are playing Warhammer frp2 and following the next encounter, had a disagreement:

The facts:

1. A dwarf insulted a priest of Sigmar and accused him of theft.

2. The priest of Sigmar is not guilty for a fact.

3. The priest of Sigmar wanted to both teach the dwarf a lesson and prove his innocence in the eyes of everybody present.

4. The priest of Sigmar challanged the dwarf to a bare knuckle duel (Undoning their armor, no weapons, ect...). A sort of "Trial of the gods".

5. Just before the battle the priest casted a buff on himself that considerably lowered the dwarf's chance to win the duel (the dwarf didn't understand it was a buff, but instead a simple prayer to Sigmar).

6. The priest of Sigmar won the duel without harming the dwarf (stunning him).

Now the question:

Was the duel fair in the eyes of an average man? Was the duel fair in the eyes of Sigmar and his followers or did the priest use deception to win? And finally, is the priest of Sigmar in the right according to their codex?

Thanks for your time

Well, assuming that the prayer had no obvious signs of pseudo-magic about it (glowing, floating etc) then as far as anyone is concerned he won fair and square. OK, so he had Sigmar on his side - as a priest he really should!

According to his own morals, I would have thought he'd be OK - it doesn't violate the tenets of Sigmar, and it upholds the reputation of the priesthood

To me, it was not completely fair, since the priest changed the odds.
Every class has aspects/perks that enhance them. The dwarf probably had alot of other abilities as well, that he didn't use, where the priest did.
Did the priest willingly deceive the dwarf with this? Or was it simply the dwarf that assumed it was a simple little prayer?

Like phobiandarkmoon said, it doesn't violate any tenets from what I can see.
t is your right as DM/Sigmar to either grant or not grant him the power however, don't forget.
It is still Sigmar's power that comes into play. If it is to absolutely abuse, and go directly against what Sigmar stands for, you could choose to either

- not have the effect come through

- have the priest face consequences of his actions later on.

So, the priest didn't do it, and challenged the Dwarf to prove his innocence. He then, as can be expected, prayed to Sigmar to help him prove his innocence. And since the priest was indeed innocent, Sigmar provided the help he needed to win. If the priest HAD done the crime, Sigmar wouldn't have helped him with the buff and the priest would have lost.

It was not only a fair duel, it was the will of the gods.

sudden real said:

Absolutely. The priest would have been abusing his position if he hadn't cast the buff, I mean, prayed to Sigmar for support.

Technically, had a wizardly or Verenan arbiter been present, I think they might consider it unfair. I also seem to recall a duel from Power Behind The Throne where magic was explicitly outlawed.

Of course to the common man, a prayer to Sigmar is a very obvious and natural thing to do. That it actually has an immediate effect on the priest, well, that just means Sigmar is on his side, right? So he deserves to win.

Mechanically, well, everybody has special abilities. The dwarf is probably tougher than the priest. Why deny the priest limited access to what few advantages he has?

Thanks for your input guys, it really helps.

When the encounter accured, I held the position that the priest wasn't in the right. It just seemed wrong to me to me that a priest of Sigmar would use deception to win a duel with a dwarf. I picture them as a more straightforward type . The thing is, from my point of view, it was not a duel invloving all skills and talents from the characters, but an unarmed duel. Meaning without armor, weapons and other things not directly connected to unarmed fighting. To me the priest clearly didn't give the dwarf a fair chance at this (but that may have not been the point).

Then again, if you don't look at the buff as simply that, but a prayer to Sigmar, and if Justice and law are more important to Sigmar than fairness, then yeah the priest is alright.

(I think I like Ulric more then Sigmar after this discussion )

abcdzyxw said:

Ulric would probably expect his priests to fight the duel naked in the snow, beset by wolves. And still expect them to win. (And they would.)

I'm not sure if Ulric is really more honest and straightforward than Sigmar, though. In the end, they're both proud warrior gods with big but fragile egos.

The way I see it is that a prayer and magic are not the same thing. If the priest had used magic I think everyone who witnessed it would agree that he cheated (but might be too afraid to do anything about it). In the eye of the common citizen of the empire there is a big difference between magic (an unnatural force) and a prayer to the gods. And I think it is also something different in the eyes of the priest. If he prayed to his god, and he gave him strength it shows that his cause is just.

a magician who used obvious magic to win a duell would be considered cheating.

a priest who used an obvious prayer would be regarded with awe and respect.

You should always bear in mind that the warhammer world is not like the typical high fantasy setting. Magic and wonders are very very rare and poorly understood by the common man. Most peasants will never see a true spell, and if they do, it is propably the magic of a dirty hedge wizard. And almost all of them are very superstitious and ardent believers in the power of the gods, especially Sigmar. So if a priest of sigmar is accused of stealing something, that alone would be terrible blasphemy (it also depends on the image of the priest of course. not all priests are saints). But if he would shine in golden light and smite the little heretic, the people would be absolutely convinced of his innocence.

And the priests of Sigmar are not always the white knights. Remember that the witchhunters are also part of the church and those guys are a very scary bunch of fanatics who do not hesitate to burn whole villages when doing so can keep the forces of Chaos at bay. And the Priests are no good paladins either. The higher ranks of the church are very active in the politics of the empire, and you don't survive that without being fairly talented at intrigue. And while common priests may be much more straightforward, many of them have no qualms about using every weapon in their arsenal to get the job done and make the empire a secure place.

Come on guys! This is WFRP... if the priest didn't hire skaven with infected knives to shiv the dwarf before the fight and if he didn't invoke a prayer to turn him inside out in front of everyone, it was totally fair. Heck, if he didn't smack the beaten dwarf in the nads with his warhammer for good measure, that dwarf got off easy!

Erlan said:

I'm not so sure about that. I seem to recall that gods are Warp entities, shaped by the hopes and beliefs of the people. Blessings granted by them are as much a product of the Warp as wizard spells. (The difference is that wizards meddle with that Chaos stuff directly, whereas priests do it through the intervention of their gods (who are themselves sort-of Chaos stuff too, but nobody is asking to closely about that.)

Erlan said:

It would also depend a lot on where in the Empire you are. Sigmar is pretty big in Reikland, but in some other areas, some people don't see him as a god at all (Consider the Sigmarian Heresy).

mcv said:

But this is gamer mechanics talking. As far as the characters in-game, blessings are the blessings of the gods to assist you in your ventures as they agree with your actions/morals etc. Whereas magic is fumbling about with the very forces of chaos and almost certain to end in calamity for everyone.