Whatever... oh and *lol* at your suggestion to spend a fate point every round to reduce a 60% chance to not leave combat via Acrobatics/Assassin Strike to a mere 36%... I'm outta here. Have fun.
Fearless - what does it actually do?
well lets not get a flame war on the go. honour is not being questioned just interpretations.
I do agree that the Mack Martin really wasn't specific in his post in anything relating to warp shock.
but at the end of the day its the GMs interpretation that counts.
Personally in our game the gm allows me to simply say no effect when he calls a fear+number, keeps things simple
in return I play my character without any fear. quite to the word and only when I've put myself into that corner
Do I get to roll to see if my common sense previals, and to be honest I have quite alot of fun doing this,
mostly I dont even bother with the common sense roll. axe to face.
The talent really does affect the foundation roleplay of a character so personally I'm a fan even though my
Unshakeable faith and resistance fear talents are now rendered redundant.
still I see both sides of the argument and its worth getting further clarification specifically on how warpshock may effect
a fearless character, just to clear any possible vagueness, I also suggest they include that in the next version of the errata.
my simple rules interpretation, since you cant suffer any insanity points from fear because of fearless you cant
suffer any corruption points because warp shock only applies if you take any insanity points.
One more for you...
Why does Soul of Stone contain Armour of Contempt, Fearless, Insanely Faithful, Jaded, Resistance (Fear), and Unshakable Faith then? Because Armour of Contempt, Resistance (Fear), and Unshakable Faith would be pointless if Fearless does as you suggest. If you do indeed take Warp Shock as was answered, then you would need Armour of Contempt to reduce the CP you might take as well as the Resistance Fear and Unshakable Faith to reduce your chances of failing the roll and taking those CP. Otherwise, Soul of Stone is a mostly redundant Paragon Talent.
Own goal. The description of Soul of Stone does not even include a reroll on Fear tests (as one would normally get with Unshakeable Faith). Thus we can assume you don't roll Fear tests anymore with this Paragon talent for it grants immunity to Fear. Whereas you claim that one would still have to roll Fear tests despite discarding the result except for Warp Shock.
The line where it replaces other talents is exactly that, if someone has those talents then they can replace them with this Paragon Talent. Yes of course it would cover redundant talents too (just like Storm of Blows eliminates Swift Attack though requiring Lightning Attack
) The whole idea behind Mastered Skills and Paragon Talents was reducing space. But of course one would expect it to at least cover those talents (in addition, Soul of Stone removes the drawback of Fearless and increases the CP reduction).
@Redeucer
Because Armour of Contempt, Resistance (Fear), and Unshakable Faith would be pointless if Fearless does as you suggest.
Apart from what Chester already noted, Armour of Contempt would still be useful because there are Corruption sources other than Warp Shock.
Chester said:
Own goal. The description of Soul of Stone does not even include a reroll on Fear tests (as one would normally get with Unshakeable Faith). Thus we can assume you don't roll Fear tests anymore with this Paragon talent for it grants immunity to Fear. Whereas you claim that one would still have to roll Fear tests despite discarding the result except for Warp Shock.
The line where it replaces other talents is exactly that, if someone has those talents then they can replace them with this Paragon Talent. Yes of course it would cover redundant talents too (just like Storm of Blows eliminates Swift Attack though requiring Lightning Attack
) The whole idea behind Mastered Skills and Paragon Talents was reducing space. But of course one would expect it to at least cover those talents (in addition, Soul of Stone removes the drawback of Fearless and increases the CP reduction).
Actually, it has the exact same text as Fearless. It does not say you do not roll. It says "is immune to the effects of fear, pinning..." Nowhere in the text does it say you do not roll. You just ignore the effects. Just like Fearless.
Yeah, but it doesn't say you get a +10 bonus. Or that you get to reroll. So if these effects aren't made redundant by Soul of Stone, they get dropped from the talent - which would be kind of stupid, considering a Paragon talent should contain everything the normal talents have and then some.
Redeucer said:
Bilateralrope said:
Cifer said:
Funny. This makes it the third customer response in a row I don't agree with, out of pretty much all responses on this forum. And I still wonder how one can determine which effects are eliminated by Fearless and which aren't - a character receives insanity if he rolls a certain number on the shock table and corruption if he receives any insanity. Why is one an "effect of fear" while another one isn't?
So yes, we'll probably have to agree to disagree at this point, Redeucer.
Forth for me*, though this is the first one that doesn't answer the question that was asked. I wonder if he would have got a different answer if he question simply said "Does a fearless character still gain corruption points through warp shock?"
*Assuming that the posters were telling the truth about the response.
Your questioning my honor is offensive to me. I will be disregarding your posts. I asked a specific question and got a specific response. If you chose to disregard a game designers response, feel free, but there is no reason to question my honesty. I have done nothing to give you the impression that I would lie. In fact I have gone out of my way to be honest that I did not know for sure until I received a response from FFG.
If my post came across as calling you a liar then I am sorry, that was not my intent. I have spent too much time on forums where people will lie about what other people have said in order to prove their point.
Redeucer said:
Actually, it has the exact same text as Fearless. It does not say you do not roll. It says "is immune to the effects of fear, pinning..." Nowhere in the text does it say you do not roll. You just ignore the effects. Just like Fearless.
So the question comes down to "is warp shock an effect of fear or not ?"
I say it is because warp shock only happens when you fail a fear test.
Chester said:
I'm with everybody else here. If you are immune to Fear and Pinning you don't roll any test. Thus you can't fail one and suffer Warp Shock again once you've reached the rank to gain Fearless which is top tier. It rewards the character for getting this far - and the drawback is considerable (I'm pondering not to get it because more often than not it will spoil my favorite tactic of Acrobatic disengage+point blank shotgun and Assassin Strike to foil Lightning Attack). Or is Armor of Contempt too powerful because a Psyker will never again get the 1cp per phenomena? Is Favored by the Warp?
Next time word your question to CustServ better or better yet provide a link to this thread so that they actually know the context (and both sides' arguments!) instead of guessing what exactly it is you want to know. Because the answer provided isn't an answer and opens a whole can of new horrors like Cifer mentioned. It isn't supporting your case at all.
I hadn't thought about disengage or assassin strike interacting with fearless. Disengage could go either way, but I don't see it being a problem with Assassin Strike because you aren't using it to flee the combat. Just because you aren't afraid of the foe doesn't mean you have to fight stupidly.
Chester said:
Whatever... oh and *lol* at your suggestion to spend a fate point every round to reduce a 60% chance to not leave combat via Acrobatics/Assassin Strike to a mere 36%... I'm outta here. Have fun.
Chester said:
Whatever... oh and *lol* at your suggestion to spend a fate point every round to reduce a 60% chance to not leave combat via Acrobatics/Assassin Strike to a mere 36%... I'm outta here. Have fun.
You read my post wrong. At a willpower of 40, you have a 60% chance to fail the WP test. To fail to flee after spending a fate point, you would have to fail the test twice: 0.6*0.6 = 0.36, so you have a 36% chance to fail both rolls.
Which means the fate point takes a 40% chance of success and turns it into a 60% chance.
Bilateralrope said:
So the question comes down to "is warp shock an effect of fear or not ?"
I say it is because warp shock only happens when you fail a fear test.
A character only suffers from warp shock if they suffer IP from failing the fear test, so if there is no IP effect from failing the fear test there can be no warp shock effect from failing the fear test.
Khouri said:
Bilateralrope said:
So the question comes down to "is warp shock an effect of fear or not ?"
I say it is because warp shock only happens when you fail a fear test.
A character only suffers from warp shock if they suffer IP from failing the fear test, so if there is no IP effect from failing the fear test there can be no warp shock effect from failing the fear test.
I had missed that part, so I was thinking that CP was handed out on any failed fear test. But that just makes it harder to argue that warp shock gets through fearless.
Bilateralrope said:
If my post came across as calling you a liar then I am sorry, that was not my intent. I have spent too much time on forums where people will lie about what other people have said in order to prove their point.
Bilateralrope,
Thank you. And my apologies for getting bent out of shape.
And I'll go back to what I keep saying. If you don't like the ruling, feel free to disregard it or ask your own question. Just don't try to convince others of your viepoint when we have an official answer.
If you don't like the ruling, feel free to disregard it or ask your own question.
Funnily enough, I've done just that, since I also assumed Mack didn't quite get what you were aiming at. Lo and behold:
(Sadly, I don't have the original question anymore. However, I mainly asked about what part of the fear rules - the shock table, the insanity points and/or the corruption - would be negated or altered by the fear-affecting talents)
Hi Andreas,
I just wanted to take a moment to try clarifying some of the fear reducing effects.
In general the answer is "yes, they work on all portions of the applicable fear effect." This is for simplicities sake and to not deny players the benefits of talents they have payed for. As with everything it is up to the GM's discretion how this is applied in each case. It is possible that someone's unshakable faith prevented their corruption or that their resistance to fear made it more difficult for the warp to get ahold of their corporeal body.
Upon re-reading the section, however, I do not see where the question arrises from. Table 8-4 on page 232 has no effects that cause corruption. All the listed talents would function with the fear rules as intended. In situations where a player might be corrupted and make a fear test then these abilities would only effect the portion of the effect that causes fear.
Perhaps I'm only seeing part of the question, however, since it sounds like there is a bit of discussion about all this. If my answer doesn't quite fit the question that might be why. Perhaps if you clarified the question with an example and page references.
Mack Martin
Associate RPG Producer
[email protected]
651.639.1905
The point of interest would be Warp Shock. According to page 238 of the core rules, when one suffers Insanity points from Fear Tests involving Warp entities, one also suffers a few points of Corruption. Now my reasoning would be that for example with Fearless, since one never gains Insanity points due to never suffering any of the results on the shock table, one also can't ever suffer from Corruption due to Warp Shock. Am I correct in this?
Regards,
Andreas
The corruption is applied after any insanity points are applied. It clearly states, "If a character suffers Insanity Points resulting from a failed Fear Test involving entities of the warp...". The additional "warp shock" is the corruption suffered by a character when they lose their mental hold on reality in relation to the warp (which is decidedly un-real). If a character manages to not suffer Insanity from an encounter with an entity from the warp he has also staved off corruption.
This represents the type of insanity the character suffers. Seeing horrific sights is one thing, attempting to understand the un-knowable warp not only drives you crazy but physically corrupts you as well.
So yes, you are correct, if you are fearless you are indeed immune to the corruption from failed fear tests and warp shock. You are not, however immune to other types of corruption, which powerful warp entities will commonly cause.
Mack Martin
Associate RPG Producer
[email protected]
651.639.1905
Thank you for that, Cifer. I've been wondering about this for awhile now, as well. I didn't chime in, since others had already stated the various interpretations that seem to make the most sense. But I think this now resolves how Fearless (as well as other Fear-related talents) should be adjuticated, at least by RAW. Kudos.
Well hells, bells! Why didn't he say that when I asked? I hate it when people give me incorrect information. Especially when they are supposed to know the answer. This just really irks the detail oriented part of me.
Fearless is now the be all and end all of all Talents. If you can't get it, you should pester your GM until you can. Bleh....
Seriously though, thanks, Cifer.
Well hells, bells! Why didn't he say that when I asked? I hate it when people give me incorrect information. Especially when they are supposed to know the answer. This just really irks the detail oriented part of me.
He probably didn't recall the Warp Shock rule and thought you asked for some reason whether in a situation where you both had to make a Fear check and get corruption points Fearless would negate both. But yeah, not exactly rules lawyer standard.
Fearless is now the be all and end all of all Talents. If you can't get it, you should pester your GM until you can. Bleh....
It's not that good. Firstly, there's that pesky "no withdrawal" rule. Secondly, you don't need it if another acolyte in your group has a high chance of making fear checks and Into The Jaws Of Hell. And thirdly, it can be partially emulated with Nerves Of Steel and Unshakeable Faith. But yes, it is pretty powerful - as it should be, considering it's usually available for rank 7 and onwards. Wheras Pure Faith's Corruption stopper is more of a little gimmick that makes sure you have a way of not getting too corrupted to use the Faith talents if you hold back a Fate Point for that purpose before Unshakeable Faith and Fearless become available.
Seriously though, thanks, Cifer.
You're welcome!
And he won't admit he steered me wrong. I asked why the contradiction and received the following:
These aren't contradictory actually, Warp Shock is part of fear.
Whatever... I'm not even going to start on the "
Warp Shock is part of fear
" statement. Guess I'll just write it off to doesn't know his own game. Double bleh...
Bring back, Ross!
Redeucer said:
And he won't admit he steered me wrong. I asked why the contradiction and received the following:
These aren't contradictory actually, Warp Shock is part of fear.
Whatever... I'm not even going to start on the "
Warp Shock is part of fear
" statement. Guess I'll just write it off to doesn't know his own game. Double bleh...
Bring back, Ross!
Warp Shock is a function of Shock, which only occurs as a result of a failed fear test (the same rules are used in Rogue Trader: Warp Shock only happens if a character gains Insanity Points as a result of a failed Fear Test caused by a warp entity). That isn't inaccurate. It's also not technically a contradiction - a Fearless character is still technically subject to Warp Shock, but given that Warp Shock grants you a number of corruption points equal to the number of insanity point you've just gained from a failed warp-related Fear Test, and a fearless character can't fail a fear test, it results in the character gaining no corruption points because no insanity points have been gained.
I have to agree with N0-1 in this case, Mack wasn't actually incorrect in that statement.
Wasn't going to go here, but...
If Warp shock is part of Fear, then why isn't it written up in the Fear rules? Why isn't it with the Fear description? Why don't you have to worry about it every time you make a Fear test?
Warp Shock is a special aspect associated with warp entities. It only comes into play when facing them, not all the time. Warp Shock is the result of the taint of the Warp/Chaos, not fear. It's the result of being faced with and partially comprehending non-Euclidean geometry. It's the result of hearing thousands of whispering voices in the miasma around a daemon and actually make sense of some of what is being said. It is the Warp itself seeping into your soul because of it's very presence near you. I agree the game uses the Fear mechanics for determining Warp Shock, but by the rules it also is a separate effect.
I feel your pain, Redeucer. While Mack's answer to you may not have been 'technically' incorrect, it was at the least ... misleading.
And I agree that Fear and Warp Shock should probably be two separate effects, with separate means of resistance. Of course, it's easy enough to house-rule it, I suppose.
Redeucer said:
Wasn't going to go here, but...
If Warp shock is part of Fear, then why isn't it written up in the Fear rules?
The same reason Insanity Points aren't written up in the Fear rules. Fear may often cause Insanity Points, but it does not always do so, and Insanity Points may be gained without suffering from Shock or otherwise failing a Fear Test. Similarly, Fear is not always a result of the influence of the Warp, so consequently Warp Shock is not an integral part of the Fear rules, but rather a specific link between the Fear and Corruption rules.
Redeucer said:
Why isn't it with the Fear description?
Because it's a source of Corruption Points, and thus dealt with in the Corruption Points section.
Redeucer said:
Why don't you have to worry about it every time you make a Fear test?
Because only a fraction of Fear Tests cause Warp Shock.
Redeucer said:
Warp Shock is a special aspect associated with warp entities. It only comes into play when facing them, not all the time. Warp Shock is the result of the taint of the Warp/Chaos, not fear. It's the result of being faced with and partially comprehending non-Euclidean geometry. It's the result of hearing thousands of whispering voices in the miasma around a daemon and actually make sense of some of what is being said. It is the Warp itself seeping into your soul because of it's very presence near you. I agree the game uses the Fear mechanics for determining Warp Shock, but by the rules it also is a separate effect.
No, what you're describing is simply Corruption. Warp Shock is one single, specific method of accumulating Corruption, but is hardly the only way.
A big part of this issue comes from people attributing more significance to Warp Shock than it actually has. Warp Shock is simply and entirely a term for what happens if a character suffers Shock (the collective term for the results on the table rolled on by characters who have failed a Fear Test) caused by a creature or phenomena from the Warp. That's all. That's all it's ever been.
Redeucer said:
Warp Shock is a special aspect associated with warp entities. It only comes into play when facing them, not all the time. Warp Shock is the result of the taint of the Warp/Chaos, not fear . It's the result of being faced with and partially comprehending non-Euclidean geometry. It's the result of hearing thousands of whispering voices in the miasma around a daemon and actually make sense of some of what is being said. It is the Warp itself seeping into your soul because of it's very presence near you. I agree the game uses the Fear mechanics for determining Warp Shock, but by the rules it also is a separate effect.
(Emphasis mine)
From a metagaming perspective I tend to agree with you. However from as rules mechanic your third sentence is incorrect.
Warp Shock
If a character suffers Insanity Points resulting from a failed Fear Test involving entities from the warp, ... DH - p. 238
As such, warp shock in indeed a direct result of fear, a singularly specialized form of fear. It is not a separate effect, reather it is an additional effect in certain situations.
Looking at this from a different perspective, if a character has 20 insantity ponits thereby making him immune to fear (1) effects, are you also saying he is not immune to warp shock? It would seem in this case insanity would be the perfect reason to grant immunity. One could say that by definition a character with fearless is indeed insane.