Cifer said:

Thank you Cifer (and to Mack Martin) for this answer. It definitely settles the matter with a RAW/RAS verdict.

Also thanks to everyone participating in this discussion. Too bad I haven't had time to chime in before, but I don't think I could have added much meaningful comments anyway

However.. I'm not sure if this is "right" for me and my campaign. I've yet to dole out IPs and CPs in my game besides in conjunction with Fear tests, and I don't really know when to since the system for insanity and corruption is so closely linked to the system for Fear and Shock.

In fact by the strict reading of the rules and guidelines, non combat insanity is still caused by Fear tests. Seeing horribly maimed corpses? Fear rating 1. Staring into the Warp? Fear Rating 4. There are no examples or guidelines of giving out IPs or WPs when there is no Fear involved.

In essence that PC becomes immune to fear, insanity, horror, corruption.. and I'm not sure if I like that.

So house rule suggestion: Fearless characters still roll Fear tests, using whatever modifiers applicable. On a failure of 30 or more they take 1d5 IP and possibly Corruption from Warp Shock. They have mental traumas, mental disorders and Malignancy/Mutation as normal.

To compensate, they are allowed to disengage from combat at will as long as the intention is to attack someone/something else.

Anyone like how that sounds?

Friend of the Dork said:

Immune to fear, certainly, but there are plenty of other sources of IP and CP that can and will affect the character. Daemonic possession and psykers messing with your mind will still give you IP and reading forbidden warp texts will still corrupt. Personally I think Fearless is fine, by the rank certain characters are permitted to obtain it they should be immune to the horrors of the dark millennium . Otherwise, a career facing down daemonic and/or xenos entities becomes nigh impossible, as opposed to simply being short.

Your house rule certainly prevents the character from being immune to fear but I think it fixes a problem that Fearless was designed to overcome and doesn't account for the alternative sources of IP/CP outside of fear. Instead of a blanket change to Fearless it might be better to say that there are certain situations so anathema to the character that their previous experiences will not protect them and Fearless or not they have to make the Fear test and suffer its effects as if they didn't have it.

Khouri said:

Well considering they have to fail by 30 or more, most character at that level will not take much IPs or CPs. Against exceptionally horrible daemonic entities, yes, but then again with resistance: Fear, Unshakable Faith and Fate Points to boot, they should be alright.

But I don't like even Inquisitors to be immune.

What plenty of other sources? Possession is one... which is very rare. And frankly, the few IPs you get from it is nothing compared to probably not surviving it at all AND -2d10 to WP and one more stat.

Psykers messing with your mind? Well there are few Powers which actually cause insanity, the most common one is Fearful Presence which is a Fear-effect. As said very few powers indeed that gives IP from a non-Fear scource.

The effects of reading warp texts are not specified in the core rules.. maybe DotDG? Gaining Forbidden Lore nets you 1 CP per skill, so yeah that's a scource... but not a very dangerous one.

As for your suggestion, well it seems like "Fearless always works unless I feel like it won't." It's a bit too vague. I would be more inclined to limit the amount of Fear tests rolled for everyone.. for example if facing tons of Slaught each and every one does not cause a Fear test, and once used to there is little call for a new one unless you learn something particularly disturbing about them.

Khouri said:

What about the other things that can make PCs fear immune ?

- Rite of pure thought: They aren't immune to fear because they have built up an immunity to it, they are immune because they removed the parts of the brain that tells them to be afraid.

- From Beyond: Their mind is so different from human normal that fear doesn't trigger.

Do you plan to also apply this house rule to them where it doesn't make sense ?

Then take a look at the flavour text for fearless: Whether through fervent loyalty or a derangement of the mind ...

Your idea could make sense if they are fearless through loyalty, but if they are fearless through derangement it suggest that, once again, we have someone becoming fearless because they broke part of their brain that processes fear.

There are plenty of other sources of Insanity and Corruption that are not Fear because there are plenty of other sources that are not, in fact, covered by the Dark Heresy Core Rulebook because they are beyond it's scope.

Case in Point: Empyrean Conduit Blade hitting a non-Demonic target causes both Corruption and Insanity points. Also, many Perils of the Warp have commensurate Corruption points being doled out.

Just because a character is Fearless, giving immunity to Fear ratings and therefore immunity to Corruption Points gained via "warp shock" by no means insists that this character is immune to those items entirely. As a game master there are dozens if not hundreds of other sources which correspond to the gaining of these points. Participation in or close proximity to Dark Rituals, proscribed texts full of heresy and vile secrets, Sorcery, etc etc etc. The simple fact that the main source of them which is stat-ed out in detail is Fear does not demand that it is even the major source.

Frankly the Fear system is so in-depth and specific because it can be. There is no system, for example, for the reading of evil books because each book is unique to your campaign, provides more or less points, causes Insanity or Corruption or both, and so on. It is up to your GM to create encounters and items which feature imaginative extrapolation of both source material and the rules system.

Bilateralrope said:

I don't intend to apply it at all, I like Fearless exactly the way it is. I don't mind that it makes a fairly high-end character immune to fear and warp-shock, by that stage it is rather annoying to have characters shutdown and become useless when facing the bigger bads that start to creep out of the woodwork.

Psychic phenomena can cause both IP and CP, so simply being around a psyker or sorcerer is dangerous even for a fearless character. Certain daemons can dish out IP, CP and characteristic damage directly (as well as warp shock). Being fearless and walking the path of the Radical is no protection from the corruption to follow.

Friend of the Dork is correct in that by relating most disturbing events to a generic fear test a fearless character is immune to the largest source of IPs but it doesn't quite stop the IP track dead.

Well I guess you took my point at least.

As for the nonstandard sources.. yes there are few if any rules on it. So no, you're not completely immune, but for all practical purposes in a typical campaign with official modules... you are. There are a very few instances you may take IP and CPs, and of course Psykers will be a danger (and can also summon a deamon that wipes out the party, but hey!), but all in all the traits that boosts fear tests, reduces IP and CPs will be much less attractive.

But on a balance argument... if Fearless "only" allowed you to ignore the almost debilitating results on the Shock table, do you still think it's worth it? I'm not quite sure on the cost, but 200 or 300 xp doesn't seem too bad.

But on a balance argument... if Fearless "only" allowed you to ignore the almost debilitating results on the Shock table, do you still think it's worth it? I'm not quite sure on the cost, but 200 or 300 xp doesn't seem too bad.

It's not only 200 or 300 xp - for most classes that get it, it's among the "capstone" abilities. The point where others get Unnatural Intelligence or psy rating (adept), Into The Jaws Of Hell (several command-oriented trees), Litany of Hatred (also command-oriented), the Rite Of Pure Thought and others.

Further, Fearless is used by two careers that traditionally won't have the highest WP stats - guardsmen and assassins. Cutting them a check when it comes to IP and CP sounds more than reasonable to me.

Cifer said:

Or... by taking a certain background package, of course...

Yes I know it comes late, but frankly alot of classes have unimpressive last rank abilities already. You didn't quite answer the question though . would you still take it as Guardsman, Assassin, or as an elite advance?

Yes I know it comes late, but frankly alot of classes have unimpressive last rank abilities already. You didn't quite answer the question though . would you still take it as Guardsman, Assassin, or as an elite advance?

As a guardsman or assassin? Of course. With those classes, I'll take everything I can get against willpower-based stuff. However, I'd also take Resistance (Fear) - does that make it as good as Fearless?

Cifer said:

Well Resistance: Fear is useless if you can take Fearless. I have a feeling even the Psyker would want Fearless if he could, despite close to 50 WP and other talents.

Friend of the Dork said:

Bear in mind that not all GMs award XP at the same rate or that all campaigns go beyond rank 7. In my case, after six months of weekly sessions (with some sessions not happening due to holidays and finals and such), my group was at best finishing up rank 4 at campaign's end. Under such circumstances, waiting for Fearless to become available would have been an exercise in futility, and I, at least, certainly would take Resistance: Fear if it were available as an elite advance.

Never forget the time factor or how much can happen in one combat turn, never mind an entire game session. Taking that "lesser" advance may well be the only thing that allows you to survive to see the higher ranks.

-Kirov

remember everyone can get fearless... IH page 148 "The Tears of the Dragon"

Everyone who can get access to a pricey and rather rare AdMech ritual that has about even chances of giving you Fearless and slapping a few IPs on you, you mean.

So, any clarification on the inability to disengage?

I've always read it as meaning that the player is unable to make the character exit the fight in such a way so that they are no longer participating in the encounter, but some posts here indicate that it may mean the actual disengage action (meaning that you can't back out of melee combat, very bad for ranged combatants, or melee styles that rely on backing off). I can see it either way, but the talent doesn't seem to imply that the character becomes "stupidly" fearless, just fearless to a degree that they are unable to act in a way due to fear.

Thoughts?

I can see it either way, but the talent doesn't seem to imply that the character becomes "stupidly" fearless, just fearless to a degree that they are unable to act in a way due to fear.

The Radical's Handbook has an interesting addendum for non-combat effects of certain talents - with Fearless, you get a +10 bonus on certain other tasks like demolitions and hacking, but you need to make the WP test to cease tampering.

So yes, people with Fearless do seem to have a rather biased opinion of their own abilities...