I have this issue virtually every time we have an outdoor encounter in Road to Legend: how do trees affect large monsters, particularly large monster movement?

The FAQ has a wonderfully unhelpful related answer that doesn't even begin to image all of the ramifications of its own wording:

Large Monsters and Terrain
When large monsters move, they can sometimes find themselves moving across hazardous terrain (lava, scything blades) twice as often as other figures. Further, it can often be confusing whether or not beneficial terrain (trees, elevated terrain) should affect a creature only partly standing on it. Use the following guidelines to arbitrate these instances.
The overlord may choose to have a monster affected by any terrain it partially occupies. A monster MUST be affected by any terrain it completely occupies. If the monster is completely occupying multiple terrains, the figure has to be affected by one of the terrains (Overlord's choice).

And in case you're not familiar with trees:

Tree
Block Movement? No
Block Line of Sight? Yes
It costs two movement points to enter a tree space. A figure in a tree space is considered to have the Shadowcloak ability. Large monsters only need to occupy one tree space to benefit from this ability.

If I'm missing anything else related in the official rulings, please let me know. Assuming I'm not, let's look at the following popular RtL outdoor tile. T = tree, O = open space, X = wall, or whatever.

XOOX
OTTO
OTTO
XOOX

It's a cross intersection with a 2x2 set of trees in the center. Now let's say I've got an ogre, a 2x2 creature, coming up from the left and going to the right. What happens when he makes his first move into the trees? He's going to be only half occupying them, so according to the first ruling, I can choose to have him not be affected by the trees, right? Which means I don't pay any extra movement? When the heroes' turn rolls around, and they attack him, can I choose to have him affected by the terrain at that point? Thus, I get none of the disadvantage of the trees (extra movement cost) but all of the advantage (Shadowcloak)?

And now let's say I move into the center of the tile, so that I'm completely occupied by trees. At this point, I no longer get to choose - I am affected by the trees. So I have to use Shadowcloak. Whoo. But what of movement? I'm definitely entering two tree spaces, and sort of entering two more (am I?). Do I have to pay two extra movement, effectively giving my ogre one space of movement this turn? Do I have to pay four extra movement, giving me zero?

How does this work?

Cymbaline said:

1. If you choose to have him not be affected by the trees, then he is not affected by the trees. You can't suddenly change your choice later and avoid the penalties while gaining the benefits. It is a choice you make while moving that you are stuck with until you move again. When the Ogre moved, he either got in the tree or he didn't (your choice). He doesn't get to magically leap into the tree during the heroes turn.

2. You pay one extra movement. If you are completely occupying multiple terrains you only have to be affected by one of them. It is clear and specific in the very text you quoted

Cymbaline said:

The way I play it, the Overlord must choose whether or not he is affected by a given piece of terrain when he enters it. Once that choice is made, it sticks until the monster next activates. So, when the Ogre enters the first two trees, if he chooses not to be affected by the trees then he won't pay any extra movement, but he will also not get the benefit of Shadowcloak on the heroes' turn (fair is fair.) If he does choose to be affected, he pays ONE extra movement and will get Shadowcloak.

Cymbaline said:

As you noted, you are only entering two tree spaces (you already occupied the previous two.) I would personally say you only pay one extra movement, but this is pretty shady territory. Unfortunately the rules for oversized monsters and movement costs is not well defined. There is also the interpretation that you pay two extra movement points, which is probably closer to RAW really. My own ruling is mostly just gut reaction, btw. I don't think you need to pay 4 since you were already in the other two trees so you haven't exactly "entered" them this turn (also because it would make it impossible to move some large creatures that only have 3 MP without help from a charge or something.)

The main problem here is that the rules don't really seem to specify whether shifting another part of your oversized base into a space you already occupied is considered "entering" that space, or if it's treated like you just stayed there (and also happened to enter other spaces with the rest of your base.) I'm inclined to say it's the latter, myself.

In my opinion the rules are silent for large monsters movement costs. Read strictly, a large monster has to pay 2 MP whenever it moves onto a tree space, regardless how many.

The FAQ entry merely mentions hazardous or beneficial effects, that are for the Overlord to choose. Movement costs are neither hazardous nor beneficial, they just "are".

@ Corbon: 1. Care to point out on what you are basing your opinion that the OL has to select the effect or non-effect for a specified amount of or at a certain point in time?

Corbon said:

"Clear and specific"? Hmm...

So with answer 1, how can an ogre gain the benefit of a tree he's standing on that he didn't pay movement cost for? While I can see some logic to your "pick when you move" answer, as Parathion says, I don't see anything in the rules that says I have to pick at a specified time and then that lasts till some other specified time. It just says I get to pick what I'm affected by.

I dig Steve-O's ruling, though. Seems to make the most sense / strike the best balance.

Parathion said:

" The overlord may choose to have a monster affected by any terrain it partially occupies. "

To my way of thinking, if a figure is not affected by a terrain type then it does not pay any costs or gain/suffer any effects. Everything about that terrain is treated as if it didn't exist, and this includes extra movement costs. Likewise, if a figure is affected by terrain, then he must pay and be affected by everything just as normal. The question section separates hazardous and beneficial effects to illustrate the issue, the answer blanket covers everything about the terrain type in question.

Parathion said:

By a strictly literal reading of the rules you might have a point here, however, there is such a thing as fair play, even in a notoriously twisted game like Descent. If the OL chooses not to be affected by the trees when moving, he should not be affected by them later when Shadowcloak comes into effect.

If you ever tried to pull this **** at my table it would be the last time I ever played with you.

No need for strong language, Steve. Doesn´t suit you very well.

So, you never move a Soaring creature onto a tree space, ignoring the extra movement cost (as per the rules), then disable Soar to land (as per the FAQ) and benefit from Shadowcloak (as per the rules) despite the fact you didn´t pay for entering the tree space? Or do you disallow disabling Soar on a tree space if the creature doesn´t want to or isn´t able to pay an extra MP for a space it already occupies?

As I said, movement costs are not mentioned in the FAQ entry at all, and terrain effects can and should be viewed separately from the costs to enter them.

Of course you can make up sensible rules, that the OL has to make a choice (effect/no effect) as soon as the creature moves onto such a space, and the choice should be valid until - when? Next activation? Next movement? Alterable without moving at all?

But these rules would still be made up - that´s why I was asking Corbon for further elaboration (I might have overlooked a rules passage, yet i doubt it in this case).

I should note that this is the third attempt by the FAQ to revise the rules for large monsters and terrain away from something that was simple and clear to something more complicated, for somewhat dubious reasons. The previous two attempts were basically completely unusable. This one is improved enough that you can possibly claim you are following it while playing in some vaguely sane fashion, but it's still definitely ambiguous: you can argue that you are following it while playing in any of multilple vaguely sane fashions. The fact that it fails to distinguish between effects for entering terrain, effects for leaving terrain, and effects for being in terrain, and never tells you when you choose or how much stuff goes together, is its major problem.

Under the original rules, there were some terrain effects that worked on large monsters if any part of them touched it, and other effects that only worked on large monsters if all of them touched it. Dart fields and scything blades work the first way, and you could think of rubble, water, and other movement-blocking effects as also working that way; pits, mud, lava, and ice work the second way. I don't remember all the RtL terrain rules. That's simple, doesn't require making choices (or remembering them later), and just means that some terrain hurts large monsters more while other terrain hurts them less.

On a side note, an ogre moving through the terrain you showed can move diagonally in/out of the middle section and never occupy more than 2 tree spaces at once, if you want.

Parathion said:

1. Bad example. Soaring Creatures all have Fly and can move onto the Tree with no cost while still gaining all benefits. Soar also specifies the landing mechanism where a monster at any time during its turn may declare it has 'landed' and is no longer soaring, so even without Fly you can do what you are talking about perfectly legally and reasonably.

2. Movement costs are part of terrain effects. Indeed, for some terrain they are the only effect! Your claim that movement costs and terrain effects should be viewed separately has no real basis (AFAICT), though I assume you are extrapolating from the knockback/deepwater ruling.

3. I think it is the other way around. You have to make up extra rules to allow the OL to change his choice without moving.
The overlord may choose to have a monster affected by any terrain it partially occupies
It doesn't say "choose at any time" or "choose whenever he feels like it" or "and change his choice at any time". It just says the OL chooses. By default, that is once, at the time of first opportunity (ie when moving). You make your choice and that is it, you are either in the terrain or not. Not only does that follow the rules without adding anything, it is also the most 'fair' way to read it and the most reasonable way to read it thematically (a worthless point vs actual rules text, but not entirely worthless in a case like this).

@Cymbaline
Yes, Clear and specific.
FAQ pg2
If the monster is completely occupying multiple terrains, the figure has to be affected by one of the terrains (Overlord's choice).
If you occupy 4 trees, you only have to be affected by 1.
Trees are individual terrains (at least so far - just look at them on the map, unlike many others which may be multiple spaces).

I hadn't noticed the FAQ ruling about large critters being able to ignore terrain if they weren't completely in it, now that I've read this I have another question relating to large monsters:

If the large monster can ignore terrain he's not completely within, does that mean he can partially occupy impassible terrain like water or rubble?

Thanks,

Twak

twak2 said:

No, because the effect of the terrain is that you can't enter it, and he can only ignore it's effects if he enters it.

1. Bad example. Soaring Creatures all have Fly

This is incorrect. Dragon, Demons, and Manticores have Soar but don't have flying. It's all flying creatures that have Soar, not vice versa.

Corbon said:
Bad example. Soaring Creatures all have Fly and can move onto the Tree with no cost while still gaining all benefits. Soar also specifies the landing mechanism where a monster at any time during its turn may declare it has 'landed' and is no longer soaring, so even without Fly you can do what you are talking about perfectly legally and reasonably.

I think this misses the point entirely. The way I read it, Parathion was presenting something unquestionably legal in order to demonstrate there's nothing inherently wrong with a creature being able to take advantage of a tree without paying for it. If a creature with Soar has a built-in rules loophole to avoid the cost, then why couldn't a large monster have a built-in rules loophole to avoid the cost? It's certainly not game-breaking.

Corbon said:
You have to make up extra rules to allow the OL to change his choice without moving.
It doesn't say "choose at any time" or "choose whenever he feels like it" or "and change his choice at any time". It just says the OL chooses. By default, that is once, at the time of first opportunity (ie when moving). You make your choice and that is it, you are either in the terrain or not.

This "default" interpretation is but one of many perfectly reasonable readings. It's just as sensible to think the OL chooses whenever it comes up in the game, because (as Parathion already stated) we're never told how long the choice lasts. Can you change your decision on your next activation without moving? Can you change your decision when you move without leaving and re-entering a terrain space? (Ogre's front half starts on tree, rear half ends on tree.)

Corbon said:
Not only does that follow the rules without adding anything, it is also the most 'fair' way to read it and the most reasonable way to read it thematically

The rule is not even defined, so I don't know how you can say your interpretation follows it and someone else's does not follow it. And I really don't know if it's the most 'fair' way to read it. Large monsters have absurdly low movement, so it seems pretty fair and reasonable to me that they'd get terrain advantages to partially negate that weakness.

Corbon said:
@Cymbaline
Yes, Clear and specific.
If you occupy 4 trees, you only have to be affected by 1.

+1

Twak said:
If the large monster can ignore terrain he's not completely within, does that mean he can partially occupy impassible terrain like water or rubble?
Corbon said:
No, because the effect of the terrain is that you can't enter it, and he can only ignore it's effects if he enters it.

I see what you're saying here, but this reasoning seems dangerously circular to me. If water and rubble really are terrain, I might be okay with large monsters ignoring them. The concept seems reasonable, and it would make large monsters a lot more usable in dungeons. However, I'm not sure what really counts as terrain in this game; I've always thought of water & rubble as "obstacles", not "terrain".

James McMurray said:

Quite right, my bad, sorry.

mahkra said:

1. It is a pathetic argument that claims that because you can do something using a special ability, you should be able to do it in general. Indeed, if anything, the reverse applies!

2. It is not just as sensible. The rule says "(you) may choose" . That's singular language. It doesn't say make a bunch of choices. It doesn't say change your choice whenever you feel like it. It doesn't say chose any time it is important, it just says choose .
To make more than one choice you have to add something to the basic rule. To make only one choice you follow the rule exactly as it says, no more, no less.
Now saying that the choice must be made when you moved is sort of adding something - except that you have to make a choice then anyway, if there are associated costs.

3. The rule is defined, you are just choosing to ignore it.
The fair thing is just a personal comment. It's 'fair' because you get the benefits if you pay the costs, and if you don't pay the costs you don't get the benefits. As an aside, I'd hate to have you 'judge' anything on fairness since you are basically saying "this guy has a disadvantage so we'll give him a freebie" and completely ignoring the merits of the actual case, so to speak.

4. Whether or not it's circular isn't material. The rule for impassable obstacles is that you can't enter them. The rule for large monsters is that when occupying terrain, they can ignore it's effects under certain conditions. If you can't enter it in the first place, then you never occupied it and never got to the stage of ignoring the effects. How much simpler do you need something to be?
FFG even officially changed a location effect so that Large monsters were allowed to enter the 'impassable' trees at this location.

Corbon said:

Yes. While outdoors (not while in a dungeon) creatures with the Soar ability have all the benefits of Fly in addition to Soar. Likewise, creatures with Fly retain all those benefits while outdoors, in addition to gaining the benefits of Soar.

My point on the movement costs was missed entirely:

"The overlord may choose to have a monster affected by any terrain it partially occupies ."

To occupy a space, a figure has to enter it. To enter it, it has to pay the movement costs, in the case of trees that would be 2 MP.

As I said, read strictly the OL cannot choose to ignore any movement costs for entering a terrain space. (If movement costs were truely an effect of a terrain space, which the OL can choose to ignore, the monster could move onto it for free. Or would some of you now say that only costs beyond the first standard MP are a terrain effect?!).

Side note: Corbon said:

@Cymbaline
Yes, Clear and specific.
FAQ pg2
If the monster is completely occupying multiple terrains, the figure has to be affected by one of the terrains (Overlord's choice).

If you occupy 4 trees, you only have to be affected by 1.
Trees are individual terrains (at least so far - just look at them on the map, unlike many others which may be multiple spaces).

Now, in my opinion this is utterly misunderstanding the FAQ entry. Multiple terrains most obviously mean multiple types of terrain, e.g. trees and scything blades. Since the ruling that the OL may ignore any terrain the creature doesn´t occupy with all its spaces, he could choose to ignore the occupied tree part and the occupied scything blade part under his monster, leaving it completely unaffected in the end. To avoid this, the cited FAQ statement was given.

Corbon said:

If it were clear and specific, I don't think we'd be having this conversation. Clear and specific, to me, is A) addressing this situation or one exactly like it specifically, and B) something that does not happen in Descent.

As Parathion has more or less mentioned, the occupying is at odds with entering. If you don't have to pay the movement cost for a tree when entering its space because you're also occupying other spaces, and you can choose which, if any, terrains to be affected by, then ogres should be able to move over rubble. I don't want to be affected by that terrain, so I don't suffer any of the consequences (not being able to enter), nor do I gain any of the benefits.

For what it's worth, I don't think that ogres should be able to enter rubble, nor should they be able to cross water. Thematically, it makes sense that they could get over water, since they can get over pits, but you can't jump over water like you can over pits, and we all know where thematically gets us. I also tend to agree with the output of your reasoning - that an ogre moving into four tree spaces (or two and two halves, however you like to view it) - only has to pay one extra movement. But it's confused and at odds with some terrain - like rubble and water.

Double post, since I can't edit: While we're here, why not have some fun with pits? I almost hate to ask this, but...

Let's say an ogre is hanging out next to a 2x2 pit, and is going to move to the other side of it.

1. When he takes his first step "into" the pit, so to speak - 2 tiles in the pit, 2 on regular ground - can he choose not to enter the pit? (I'd say pretty easily yes).
2. Can he choose to enter the pit? (I guess I'd say yes, even though that's weird to me.)
3. If he chooses to enter the pit, can he draw line of sight from the two tiles outside of the pit to tiles several spaces away? (I'd say no, but...)
4. Now he's in the pit, and we more or less have the same questions in reverse, but only one of them is really tricky:
5. Can he move halfway out of the pit - 2 tiles in the pit, 2 tiles on regular ground - without exiting the pit? (I guess I'd say yes here, too, but it seems odd.)
6. Just for kicks, assuming he's allowed to be in the pit while only half his tiles are, a boulder could safely roll over him, right?
7. So you could, (highly) theoretically fit two dragons into a 2x2 pit for the purposes of safety from a rolling boulder? Or, for that matter, a 2x1 pit?

Questions:

1. When he takes his first step "into" the pit, so to speak - 2 tiles in the pit, 2 on regular ground - can he choose not to enter the pit? (I'd say pretty easily yes).
2. Can he choose to enter the pit? (I guess I'd say yes, even though that's weird to me.)
3. If he chooses to enter the pit, can he draw line of sight from the two tiles outside of the pit to tiles several spaces away? (I'd say no, but...)
4. Now he's in the pit, and we more or less have the same questions in reverse, but only one of them is really tricky:
5. Can he move halfway out of the pit - 2 tiles in the pit, 2 tiles on regular ground - without exiting the pit? (I guess I'd say yes here, too, but it seems odd.)
6. Just for kicks, assuming he's allowed to be in the pit while only half his tiles are, a boulder could safely roll over him, right?
7. So you could, (highly) theoretically fit two dragons into a 2x2 pit for the purposes of safety from a rolling boulder? Or, for that matter, a 2x1 pit?

Answers:

1) Yes, he can choose.

2) Same as above, yes he can choose.

3) Once the Ogre chooses to enter the pit, he STAYS in it till the start of its next turn. If it chooses NOT to enter the pit, it STAYS outside till the start of its next turn. So for ur question, if he chooses to enter the pit, he will NOT be able to have LoS any further than the adjacent squares around the pit. (You are right, the answer is no)

4) Wheres the question?

5) As mentioned in answer 3, yes he CAN do that without moving at all, but you have to declare out loud to your players on your choice of being IN the pit or OUTSIDE it everytime its the start of the Ogre's turn.

6) If he chose to be IN the pit at the start of his current turn, the boulder WILL roll safely over him.

7) Yes. Game rules allow it so. As many fellow players here will tell you, don't question the logic or everything will fall apart. But the answer is yes, you can.

Cymbaline said:

No it is not. It is just Parathion bringing out a strange reading that might be technically correct in some manner but is completely opposite from what the rule is trying to convey. It's not his fault that the people writing this stuff don't have a technical writing clue.

The whole thing is real simple (though difficult to explain in a technically correct way). Occupying and entering are almost the same thing - occupying is being in the space but in order to occupy the space (be there) you must enter it first (go there) with the two meeting at the 'get there' point. Most 'entry' costs are actually costs required to 'get there' - you pay for them when you get there, not 'before you may enter'. Impassability is slightly different because it's 'cost' is a prevention of entry/occupation (it is a 'cannot go there' cost).
An example: if you attempt to leap over a Tree space and are interrupted with a Knockback attack on the Tree space. You must have actually entered the tree space in order for the attack to go ahead, but you never occupy that space. You don't pay the entry costs for the tree space because even though they would be described as an 'entry' cost they are actually a 'get there' cost not a 'go there' cost.

Consequently, in order to move into 4 tree spaces the Ogre is 'getting there' into 4 terrains. As it gets there it is occupying 4 terrains and needs only to pay for one of them. That is not at any way at odds with being unable to go there with impassable terrains.

That probably didn't make any sense, but I'm too tired to sort it out any further...

Cymbaline said:

You mean, he begins all 4 spaces in a pit, and moves 2 spaces out without actually leaving the pit. I believe the answer is yes, that's legal. He doesn't pay the extra movement cost until he leaves the pit, which he would be forced to do once none of his base is in the pit.

Cymbaline said:

According to these rules, yes. It makes my head hurt to imagine it, but technically I believe you are correct. Here's another one: Two 3x2 pits with a 1x2 strip of non-pit in between them, along the 2-wide edge. A dragon in one of these pits could move to the other without ever leaving his "in the pit" status, although I would probably force him to incur the extra MP for climbing out of the first pit at some point in there just for the sake of sanity.

Wanderer999 said:

Could you tell me where this is coming from? While I'm fine with that as a house rule, as Steve-O more or less mentioned, what I'm getting from the real rules and all of this discussion is that your status as on or off of terrain doesn't change until you move - it has nothing to do with turns.

Corbon: That probably didn't make any sense, but I'm too tired to sort it out any further...

I think I understand, and have gotten the answer I need out of this discussion, but... well, the rules as written leave me wanting. What's new? I am a software engineer by trade, and so clear to me means that I could put the rules into a computer. The majority of Descent simply does not fulfill that criteria, and I am left wanting.

Steve-O: Good call. The brain, it hurts.

Cymbaline said:

Actually I was referring to the same exact thing as what you said - movement. To me, I called it the start of the Ogre's turn (basically when he is activated and can do his movement) if you intend to stay in the pit or out of the pit, it should be declared aloud instead of just keeping silent about it only to later claim that you are choosing to be IN or OUT of the pit in the same turn when things turn in favor against you. So yes, this is all from the real rules and from the official rule books. But I probably should have said 'when it is time for the Ogre's movement' instead of 'start of its next turn'

Cymbaline said:

I think Wanderer was just emphasizing that the only time a large figure's status regarding terrain can change is during that figure's turn. A figure can usually only move during his own turn, so this isn't really contradictory to what I (or anyone else here) was saying. I suppose Knockback, if it's powerful enough to affect a large figure, would be one good example of a time this decision would need to be made outside that figure's turn.

I would be inclined to allow a large figure to change which terrain he's being affected by without actually moving, if his base was covering more than one type. Since I personally don't incur movement costs until the figure gets affected by said terrain, then he would have to pay any associated movement costs at the time, even if he didn't actually move. It would appear some others hold the position that movement costs should be paid whether or not the figure is affected by particular terrain (which could very well be correct - this is one of Descent's many ambiguous areas.) If you go by that philosophy then I suppose there wouldn't be any additional movement costs unless you actually moved the figure, since you've already paid for every piece of terrain you're standing in. Either way, you could only get out of the tree and onto the mud (or what-have-you) while that figure is activated.