I have seen the posts all over the place about the lack of order/destruction or rush/control balance.

My group set out a couple of weeks ago to try and find the reasons, from our point of view.

The first and most obvious issue is the more cost efficient units on the destruction side (or should I say Skaven side). The Skaven seem to be the unit issue in most scenarios as they are super efficient and very synergistic and gain benefits by playing more of these already better than average cards.

The second issue and one I have not read from anyone else's point of view is the flavor of destruction carrying over to the game design. The amount of cards on the destruction side that remove units from play far outweighs those on the order side of things. This to me is the bigger issue.

If you can find a unit base that can hold up in a bubble against the destruction waves they are removed before they can get to combat, where most of the order tactics and effects seem to shine. Take a look at your tactics or effects that can be generated on both sides. You will find that most order effects key off of being in combat or healing. You will also then notice that the destruction side says kill a unit or remove its health.

With this in mind you start to see where the problem begins. If you cannot keep units in play on the order side you will not be able to play any effects to modify or heal them.

When I mentioned that flavor is carrying over to design, I am getting the feeling that they are avoiding the "kill/destroy a unit" type effects for the order side to give them that more noble feel (I could be wrong but it is all absent in the games current design). This needs to be re-evaluated for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the idea that a "good guy" should not have kill/destroy effects is a little silly when you are designing a game with a battle/war theme. Trust me those good guys will kill for a noble cause.

Secondly, no matter how much more efficient you make the order units removal will trump them. Or, you will have to beef up the order side so far the pendulum will swing far to the other side.

Well those were my thoughts on the bigger issue of the balancing act that needs to be looked at. The game is still good and fun, but as a lot of others have already posted there is no real reason to be looking at order cards in any kind of tournament format for the foreseeable future.

I'm not sure how can I put this politely, so I'll just say it. You are wrong.

For quite a while, you were correct - after the release of the Deathmaster's Dance BP, the various Skaven decks were far and away the best archetypes. Right now, this is no longer the case. While Skaven/Orc rush and DE/Skaven are both strong (and Chaos/Skaven is ok), Dwarves are on roughly the same level of competitiveness. And a well played Order Thrower deck is probably the best deck in the standard format right now.

Now, Order decks do indeed suffer with not having efficient direct removal to get rid of utility units. An unanswered Deathmaster (and to a lesser extent, Rat Ogres or Vile Sorceress) is really bad for all the unit-based Order decks.

vscory said:

"Noble cause", pfft, some good guys kill just for spite .

As for the balance, I came across a post on BGG where a poster noted Order gets shafted through and through when it comes to cards. First, Destruction got Skaven, Order got Errant Wolf, Marius and Zealot Hunter (any other Order only Neurtrals?). With the March of the Damned, yay, Order gets a new "faction" (I use quotes, because no capital doesn't really make it into a faction for me)! Now it's 1-1 each. But wait, Destruction gets a faction too. Oh well, Order still has those three cards up on Destruction.

Standard is kind of boring. I feel like its a solved format for now... as much as Mining Tunnels helps Dwarves be competitive with Skaven, it puts Bolt Thrower so far over the top its comical.

Basically the game is going to be learned like so:

Phase 1: put together some basic decks from each of the factions, and come to the following conclusions: Orcs are really fast. Skaven have ridiculously high card quality. DEs are really disruptive. Dwarves have a lot of tricks. Chaos is good at killing stuff. Empire blows donkey balls. High Elves are like bad dwarves.

Phase 2: build the "obviously best deck" by combining skaven and orcs. Complain that rush is too good. **YOU ARE HERE**

Phase 3: look for room to innovate and beat the rush strategy, finding one or both of these decks: Chaos unit removal and/or DE/Skaven aggro-control. If you find Chaos first, be sad when you find DE and realize DE absolutely shreds Chaos. Declare DE/Skaven the new best deck in the format.

Phase 4: Realize you can play a ton of supports to neutralize the unit removal of DE, tuning your orc deck to beat DE. Be sad when you realize Orc/Skaven is actually best, just as you feared in Phase 2. But...lo and behold... a light at the end of the tunnel... by now you've gotten good enough at the game to realize dwarves are actually awesome when played well. Be satisfied at a healthy rush/midrange meta, and/or bemoan the lack of a good control strategy.

Phase 5: Find bolt thrower. Realize every other deck is laughably bad against it. Test a couple of matches half-heartedly, then go back to Phase 4 meta because its about a million times more fun to play. Wait for bolt thrower to be banned (or play single-set!).

There you go. Good luck on your journey.

There are evolutions past the Bolt Thrower deck, but they are still unplayable because, despite Bolt Thrower being the best deck right now, rush is still the most played. The midrange aggro/control decks that can beat Bolt Thrower are dogs to a good rush deck and that makes them unplayable. When the majority of players shift to Bolt Thrower, which may never happen given that people may not want to be that competative or buy 3x of everything, then Bolt Thrower will not be as dominating because there will be good mechanisms to keep it in check. If the player base of this game were even a quarter of what M:tG has, then the metagame and decks would be more diverse because people could choose to play the midrange decks and have a good tournament showing knowing that there will be a large number of good match-ups at a tournament. The casual nature of W:I as of right now makes that not likely.

Competative players have found the "best deck" and the player base of the game as a whole is too casual to adapt.

I don't agree, bolt thower deck is far from that overpowered. It is very dependant on it's card draw, and so :

- if it won't draw MANY mass effects rush beats it
- DE six-scout (+ control) deck also could beat it
- a well timed support-removal removes it's only tooth, or if played early could disrupt your economy beyond repair
- if you don't draw a RBT you have 0 offense

While if you have a perfect draw it's maybe the strongest deck, but it's not as reliable as a dwarf or a rush deck.

Maybe Mining Tunnels could empower the archetype even more, but empower dwarves too, and they are lready a mach for RBT because the combination of toughness/demolition and their much more synergical and reliable economy. (as no 3 different kind of loyalty symbol for example)

Sorry, I really dont want to rehash the "why bolt thrower is best and you're dumb/a bad player for thinking otherwise" argument. Its been done to death on these forums and I'm pretty content to let it lie.

@ Darkdeal - FWIW I agree that the majority of W:I players are too casual/disinterested in playing thrower for it to really warp the game (as it should, if the game was played at a 'pro tour' level). That's fine. For my part, I approach games with intent to design the best deck possible, and since that deck is so clearly bolt thrower (given the current card pool), continuing to innovate has seemed pretty pointless for a while now. Single set is just a lot more entertaining. If someone comes up with sweet new tech or awesome cards are printed that throw off the bolt thrower choke hold, sweet. Until then I will continue on in single set, building weird triple-faction control decks and losing to Clamatius' dark elves

Clamatius said:

One quick thought, Bolt Throwers are laughably over-rated. Just be aware that while Clamatius is a very sharp individual (I highly appreciate and respect his opinions here), I believe him (and I'm not alone either) to be incorrect about how useful or effective Bolt-thrower decks are at the moment. I'll admit that against some few decks they're fairly potent but they're just so easily derailed that I can't in all good conscience tell anyone else that they're genuinely competitive. Just my opinion of course...

ddm5182 said:

LOL..."clearly bolt thrower." Good one. If you're going to GenCon we simply have to meet up for a match - it'll be fun to prove that remark badly incorrect.

ddm5182 said:

Love your analysis. This happens a lot in many games. Realize this, and games are better (or worse...).

Wytefang: we already had this debate at great length with darkdeal, where he told us that the thrower archetype wasn't great. Then he actually went and tried our list and the result was yeah, ok, it's really good. What have you tried that was any different? All I'm seeing is unsupported assertion here.

Yes, it's relatively easily derailed with Mob Up or Grimgor right now, although even against Orc/Skaven rush with 3x Mob Up maindeck I was managing around 40% win rate. Not enough people are playing Bolt Thrower for those to see play in main decks, since they are terrible in every other matchup, so unless you live in Italy (where sideboards are allowed) it's pretty much moot. I should note that most matchups are a walkover for Thrower if you know what you are doing - fast rush or maybe a lucky scout are really the only things you're afraid of.

If I was living in Italy, I would (probably) not play Thrower - Orc/Skaven or Dwarves would be my preference. But the only worries I would have personally about playing it in the US are (a) it's hard to play and over a tournament I might make significant mistakes and (b) that the number of local players is so low that one of my friends might show up with a hate deck just to beat me.

I played against a bolt thrower deck yesterday, the only problem seems build time, I managed to change my orc strategy slightly and beat it the first time i played it.

I started off well burning a zone relatively early like orcs do but by this point he was ammassing a lot of resources, had cancelations and healing down, had returned my units to my hand twice and had a bolt thrower out, so i had to change my strategy by building up the kingdom for a final push.

In the end in one turn I managed to get out 12 damage 3 of which was lost when a clan moulders was returned to my hand but 9 was still just enough to pull off the win.

I do not think bolt throwers are appropriate for tournament play, not because there not powerful, (I have a feeling none of my other decks would have been fast enough to stop it), but because of the complexity of the deck. its harder to know what a good dwaw is and mistakes seem far more costly than in other decks. So I for one wouldnt want to be in a tourney for like 3+ hours using bolt thrower.

I don't know why people are still going on and on about Bolt Thrower decks. Let me make something clear:

- If you're a casual player, and as such might not know all the ins-and-outs of strategy and the ways of the game, then you're going to suck with the BT deck. Don't argue with me, because it's true. If you're a casual magic player I'm surely not going to give you a complicated combo/control deck to play with because you're going to suck. This is the same scenario and should be treated the same.

- You CANNOT beat BT unless you pack hate for it. You can't stroll in to an event, with no hate, and then complain when you lose to BT. It's going to happen, deal with it, move on.

Wytefang. Stop. Really. The deck isn't overrated. It's simply not being played for the reason I mentioned above. Some dude in Europe won a regional with a Destruction version of the deck. While the Destruction version is perfectly fine, I don't think it's as good as the Order version.

You want to play games against BT? No problem. I'll be at GenCon, playing in Worlds, with perhaps this deck. If I can help it I'll be playing Dwarves or Empire, but who knows. Either way, I'm happy to fulfill your request to play against the deck against a competent player. If you're playing Grimgor, MobUp, and Pillage in your deck then I'm not going to waste my time but if you are then you're proving all of our points that you can't beat the deck without overloading on the hate.

/End rant.

- SF

FWIW, I think Clamatius could be lowballing the winrate of thrower vs. Orc/Skaven w/ 3 Mob Up! maindeck... I would guess it's probably closer to 50-55% in favor of thrower (though to be fair my memory might be exaggerating the losses since they are so f**king painful to sit through). Mob Up! really only helps accelerate your best draws... having 2 or even 3 in hand in the lategame often just doesnt matter, because thrower has access to its entire deck most of the time; given that thrower outdraws you and hampers your offensive acceleration so much, you must be sure you can burn a zone in one attack before using a mob up, and by that point they are generally going to have the Disdain. It comes down to whether you draw more Mob Ups than they draw Disdains, and given that your best offensive draws are also your worst at setting up a draw engine... its just not as good as it seems on the surface.

@DavidTJ - 9 damage being enough to burn Kingdom in the lategame means your opponent was playing the deck...wrong. I hear developing every single turn (just about) in a deck that forces the rush opponent to win in a single turn is good...

Starting to think it might be helpful for Clamatius and I to post some detailed game recaps turn by turn or something so you guys can examine our logic? I dont know. Its pretty shocking to me to hear people continue to claim thrower is a mediocre deck when it is so clearly overpowering the format right now. One side or the other is clearly missing something.

Don't get me wrong, I think you can definitely build haterator.dec that absolutely slaughters thrower (and as Clamatius said, if the format had sideboards the deck would really not be much of a menace at all), but maindecking a ton of narrow, bad hate cards will get you annihilated vs the field... its not as if Skaven or Dwarves arent viable deck choices after all. (As we've said before, Dwarves would probably be the deck du choix if we were going to a 5k-type event today, simply for its high margins of success against people who arent prepared for it... thrower is non-interactive enough that you will lose plenty of games even when your opponent has no idea what is going on).

This is an interesting topic. Though never having played the bolt thrower, I have played decks that run similar resource engines, so believe I'm familiar with how they work.

I don't think the deck is unbeatable by all decks that don't tech specifically against it. It is good, **** good. But it sounds like a lot of decks that this deck runs over are running like 1 set of support hate, if that.

All of the cards I've heard mentioned that tech against this deck: smash em all, pillage, grimgor, mob up, etc are all good versatile cards (maybe with the exception of grimgor) Which of these are "narrow hate cards"? Mob up eats through toughness, right? And what deck doesn't run support cards? Find me a tournament deck without 3x contested village, and 3x warpstone.

Also, I wouldn't call decks that run a subtheme of support hate "anti-bolt thrower" just decks that toolbox. Competitive decks.

If you can't supress 4 cost support cards with like 10 developments powering them, then of course you're going to get burned.

I'm curious how well Verena decks take to the BT.

So far 3x demolition, 3x will of the electors, 3x twin-tailed comet, 3x verena is a pretty nasty set of cards for every deck I've come across. Do you guys that play the BT have experience with Empire shuffling your developments around? Seems like it would be an interesting match-up.

Does a twin-tailed comet that copies a high-elf's disdain cancel the disdain? Not sure how the timing works on that one.

@ your last, AFAIK no, because once both players pass priority, the stack resolves in its entirety before new triggers/actions can go on a new stack. (which is why stuff like innovation into high elf's disdain in response to an action going on the stack doesnt work).

Verena is not a problem for a deck that runs 3x High Elf's Disdain. Sure you will occasionally mise wins off of Verena (thats what Empire does after all) but thrower draws enough cards that it will have the answer most of the time. Anyway, thrower develops enough (especially w/ mining tunnels) that 1-2 will of the electors is not going to get there most of the time. So by the time you are casting 3-4+ will and Verena to shut off their kingdom, well, lets just say they would have to be very very unlucky to not be able to counter it.

On the destruction side, Smash em all does absolutely nothing vs. thrower, we've tested it. Its really Mob Up and Grimgor that do it, over and above the standard 3x pillage setup. Show me a "toolbox" deck that uses these cards and doesnt choke hard vs. dwarves or orc/skaven? All of our decklists are posted in the deck construction forum, for reference while building.

Its all well and good to come here and give us some theorycraft about how thrower is not that bad/easily containable etc, but I want a list I can test to prove it.

Where is a deck list for this bolt thrower, I would like to test my decks against it. And am I correct, basically kill everything until you get your innovation/bolt thrower combo going? Maybe use City Gates to get out a development every turn, and Abandoned Mines to get that Bolt Thrower back if it's played as a development. Judgement of Verena and Flames of the Phoenix for mass removal. High elf's disdain to keep the thrower from being pillaged or demolitioned? Note, I'm still new at this game but an experienced MTG player so I think I get the idea on some of this stuff.

ddm5182 said:

Yeah, definitely. We can theorycraft forever

Actually, I would like to get some experience with the bolt thrower, as well as other top decks, we have kind of a small meta here. You guys tried the OCTGN, or some similar method of online play? Maybe we can play online.

I did want to re-iterate that I think the deck is **** good, definitely a top deck. I just don't agree with the assumption that it's unbeatable unless the deck is specifically designed to defeat it.

I also don't have much experience with pure rush, we've got hybrids a-plenty, but not 100% balls to the wall rush. So I can't really make assumptions regarding that type of deck.

I don't know if the forum has a spoiler tag (as to not crowd the thread with decklists) but I'll link to that empire deck I was working on.

deckbox.org/sets/9570

Now for more theory-craft!! :DDD

I agree that high elf's disdain is a great answer for verena, but there are 3, and I'd like to think that every tactic in this deck does well at disrupting bolt thrower, be it shuffling around developments or discarding support.

Also, aren't all 3 zones key to BT? if you sink all of your developments into kingdom, why wouldn't I target quest? Or battlefield for your bolt thrower?

I think you haven't really played against this deck yet.

The bolt thrower deck often only actually plays the thrower on the turn it kills you. It can kill you in response to a pillage etc. on the actual thrower itself. Saving a pillage for the thrower usually loses you the game - you want to zap the abandoned mines or contested stronghold depending on the situation.

If you want my deck list, it's in the deck building forum under "Order Thrower" or you can just look me up on deckbox.

Obviously, it's not unbeatable. The trick is to beat it and still have any game against the field. I will say though that without sideboards, some of the matchups with Thrower vs. something or other are much more lopsided than anything I ever saw playing tournament Magic.

I see.

Yeah, I've never played the deck before, thanks for the heads up.

It does seem difficult to play, I'd like to see it in action.

@kefka, I really want to try out the OCTGN but I can't seem to find a link to download the application. I own 3 of everything so I don't have any problems playing that online for free; having supported the game through purchase.

Here is my submission for the deck to beat bolt thrower and have enough tricks to win against other decks as well. Maybe I'm not playing bolt thrower correctly, but the scouts really destroy the ability of bolt thrower to generate tempo. I would love to hear from anyone willing to test this deck out and post their results.

Units:

3 x Shades (hand destruction)

3 x Gutter Runners (hand destruction + pump greyseer)

3 x Deathmaster (assassin against unit decks)

3 x War Hydra (combos with... Followers of Mork and Har Ganeth to reset her resource tokens)

3 x Followers of Mork

3 x Walking Sacrifice (combo with Har Ganeth for free card every turn)

3 x Greyseer Thanquol

3 x Vile Sorceress (combo with Followers of Mork and Har Ganeth. At the start of your turn, use Vile Sorceress to give Mork -1 hp, then bounce him back to your hand with Har Ganeth, play him again, direct damage to War Hydra, gain 2 resources, pump into Bolt thrower) you get the idea

Tactics:

3 x Mob up

3 x Pillage

3 x Smash go Boom

3 x Chillwind (combo with Gutter Runner to use it turn it comes into play)

Support:

2 x Reaper Bolt Thrower (combo with War Hydra and Followers of Mork) probably only need 2, the deck usually wins before even thinking about using the bolt thrower

3 x Contested Village

3 x Warpstone Excavation

3 x Shrine to Nurgle ( to help slow enemy units and it's a 3 cost 1 power play great for the start of the round) This is one slot that could probably be suited for something better

3 x Har Ganeth ( to return War Hydra, Follower if Mork and Walking Sacrifice as needed)

Strategy: Get up to 4 power in the Kingdom, then start hitting with Shades and Gutter Runners ASAP. Use War Hydra as blocker preferably on the quest side. Destroy support cards with pillage and smash go boom ASAP to further hinder tempo. What do you guys think?

EDIT:

-3 shrine to nurgle and +3 Festering Nurglings. Same cost but the Nurglings can be returned to hand later via Vile Sorceress/Har Ganeth and replayed if needed to corrupt a blocker.

I think the thing you are missing is not that the bolt thrower deck is unbeatable, it's that you will have a hard time running something that can beat it and still do well against the rest of the field (when sideboards don't exist). It's relatively easy to build a deck that will beat it "in a vacuum". I would be surprised if the deck you posted didn't lose hard to any of the other competitive decks I have posted. Go build the Orc/Skaven deck I posted and you'll see what I mean.

The best bet is probably Orc/Skaven with Mob Up and Pillage, or maybe a singleton Grimgor instead of Mob Up. DE/Skaven double scouts with Burn It Down would do it too. I am not excited about the prospect of paying 4 for Pillage in other matchups and Burn It Down seems like the least unpleasant option of getting some support removal in there.

Just curious, does the Followers of Mork + War Hydra combo actually work like ivory_tower assumes? I mean FoM is Forced, so if you slap one of the damage on WH, it'll die before it can kick in its Action:, no?