KarmicCycle said:

Keep in mind, that based on the power levels of the games, the DH/RT lasgun will be used primarily in a Horde in DW. So, against that ork, a paltry Magnitude 10 IG Horde (easily representing a squad, for example) will be doing 2d10+3 Pen 0, which has much more of a chance of getting damage through the To 8 of the Ork (even with some armor).

Here are the differences that I have noted between Final Sanction and DH/RT.

The Genestealers in Final Sanction have a natural armor of 2. The Genestealers in the Creature Anathma have a natural armor of 6.

The Astartes power armor in Final Sanction has a value of 8, same as that available to "normal" humans. In the DH supplement Purge the Unclean a Space Marine sergeant is mentioned and his power armor ranges from 10 in the head, 11 arms & legs and 12 for the body.

In the Creature Anathma an Ork MegaArmor is supposed to be 6 head, 10 arms & legs, and 14 body.

As I understand it Ork Mega Armor is supposed to be roughly equal in protective value to Space marine tactical armor.

It the 8 armor value used in Final Sanction an indication that this is just a quickie learning supplement and the later armor values will be increased or can the armor values in DH and the Creature Anathma be considered flukes? Perhaps Deathwatch will not be all that compatible with DH and RT.

Just wondering

My copy of Final Sanction has the Genestealers with:

Armour: Reinforced Chitin (All 6)

dvang said:

Same here, in Creature Anathema they have R Chitin 4 (all).

Ork Mega Armour is supposed to be as hard as Tactical Dreadnought Armor (Terminator), thats how its done in the Wargame, with the exception of the Invunreble field.

The Power Armor in Purge the Unclean is Artificer Armor not Power.

Edsel62 said:

As someone else mentioned, the Purge the Unclean armour is Artificer Armour, not normal power armour, which is what Space Marines wear.

And as with the others, my copy has the Genestealers at Natural Armour: 6.

MILLANDSON said:

Yes the armor is listed as standard armor. The BI author posted on the forums that it was intended to be Artificer Armor and that it was misprinted in the text.

ItsUncertainWho said:

What he said (except he beat me to it). The Purge the Unclean armour is Artificer, which is why it's better than the normal armour.

Edsel62 said:

Well ork mega armour is more often depicted as the equivalent of terminator armour rather than power armour. TS Luikart has said that the armour was artificer armour.

I would hope there is some new and deadlier plasma weaponry around. Even the rebel leader's plasma pistol is barely equal to an astartes bolt pistol (2D10+8 Pen6 vs 3D10pick highest2+5 pen5).

Hellebore

Hahah. Sorry are we actually arguing about the comparisons of how weapons in warhammer 40k tabletop and the rpg work? I have been playing tabletop games and rpgs most of my life- There are two things constant with GW tabletop games- Their models gat better and better their rules sets get worse and worse. Please don't get upset about the fact that the rpg rules don't match up to the table top versions. I had to quit 4ok this year because the rules hadve gotten so terrible that I can't even stomache playing anymore. (actually most of my gaming comunity- at least 30 or so have done the same). I really want this Death watch to be great. I have loved the other games that Fantasy Flight has made for 40k and I hope this one continues to impress. 40k with all its flaws isn't meant to be an actual war/fight it is a summary of what happened. (2nd ed was more actual). I can see my players now- "okay so there are 5 of us and ten genestealers... we charged- so we all put our attack into a pool and dish out wounds into a pool and see who lives?) NO sir- this is roleplaying not a war summary. I hope the rules are dramaticly different so that they follow the fluff not the recent sorry codexes. As for the guard vs Spacemarine weapons...yeah SM have better weapons and usually better versions of the same weapons. they spend whole parts of their days having them blessed and cleaning and making sure they are perfect. This is after techmarines have made sure they are flawless. that is for "regular" astartes- Now you are talking about DEATHWATCH. They are the navy seals of the SM. (well except the Grey knights -they are even more so.)

Hivemind said:

H.B.M.C. said:

I have to say I am not terribly keen on 40k roleplay's presentation of Space Marine equipment so far. There has always been evidence that Space Marine bolters are better than "normal" ones, but no real evidence that they were more damaging, or that a standard one was on a similar level to a non space marine heavy bolter. Much of it was to do with simple better maintenance and more fancy decoration. Now, I presumed that a standard bolter was not capable of automatic fire, which Space Marine ones were, that maybe they had fancy attachments as standard, and they were built physically larger to make them easy to handle with Space Marine's large gauntlet encased hands. Other than that I had presumed they were identical, and used identical ammunition (aside from maybe some quality issues). All in all I thought it would have been better to say all SM boltguns were "Best" quality, and maybe give them a couple additional points spread across Penetration and Damage, a little additional range and full auto (which would be unavailable to standard bolters, as in the original DH rulebook rules).

DH however (from Purge the Unclean), says it uses larger rounds, in fact so much larger it has the same punch as a heavy bolter (or even more than that, going by Final Sanction where they buff them further while at the same time taming down Space Marine power armour), but the stated "normal" bolt calibre is identical to that of a Space Marine's bolter, ie .75 inch. This leads to the rather odd conclusion that they much be longer... and significantly so to explain the damage difference.

As far as SM models go, they are less smaller than they should be than people suggest... all SM models have quite a squat to them, meaning that they appear shorter than they would be if they were standing straight.

Lots of things in the game(s) point to the SM versions being significantly larger than civilian versions.

borithan said >>>

I have to say I am not terribly keen on 40k roleplay's presentation of Space Marine equipment so far.

<waits pensively to get hold of the armour section!>

borithan said >>>

There has always been evidence that Space Marine bolters are better than "normal" ones, but no real evidence that they were more damaging, or that a standard one was on a similar level to a non space marine heavy bolter.

On the face of things I'm going to have to agree with this. If I were to model the differences in Kage-verse it would be more than likely a nod of the head to the idea that "civilian bolters," which are basically the same thing, have access to less advanced bolt rounds/shells. There is, as indicated, some traction to make them have a larger cross-section/caliber, but I think that I'm taken with the idea that you just get multiple rounds coming out of the barrel. Triple tapping. Gotta love it. (Especially when combined with advanced sensors that allow independent targeting as an upgrade to your power armour!)

On the other hand, the scaling damage thing just seems to be a recognition of the fact that the core wound/damage mechanics don't handle scaling very well. Of course, I'm biased so I would say that.

Kage

H.B.M.C. said:

My Bad in your original post you were talking about Land raiders. Even though I have all the books the page with Land raiders must have fallen out. You may want to try reading what you poat once in a while.

I can't say I have a problem with SM Bolters being better and more damaging than standard bolters. I just put it down to different components in the bolts themselves. More charge in the first stage shell because the SM weapon can take it and he can handle the recoil, kraken rounds have more again. Different explosive used in the bolts, military grade C4 rather than TNT. That sort of thing.

My players took it for granted that the SM bolters would be better and they were not disappointed. The heavy bolter tore through buildings, vehicles and hordes. The bolter and bolt pistol were more than enough to deal with genestealers. Just as my players expected.

Tam

And the new free DM adventure answers this question:

Tyranid Profiles

As with the profiles for the Genestealers and the Broodlord from Final Sanction, the profiles for the Tyranids presented here have been simplified for the purposes of the scenario and for reasons of space. However, if the GM has a copy of the Deathwatch Rulebook, he can instead use the full profiles for Tyranid creatures found in Chapter XIII: Adversaries. He should be aware, however, that these expanded profiles make the Tyranid adversaries more powerful and consequently more of a challenge for the players.

That's good news.

BYE

I think you guys are getting hung up on stuff that overall doesn't matter that much. If there are three ways of representing boltguns then choose the one you think works best. I think it is a good think that developers don't feel bound to continuing something they think they can improve. DH is an improvement on WHRP2; RT is an improvement on DH and I will imagine that DW will be an improvement on RT.

On the power levels on Marine weapons, they are genetically engineered superhumans so yes, their weaponry will be much more potent that that which is made for regular humans. The 40k version of special forces are Storm Troopers or Veterans, not Marines. Marines 100x more powerful in the 40k universe than their regular human counterparts. Of course, balanced game design (or what counts as balanced game design in 40k) states that Marines cannot be what they really are in the table top version because each one would be almost an independent character on their own (or like the Movie Marine rules they released in White Dwarf). Thus the true power of Marines is only revealed in fiction and the other games related to TT40k. So when Inquisitor came out, the example Deathwatch Captain character was more than a match for anyone else in the game and could take on a whole other warband and still win. They were almost impossible to kill. So comparisons between the relative power levels between Guard and Marines in TT40k don't stack up with comparisons in DH/RT/DW or Inquisitor.

On the original topic, the Genestealers (as have been pointed out) are much stripped down from what is in Creatures Anathema (which isn't the best FFG book anyway, pretty crap in my view). The Genestealers in CA have half a dozen more talents than the ones in Final Sanction and would just complicate a demo game for DW. I'm sure they will be much more bad arse when the DW book comes out.

carrotcolossus said:

I'd also hasten to add that we should all remember these games are the first generation of official full 40k RPG'ing that we've ever seen, there will be growing pains (hell, I bought the original Rogue Trader thinking it WAS an rpg back in the day).

carrotcolossus said:

*ahem*

As I just posted:

As with the profiles for the Genestealers and the Broodlord from Final Sanction, the profiles for the Tyranids presented here have been simplified for the purposes of the scenario and for reasons of space. However, if the GM has a copy of the Deathwatch Rulebook, he can instead use the full profiles for Tyranid creatures found in Chapter XIII: Adversaries. He should be aware, however, that these expanded profiles make the Tyranid adversaries more powerful and consequently more of a challenge for the players.