Didn't really like the pre-made characters in fact the whole group thought they where complete gimps. I think being sans a large part of their rules probably was making my 1-dimensional character essentially a bit of an idiot with a gun, armour that's been made well 'ard and I'm dumping the idea of being thinky because I have NO useful skills! I mean crap, someone with a bit of Forbidden Lore Xenos? ... anyone, we're only deathwatch?

Wasn't at all challenged by the adventure, wasn't expecting to be either, so we'll call that even.

Its a fairly long, drawn out elementry education of the D-% combat system I've been running DH games for quite some time, so its good if you want to teach your new players about how to shoot and stab things, but not so good if you want anyone to do anything but shoot and stab things that already knows how that works and I got quite bored.

At several points, we really wanted to bust out old lore and start tasting enemy brains for information, eatin bricks for dinner and spitting acid on unruly rebel *******. There wasn't a rule for that.. or any of our other implants, so we where all very disappointed. I do hope there is a lot of detail on the SM's implants, they really where one of the more interesting bits of the whole SM lore I was really quite fond of. Bit negative, sorry

I love the horde rules, they've been something of an idea in the back of my head for some time that I'd like to have some rules for 'Volley Fire' for multiple combatants but being busy, never got around to doing it. These are quite good, I'll be tweaking them a little more and definately using them in DH/RT games in the future. VERY GOOD!

MKX said:

MKX said:

I had started to write up a review but essentially it was this.

As a fan of both Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader I found it simple to "fill in" what is missing from the demo adventure. For the Final Sanction / Oblivion's Edge that I'm running for my home group I've turned it into a several session mission with some additional bad guys (lictors and different rebel groups) as well as some new encounters (a search for a pod full of supplies and a sewer sweep). I've also rounded out the pregen's Skills, thrown in a couple of Talents, and added some additional equipment.

Overall though I've played or ran dozens of demo games over the years at game stores and conventions and found Final Sanction to be among the best I've played. It serves as a good intro, the action is fast, and it gives a nice sample of things to come. Though it could easily take a session or two to complete, not just a few hours. Game duration aside we are looking at a free set of rules numbering in a dozen or so pages as opposed to a $60 book with nearly 400 pages.

As a lite version of the rules it is very good. You learn enough about the rules to play the adventure, and if you have played DH/RT then there is little new with the exception of Horde Combat.

This is possibly the best part of the demo as it truly gives the Astartes a belief that they are truly gods of combat. On the back of this it allowed the 3 players I had to really get into character - with the assault marine (I agree DA and BA should be other way round thats why it's a stereo type!!!) pounding through the hordes with his power glove.

The 8 genestealers were a great match for the 3 marines. I did however allow the space wolf an awareness check to smell something (the genestealers) which he succeeded, giving him effectively a chance to act before the genestealers - which resulted in him opening fire into the 8 as they crash down into the crowd.

Using a leveral amount of full auto 2 of the marines took out 7 of the genestealers without getting hit. The assault marine had real trouble in hahnd to hand though, plagued by terrible rolls, whilst the other 2 enjoyed rolling well. Ironically vs the hordes the assault marine was smahing through them whilst the others struggled to do much even with the magnitude bonues to hit.

There is less to no detail on the Space Marines themselves, with just the basics given. However our players made Oaths at the start which got the RP'ing flowing, and as they progressed through the roleplaying of the group was good.

The adventure is nice and loose - kept very neat with the Primary/Secondary Objectives and targets of opportunity, meaning that there isn't a particular right or wrong way to go about the adventure, though there is the obvious way - Save Governor, send Astropathic message, gather PDF forces.

Overall on the back of this I have pre-ordered the game.

People said there is a lot of combat (which is really down to how the players like to play I suppose) - which there is, but that does not mean there is no role-play quiete the reverse really, as players think more about what they are doing.

Finally it is fun - waited for 23 years to Role Play the Astartes - and it has been worth the wait!

H.B.M.C. said:

But realistically, how one could imagine SMs doing some hive investigations? Of course, that could be done, but it will be highly unnatural, so to say.

egalor said:

No you're right. Because SMs aren't suitable for who-dunnits that means we can only expect combat in adventures then.

I am being sarcastic there btw. A well rounded rpg is not necessarily just a choice between investigation and combat.

Nojo509 said:

If you took what I'm saying to mean I want 'roleplaying without combat' you have read my posts wrong.

"Slightly more naritive version of the board game."

Yep. That's more or less exactly what it is. Just with out minis and with extra epic storyness. And smaller, focused on only a few marines.

Of course, Dark Heresy is basicly a slightly more nariative version of the Inquisitor board game, which actualy had a game master.

And Rogue Trader is a naritive version of.. well.. Rogue Trader.

@MKX

It's an RPG. It's a demo. If you don't see a rule for something, let them use a stat (typically at half unless you think they might be trained). It isn't rocket science as a GM to adjust to what the players want to do. One of my groups wanted to capture and fire one of the siege guns at the other rebel siege guns. There are no rules for that, nor for SM trying to work such a device. I had to improvise. So, expect that DW SM are probably trained in Xenos knowledge so even though the demo adventure doesn't give them FL:Xenos, let the PCs make an Int check.

@ egalor
But realistically, how one could imagine SMs doing some hive investigations? Of course, that could be done, but it will be highly unnatural, so to say.

Why? Easy enough to suppose there is a suspected xenos presence in the hive... or perhaps rumors of a xenos artifact ... and so on.

@Quicksilver
"Slightly more naritive version of the board game."

Yep. That's more or less exactly what it is. Just with out minis and with extra epic storyness. And smaller, focused on only a few marines.

Of course, Dark Heresy is basicly a slightly more nariative version of the Inquisitor board game, which actualy had a game master.

And Rogue Trader is a naritive version of.. well.. Rogue Trader.

I so *totally* disagree with you here. This is an RPG. If you are playing it as a more narrative version of the tabletop minis then that is your perogative, certainly, but it has much more potential than that and you are shortchanging yourself. There can be, should the GM choose, sessions or even entire campaigns with very little combat. The game can be as combat heavy or light as the GM+players want, just like any other RPG. Yes, the RPG is about DW SM, who are often called upon for combat missions ... it's like an RPG about a special forces squad (SAS, Seals, etc). There are a wide variety of missions they can go on, from gathering intel to rescuing hostages to eliminating an enemy leader to escorting a defecting spy to investigating a suspicious location, and so on.

If all you are playing is "advance as a squad and kill stuff" combat missions, then that is a problem with your GM/group, not the game itself.

dvang said:

I completely agree with dvang on this one.

Since these games are RPG's, you make of them what you will.

I have not run Final Sanction yet or it's successor, however, I can tell just by reading through it that it's going to be a blast. There are SO many roleplaying opportunities and side missions that I can come up with off the top of my head that aren't combat focussed.

Will there be combat?

Of course.

Will it be the main focus of the campaign?

No, the Space Marines and their stories are the main focus of the campaign. Their trials, tribulations, obstacles, the taste of victory, the sorrow of a lost brothers-in-arms... DRAMA !!

Reading any of the Ultramarines books would give you a better impression of what a Space Marine is... soon, you'll realize that they are good for much more than just shooting things and walking away to shoot something else. If that were the case, they would have just written one book called "Space Marines: The Normal Everyday Grind" and no more.

dvang said:

A lot of our group are long time players of DH and RT since they came out, long time role players and 20+ year collectors of the table top games, what I'm saying is that with a trilogy of RPG's set in the WH40K universe, the last one I'm at least having some grave reservations about. Most concerning is a focus that it will end up a simple hack and slash, shoot em up with very little depth and at-best I think my only real use for this would be to tack onto either my DH game as a support unit for characters when a Marine, rather than an Inquisition squad would be better suited or in RT as a detachment to the ship after some particually spectacular aquisition checks.

The demo doesn't give me any confidence to think otherwise.

MKX said:

Was it meant to? Was it meant to be a grand tale of war-room politics? It's a free adventure, written with the assumption that the players are unfamiliar with the game, so that it can be picked up and played quickly and easily by anybody. I didn't expect it to be deep and meaningful, but it was fun to GM and, from the comments of the people I ran it for, it was fun to play. As far as I can see, it succeeded in its objective. That doesn't mean I think it's perfect - I don't consider any pre-written adventure to be perfect, and I'll modify most that I run to account for the needs of my group - merely that I think it accomplished what it was written to do. Which was the RPG equivalent of a 1980s action movie.

The designer diaries tend to be written more with pre-existing players in mind, because we're the people most likely to read them. Certainly, that's the approach I took with the one I wrote.

Beyond that, no adventure, especially a demo adventure, ever depicts the absolute entirety of what can be done with a game or its setting. They're examples, certainly, but any player or GM with the tiniest spark of imagination can get more from an RPG than any prewritten adventure can provide alone. People who're familiar with the other 40kRP games should be even more able to take Deathwatch and do anything they **** well want with the rules and setting there, without needing anyone to hold their hand.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

With respect, but one of the largest selling points of the 40k RPG line was that it would allow you to play in the 40k universe without having to convert another set of mechanics to do so—all but by definition "hand holding." That people might be concerned about this doesn't really require the suggestion that someone is a "newbie," is unfamiliar with the 40k universe or whatever. Again, apologies NH. I think that I'm actually responding to a wider batch of posts than your own, so please do not take this as a personal attack against yourself. Yet the whole idea that the games or the hype work better with people familiar with the system...? I don't know.

Regardless, I'm an "outsider" to the official 40k RPG. I own all of the materials, well, at least those that have made their way to PDF, but do not use them to play the game, rather inspire me with the cool stuff and also show me how I personally don't want to go down certain directions.

No hand holding involved and it doesn't even really need that I am beholden to the other games. Just that I'm a roleplayer with my own set of experiences, preferences, and abilities.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Any game works better if you're familiar with the way it works - such is the boon of familiarity.

The point is that someone already well-versed in 40kRP (through DH and RT) will be more familiar with the rules to the point where they can easily use the tools and background provided for anything they want - that's inevitable, because such a person will already have a better idea of what works and what doesn't and what changes best suit their desires. At that point, any product in the line, any rule and any fragment of background essentially becomes an array of tools and ideas. Players of this ilk - myself included - know what they want out of the game, and know how to get it.

You've noted a few times that you've got less practical familiarity with the rules, and that you don't know them as well as others do, because you work with another system instead; almost by definition, you're likely to get less practical use out of the rules in a given rulebook or supplement, because of that lesser familiarity and because you're building your own tools rather than using the ones presented. Similar can be said of players who don't use the published settings - the background material is going to be of less immediate use because it doesn't cater directly for them. In both cases, such people know what they want, but the tools and/or ideas provided officially don't naturally work without effort.

A player with more limited roleplaying experience, however, is inherently more dependent upon the material in the books until he gains sufficient familiarity with them to start doing his own thing, be it rendering the system down to its constituent blocks, or adopting a different system altogether. . Without being disparaging, a less-experienced player requires more 'hand-holding' than an experienced one, who is generally capable of taking whatever is presented and running with it.

That reasoning established, it strikes me more that demo scenarios are more aimed at the latter group than the two before it, both of whom are quite able to dissect such a scenario and either alter it to their tastes or use it for parts in something of their own devising.

Well said, N0-1_H3r3.

As I said, I was reply to a wider phenomenon. Either way, good argument but not without the flaws of assumption.

N-1_H3r3 said >>>

The point is that someone already well-versed in 40kRP (through DH and RT) will be more familiar with the rules to the point where they can easily use the tools and background provided for anything they want - that's inevitable, because such a person will already have a better idea of what works and what doesn't and what changes best suit their desires.

Nyargle. This is a completely arguable point, and in some regards could even be a red herring, at least insofar as the story is concerned. You are, at least in my estimation, that familiarity with the rules does indeed aid in the game... But only by moving them into the background and allowing the group in question to concentrate on the story.

As to what will work or not in a given system? Yes, you're right. Familiarity with the particular system will give you, err, more familiarity with that system.

N-1_H3r3 said >>>

You've noted a few times that you've got less practical familiarity with the rules, and that you don't know them as well as others do, because you work with another system instead; almost by definition, you're likely to get less practical use out of the rules in a given rulebook or supplement, because of that lesser familiarity and because you're building your own tools rather than using the ones presented.

I wouldn't say that I don't get anything out of them. I have often found that the official 40k RPG rules have been inspirational, either positively or negatively: positively in terms of going, "OOoh, that's a good way of doing it," or negatively insofar as it identifies how not to do something. That makes them useful. Of course, this partially comes from the "tools" that I select, since they require that you use them to break down the setting, or another set of mechanics, or whatever.

Then again, I also wouldn't say that my less than detailed knowledge of the system in any way hampers me. Oh yes, certainly for the odd "argubate" where some crunchy rules sequence comes into play (I remember the "Might Shot" debacle ), but for the most part not getting mired in the convention of the system has been helpful. (Ironically, perhaps, as much as I disliked the psyker system, my own interpretation is merely a variation on what FFG have done with Rogue Trader .)

N-1_H3r3 said >>>

Similar can be said of players who don't use the published settings - the background material is going to be of less immediate use because it doesn't cater directly for them. In both cases, such people know what they want, but the tools and/or ideas provided officially don't naturally work without effort.

When it comes down to the 40k universe, I think that it would be reasonable to say that regardless of whether you use you home setting or a home brew setting, there really could do with being more information on the 40k universe.

N-1_H3r3 said >>>

A player with more limited roleplaying experience, however, is inherently more dependent upon the material in the books...

Hence the potential issue with Final Sanction and living up to the promise of the Designers Diaries.

N-1_H3r3 said >>>

That reasoning established, it strikes me more that demo scenarios are more aimed at the latter group than the two before it, both of whom are quite able to dissect such a scenario and either alter it to their tastes or use it for parts in something of their own devising.

Then in that case, the demo certainly does need more work.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

You're putting words in my mouth here - I didn't,. as the quote demonstrates, say you wouldn't get anything out of it - just less than someone like myself who does run Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch. Similarly, I'll get less out of a GURPS supplement than you will, because I don't use, and am not familiar with, that system.

Kage2020 said:

True, but while generic 40k info is useful, Calixis Sector/Koronus Expanse/Jericho Reach specific information is less directly useful because it's specific to a region the player isn't using... that's not to say that it isn't useful, perhaps as an example of what can be done, but that it's less useful than information that applies to the setting as a whole.

Hello all!

I just posted a session report for our groups run-through of Final Sanction HERE .

We had a great time, and I'll probably get around to running the next adventure in the series soon.

Prax

N0-1_H3r3 said >>>

You're putting words in my mouth here - I didn't,. as the quote demonstrates, say you wouldn't get anything out of it - just less than someone like myself who does run Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch.

I was merely demonstrating that, despite the fact that I don't use them, doesn't mean that I don't get any use out of them. More or less than someone that does use them to abstract their roleplaying sessions? They lead me to appropriate the tools out of the case of my preferred system, such as "Say No to Unnatural Attributes" (instead use scalable attributes), "Converting the Wargame is (IMO) Bad, Don't Do It" (read: don't try and convert weapon damages and armour; they just don't really work), etc. Admittedly, not as much "use" as someone that is using it every game system, but then again I wasn't really responding to the concept of volume use of the rules, just use. Volume? Yes, less use. Actual use as in usefulness? More so.

Then again, I would heartily recommend that people who play Dark Heresy go and check out GURPS Action: Exploits . It was written for Dark Heresy . It even has an index.

Strange, though, it does seem that there are certainly people out there that don't understand buying a system that they're never going to use. Oh well, it's all good, though. Certainly does improve sales and all that.

N0-1_H3r3 said >>>

True, but while generic 40k info is useful, Calixis Sector/Koronus Expanse/Jericho Reach specific information is less directly useful because it's specific to a region the player isn't using... that's not to say that it isn't useful, perhaps as an example of what can be done, but that it's less useful than information that applies to the setting as a whole.

Errrr... 40k fans have been taking the generic and the specific and shaping it into something that they can use. If by "use" you're referring to "as written" then you might be right. That or a reference to how everything "varies from <something> to <something>."

No worries, though.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

I have done so in the past. I occasionally still do so now... but generally speaking, I can't afford to indulge too much in RPG books that I'm not going to use as anything more than reading material, mainly because if I don't like the material, then the book ends up in a box under my bed, never to be looked at again, while if I do like the material, I end up wanting to run it, and I don't have enough time for that...

Remember, just because someone doesn't do something, doesn't mean they don't understand it..

Kage2020 said:

And once again we get to "lines drawn in the sand", where discussion has turned to argument for no memorable reason. That, and an inability on both sides to precisely convey what they mean. I'm not specifically disagreeing with that point, but you're making out the point I'm making to be more sweeping and absolute than I intend it to be.

It's all a matter of degrees, often very, very tiny degrees. Someone who uses the Calixis Sector can use Calixis Sector information 'out of the box' if he so chooses... someone who doesn't use the Calixis Sector can't. It may take only scant seconds of adjustment to adapt that material for their own purposes, but that's still a difference, a matter of differing degrees of utility. That's the nearest end, the point at which the difference is smallest.

The same applies to the entirety of my last few posts in this thread - you've been assuming or inferring something different to my intent every time (case in point; I'm discussing relative utility based on player experience and intended use; you keep protesting that it "doesn't mean that [you] don't get any use out of them", when that has never been what I've said.

People who wish to see lines in the sand will do so, no matter of whether they are there or not. I made an observation that I felt illustrated your statements were to be erroneous. You selected to see it otherwise, and that's fair enough. Seems that understanding thing is a double edged sword.

I shall leave it at that, and the thread at this, and go and find some discussion elsewhere.

/Kage

Kage2020 said:

Really? Because every one of your responses argued against a point that I hadn't made. Each time you've made the point that "[you] wouldn't say that [you] don't get anything out of them", when at no point have I ever made any such assertion. There is, afterall, more than a small difference between not getting any use from something and getting less use from something (inasmuch as something is inherently less useful if work has to be put in to make use of it, as opposed to being able to use it whole cloth). Beyond all that, it completely trundles past one of my points - that greater familiarity with a given set of rules is inherently going to be advantageous when running a game using those rules, whether or not (based on some of your comments on Dark Reign) you feel that to be a weakness (which strikes me as bizarre... what, people should be less able to use a system they're more familiar with).

That's it, though. Done... quite frankly, if you're going to deliberately and repeatedly misquote me in order to make your point, whatever that may be, then there's clearly no point in discussing anything with you.

Kage2020 said:

My God ! An index !? ... but ... that's impossible in a game book. It must have taken them years to produce that thing, and it must have cost the earth to buy ... because indexing a book is next to impossible.

You'll be telling me GURPS produces setting sourcebooks next ... oh wait.

Played today with two players and 4 characters (I was worried about 2 marines being not enough, and the follow-up adventure I was looking at said to cut down in half the encounters if there were less than 4 marines). One player was a veteran (in fact my usual GM for Dark Heresy) and the other someone new to the game (but proud owner of a Space Marine army).

My impressions:

First, the hordes can take too much time to dispatch. Second, I took us 4 hours to "complete" the Portica District, and that was only because all the freed PDF's from the PDF base were sent to the Space Port in order to keep things in check until the marines arrived from the last location.

Third, the Apothecary is useless in most of the outdoor fights: the enemies don't reach him. Also, the first fight near the chapel is awfully bad presented: in the horde profile, it reads the horde moves 18 meters per round. However, in the "bunker" turning point it says they need only 5 turns to run through the 200m killzone...

Fourth: more detail was required to the hordes. After all, it's the new component in the rulebook (almost all of the rest comes from Dark Heresy without any trouble at all), and no mention of what to do after an horde breaks down and flees is quite strange (personally, I ended fusing broken hordes for later use).

Fifth: the marine distribution of roles. As adressed before, I found quite strange to see the Blood Angel as the ranged specialist and the Dark Angel as the melee one. Not to mention, my players directly tossed aside the DA because of their "animosity" with the Space Wolves, and the Ultramarine being an Apothecary instead of a Tactical marine was strange, specially being that one the "clonable" one (the new player said something about not existing Tactical Marines in the SW, also, pointing that the most close to that would be "Grey Hunters" or something like that); fortunately, the additional characters provided two extra tactical marines, one of them an ultramarine. However, the players chose Apothecary, StormWarden, Devastator and Space Wolf.

Finally, the character sheets were awfully bad designed, they could have had a weapons and gear description in the back or something like that. I had to dictate the weapons profiles and the armor's characteristics, and that took time.

In short, my primary impression could be resumed in: the hordes needed more detail, and the characters could have been made more friendly to new players.