Chess Prodigy's (Miskatonic, F25) character ability states:

"Fast. When Chess Prodigy commits to a story on your turn, name a struggle type. Resolve that struggle type at that story by counting investigation icons instead of the struggle type's normal icons (...)."

I guess since this abililty isn't an action / response / disrupt but a passive ability, it always applies when Chess Prodigy committs to a story. But when do I actually announce the struggle type? If it was an action (similar to Unfathomable Elder Thing or Dimensional Worm), I would announce it after CP commits to a story but before the opponent commits his characters. But when do I use an ability which isn't a triggered ability? Am I still limited to the "white boxes" (ie. "actions may be taken boxes") after the "green boxes" in the Sequence of Play? Or can I wait until my opponent commits or even name the struggle type during the struggle phase?

And what happens if CP names a struggle type and is removed from the story afterwards by any effect? Is his ability still in effect since he resolved it before he was removed, ie. when he was committed to the story?

Thank you very much

Dunwich Horror said:

- The struggle is named as soon as Chess Prodigy is committed.

- If, for any reason, Chess Prodigy is no longer commited to the story (or his text box is blanked) at the time the named struggle is resolved, the passive ability is no longer in effect, thus the struggle is resolved as normal.

I believe that the choice of the word "When" in the text means that the announcement is made at the same time as the commit. So certainly before opponent gets to commit. Note that some abilities use the word "After" - clearly they intended a difference in timing.

Note that this isn't an action - this is a passive ability. Because it is not Action, Response, or Disrupt, it doesn't have to belong to a white box.

I'm not entirely sure I agree w/ the part about the chess prodigy's effect not happening if he's not at the story anymore.

If you think about all the cards that say stuff like "while so-and-so is committed to the story, something does or doesn't happen". We've always interpreted the prodigy that when he commits, you name the struggle, and it occurs w/ the investigation. If he get's removed (Pillar of flame) for example, we keep the struggle occurring w/ investigation.

I think this falls under that part in the FAQ that talks about effect durations and how they stay in effect until the end of the phase unless otherwise stated. (like 'while committed to the story')

Yes, that was our thought as well - "when he commits, he names a struggle". His condition is met as soon as he commits to a story. If the struggle type is named and he is removed afterwards, we didn't see a reason why his effect shouldn't continue during the story phase - it's not a "while he is committed" effect, his presence at the struggle after naming isn't part of his condition.

We also played that he has to name the struggle type as soon as he is committed - and before the opponent committs. But since his ability isn't an action, we were not sure about this and thought it was a passive effect for a reason (for example probably allowing him to wait for the opponent or even wait until resolving a struggle). Just wanted to be sure.

The timing of passive effects, from what I understand, is the same timing for Forced Responses. So when he commits, you'd name the struggle. There would then be actions available to both players, then opponent commits, etc etc.

KallistiBRC said:

Jhaelen is right. It's the habitual way to play this card.

The faq about duration of effect is for triggered effect .

A permanent effect is not a triggered effect.

Prodigy's effect is a permanent effect which is active when the Prodigy is in a story and shut down immediately when he is removed.

Look at another example : The Grim Wraith. This one has a Response. Once triggered this effect will stay until the end of the phase even if the Grim Wraith is removed before the resolution. The rule about duration of effect works in this case.

Grim Wraith
[shub-Niggurath] The Spawn of the Sleeper F15 / Illustrator: Michael Williams
[Character] - Monster.
Cost : 3 / Skill : 1 / Icons: T
Game Text: Response: After Grim Wraith commits to a story, choose an icon struggle at that story. Instead of resolving that struggle, resolve an additional T struggle in its place.

I'm trying to make sense out of all this, so I figure go to the source. The FAQ tells us about triggered abilities, as Dadajef indicated. Here's language from the FAQ

If a triggered ability has no specified duration, then the effects of that ability expire at the end of the current phase. “Put into play,” “Remove from play,” and “Take Control” effects are all an exceptions to this rule, and unless specified by a specific duration are considered to be permanent effects.

and

The FAQ gives us one additional bit of information that makes things a little muddier for me:

Passive abilities are “always on,” and active whenever the circumstances of their text would indicate. The main difference between a passive ability and a forced response is that the Forced Response can be cancelled .

Note the part I put in bold. I mention this because a Forced Response is a triggered ability. And the main difference between passive abilities and these particular forced responses are the cancellation component.

That leads me to think that the duration statement might actually apply to the passive abilities. Of course it doesn't say that anywhere - there is no information about duration of passive abilities in the rules or FAQ. I'm just trying to put together the pieces they've provided.

What do you guys think? Am I missing something (wouldn't surprise me!)?

I agree that the Passive ability isn't a triggered effect. And I agree w/ Dadajef's interpretation on the Grim Wraith.

I'm not sure though, that it definitely means that it has a different duration of effect because it's not a specific triggered ability. I mean, sure, we can make the argument that because it isn't specifically enumerated in the list of things that have effect until the end of the phase it doesn't have that same effect. But that opens the door to all sorts of things that aren't specifically ruled out but clearly are the case.

(Like the twilight card and ancient one on domain discussion. We all know it's not supposed to work. It's obvious, and in my play group we don't allow it. Dadajef's point about the shocking transformation clears it up well (see another thread). However, if we start the logic of "well it's not specifically stated, so it doesn't apply in this case" then the shocking transformation argument doesn't apply since there isn't a specific ruling about whether cards have text boxes while they're in the deck. We'd just say, no sorry, the rule specifically states they don't have text boxes on domains, so you can twilight the ancient one. And it's not a case of the card overruling the general rule since the twilight card itself doesn't actually give the card a text box to compare against. It's an absolutely absurd argument, but one that is 'technically' valid due to there not being a specific rule against it. It'd be like trying to say "sorry, i know you blanked Y'golonac's text box until the end of the phase, but the Infernal Obsession clearly says 'non ancient one' on it, so that's overruling the general effect of him having a blank text box, so you can't obsess him".)

(Finally, for reference, Twilight DOESN'T work on ancient ones, nor does shocking transformation, and you can infernally obsess a blanked text box ancient one. Just examples of how to bend the rules when there's a tiny crack in the specific rules against it. everybody knows what the 'real' rule is in these cases.)

I think, instead, this is one of those cases where you look for the closest ruling and apply that. Especially in light of the FAQ saying the main difference being them being that you can't cancel/disrupt a passive effect. And the closest ruling I can see is that duration of effects thing for triggered abilities. Of course, it doesn't 100% apply since it's technically not a triggered effect. So there's *definitely* valid interpretations either way.

But i think we should asume that passive effects should stop working by the time they're not in play, otherwise blanking cards is pointless (and blanking card Events that last for only a phase would be even more pointless) because you can blank something, but it would still be "in effect" till the end of the phase. I think that's precisely the way passive effects work, if they're in play they affect the game, if they're not they don't.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had some kind of official response to this?

I would say the wording on Chess Prodigy is definitely a passive affect and can't be blocked (cause its always on). Even though the affect is always on, I think the intention of the card is to name a struggle when you commit the card. Like The Professor said, that's why the card says "When". It may be always on, but its almost an if then statement. If the card is committed then name a story. You can't have the affect occur unless the first part occurs (even if it is always on). So, when the first part occurs the second part occurs.

Ech brings up an interesting point. What if the Chess Prodigy gets committed to a story, then shotgun blasted? Since the source of the passive effect is gone, so is the effect right?

I don't know if that is right or not!

I would probably play it that if the CP is removed from the story the effect goes away. BUT I can see an argument that the effect lasts until the end of the phase even if the CP is removed because of the duration issue.

Consider an event card (I know that is triggered) - the effect gets applied and the card goes away. But the effect continues even after the Event card is discarded.

TheProfessor said:

We keep digging ourselves deeper and deeper.

I don't know if I'd make the comparison between an event card and CP, because event cards are usually triggered. I always look at passive effects as always on like a light bulb. So, if you remove the light bulb, the lights gone.

I think you are right. (Actually I also HOPE you are right!) I would like to see a statement in the Rules or FAQ something like

A passive effect lasts as long as the card remains in play unless otherwise stated.

TheProfessor said:

Destroying the card after it was committed would end its effect but forcing it to uncommit wouldn't. That would be a bad inconsistency, imho.

Actually Jhaelen, I think it would help a lot. (and not only because it helps my argument... hehehe)

The way we've played it is just as was proposed by TheProfessor. You commit him, you name the struggle. If he dies / goes insane before the struggles resolve, the effect goes away. If he uncommits, the effect continues, etc.

Not really inconsistent, since it follows the same "persistent effect" logic of triggered effects.

My intuition says that the CP's effect of resolving a struggle with Investigation icons still stands even though he becomes uncommitted to the story (through death or otherwise). I've been wrong before though!

Along the lines of the Chess Prodigy, I was playing a game today over my lunch break against my girlfriend, and we came up with 2 questions based on the CP and Parallel Universe:

1. If the CP is committed first and then PU is played, does PU override the conditions of the CP?
2. If PU is played and then a CP is committed to that story, does its effect override the conditions of the PU?

My gut instinct is that PU overrules the CP in both instances (unfortunately, since my deck is the Misk deck!) because icon struggles are no longer being done based on icons but rather by skill. Anyone else care to weigh in on that?

FAQ v1.2 has just been released and addresses this issue directly on page 17:

When does the player who controls Chess
Prodigy name what struggle is being replaced?

The player who controls Chess Prodigy
names the struggle after Chess Prodigy is
committed to a story. After the struggle
type is named, the replacement effect
(counting Investigation icons instead of
that struggle’s normal icons) will take
place even if Chess Prodigy has been
uncommitted from the story or leaves
play. This type of passive effect that is
based on a trigger, will last until the end
of the turn when the trigger is met.

So ... it's a passive triggered effect? Huh.

I was more confused by "until the end of turn."

Last FAQ (and current) still state that passive effects expire at the end of the phase. This new ruling seems to break that idea. With that in mind, now how does Azalthoth work?

Chevee