A friend and I started playing JITD a couple months ago...we just completed Quest 3....and I've been keeping track of questions as we go.

1.) What is the movement rule for water (single space) and large monsters? Can a bane spider cross water or is water simply not passable by any character?

2.) The general rules concerning movement indicate, both graphically and verbally, that diagonal movement around a corner is a legal movement. This seems odd to me for two reasons. a) There's typically a wall there graphically b) specifically in Quest 3 - we are introduced to the Naga. In the East and West hallways in area two, Naga fills the 2x2 corner and would appear to block the path.....forcing the hero to ring the bell and answer the riddle. However, with the diagonal movement allowed around a corner, the hero is able to easily slip past the Naga. Is this what is intended?

3.) Many of the OL cards indicate they are to be played "at the beginning of your turn".....Doom for example. What exactly does "beginning of your turn" mean? Does the OL need to play that prior to drawing cards and taking his threat tokens or can the OL draw his cards, take his threat tokens, exchange additional cards for threat tokens and then play the card? When does "beginning of turn" end?

4.) One of the randomly drawn special abilities cards for the hero grants him/her the ability to make a bonus mele' attack after defeating a monster in mele'. So could a hero win a mele attack, use the bonus and make and win another mele attack, get another bonus and make and win that mele attack.......maybe even spend surge for movement to get into another mele after winning a mele attack, make another bonus mele attack...and on and on? Simply, is that skill meant to be THAT powerful or is it meant to be a single bonus mele? I ask because in one of our quests, a hero cleared a room of about 6 monsters in one attack using the bonus over and over again. That seems excessive.....seems like it should be a one time bonus per turn (or twice if using the attack order).

5.) In the description for the "Master Naga" in the final area in Quest 3 it says that until all 3 bells are rung he "cannot be attacked by any 'normal' attack". What is meant by 'normal' attack? Can he simply not be attacked or is magic not considered a 'normal' attack? If he simply cannot be attacked is the OL supposed to allow the hero to attack and simply say "no damage was done" and let the hero continue to attack it he figures it out? Or should the OL tell the hero players that the Master Naga cannot currently be attacked? The rules concerning the Master Naga seem vague here and open for interpretation.

6.) The familiars Mata and Cata......sorry if they are mispelled.....are they allowed to pick up gold and potions but not treasures?

Thanks in advance for any and all responses. We are really enjoying the game....just struggling with some of the rules....so there may be more questions to come.

Scullysguy said:

1. Water spaces block movement. There is no exception for large monsters. If a spaces blocks movement then you may not enter it.

2. The diagonal movement rules are not odd at all, just your thinking is not flexible enough. Each space is quite a large area (2m square +). Figures do not only move through the centres of spaces, they also move through the edges and corners. Consider the space set
AB
CD
A figure moving diagonally from C to B probably passes partially through both A and D in reality, but it is only passing through the edges of A and D and is thus not 'impeded' by anything in A or D. In tha case of an actual corner so that D is replaced instead by two walls along C's right and Bs bottom, a figure moving from C to B is actually slipping through the corner of A as it travels, just not enough to be represented by moving into A. An obstacle (or other figure) in A does not necessarily occupy the entire 2+m by 2+m area of A, it merely blocks the middle area of the space enough so that using that space isn't possible without being affected.
This whole construct is an artifact of boardgame restrictions but actually allows a variety of subtle effects to create different situations.
I can't comment on the quest specifics as the quest guide is not available as a pdf. Naga do have Grapple, but IIRC those Naga are initially stone statues not monsters. IIRC you can;t actually win the quest without waking up the Naga's anyway.

3. 'Start of Turn' is actually a complex thing that isn't well defined. By reasoning out from various effects and cards we can work out that 'start of turn' generally means everything before 'Declaring an Action' for heroes and 'Activating the first Monster' for OLs, although some things must still be performed in a certain order (eg step 1 before step 2 and OL discard down to hand size before playing any cards etc) and effects (usually from tokens) must be resolved before anything else (FAQ pg6).

4. I guess you are referring to Cleaving (bookmark that link right now, or the Home section of that webpage at least!)
Each time you kill an enemy with a Melee attack, you may spend 1 fatigue to immediately make 1 additional attack with the same weapon. You may do this once each time you kill an enemy with a Melee attack.
In this case it is a re-useable bonus - you just have to pay the cost and the bonus attack must be immediate (ie, no moving to a new location before making the bonus attack). Some other attacks are not reusable (eg Quick Casting has an exhaust cost in addition to the 2 fatigue, so can only be used once before it needs refreshing) but also may not require immediate use (Quick Casting again, though it does require the same weapon be used).

5. Melee, Ranged and Magic are all 'normal attacks'. In this case the Master Naga simply cannot be attacked at all until the bells is rung. Basically, attacks have no effect. The monster is a magical statue, made of stone/crystal and attacks simply don't do anything. The quest Guide should tell you what text to read out to players. In addition, DJitD pg16 says "When the heroes encounter a named monster, the overlord player must explain any different or special stats the monster possesses. The overlord player is not required to reveal any special abilities the monster may have ." At least, not until they take effect. Basically, you just say "your attack has no effect" when a hero attacks it. It is up to them to think about the clues they are given in the flavour text and whether they keep attacking or not is not your problem.

6. Mata and Kata (DJitD pg14)
The familiars can each be given or pick up and carry one item (including potions) .
Gold piles and chests are not items so cannot be carried by Mata and Kata. Items have a card, and include Shop items, copper, silver and gold treasure items and relics.
Note that Mata and Kata have different rules for the SoB Advanced Campaign which do allow them to work together to carry (unopened) chests and coin piles IIRC.

If you haven't got it already, get the FAQ . Then read it 3 times. Read it three more times and take notes. Read it again before you next play.
All the rules and FAQ pdfs also make it easier to search stuff in the rules because you can do word searches in pdf. And that DescentintheDark.com site is very, very useful.

Hmm, ninja'd by Corbon, but I already wrote this up, so I'll post it. I found a FAQ for #3 that Corbon apparently missed/forgot, but otherwise I think our answers are the same.

1) Water works like rubble, except that it doesn't block line of sight. You can't move through either of them unless you have the Fly ability or the Acrobat skill, regardless of figure size.

2) Diagonal movement past a corner is allowed. Even diagonal movement between two corners. The rules and examples are fairly clear about that. As for the stone nagas in quest 3, I believe it is entirely intentional that you can move past them...after all, you need to give the heroes every opportunity to go for the treasure first...

3) The overlord's "beginning of turn" ends when he activates his first monster. From the FAQ, p. 6-7:

" Q: When does the overlord play power cards? The Well of Darkness rules summary on page 28 and the core rule book seem to disagree.
A: The rules summary in the Well of Darkness rule book is in error; refer to the main rule book instead. The overlord may play a power card at the beginning of his turn. Remember that when a player has multiple effects that occur at the beginning of his turn (such as spawning and playing a power card, for example), he may resolve them in any order. Thus, an overlord may draw cards, discard down to his maximum hand size, and then play a power card, spawn card, and/or any other cards that are played “at the beginning of turn” in any order. He must resolve all these effects before proceeding with activating monsters. "

4) The Cleaving skill can be used after any melee attack that kills a monster, including a bonus attack granted by the Cleaving skill (if it were intended to be used only once per turn, it would say "exhaust" somewhere). However, note that it costs 1 fatigue each time you activate the skill. Additionally, since it says "immediately" after the kill, you cannot do anything else (such as moving) before taking the bonus attack; you must do it right away, from your current position.

So yes, it's possible for a single attack plus Cleaving to kill six different monsters...if you spend 5 fatigue, and all of them are within melee range of a single square. (Or you can use a Battle action to do a total of 2 normal attacks and 4 cleaving attacks, in which case you can move before the second normal attack.)

It is one of the better skills, though.

5) I don't have the quest book in front of me, but my recollection was that there was no way to harm the Naga before ringing the bells. Magic attacks are every bit as "normal" as melee or ranged attacks; it's just one of the attack types. Depending on the wording, maybe you could harm it with the Aura ability or something similar.

The information you need to reveal about named monsters is described on page 16: "When the heroes encounter a named monster, the overlord player must explain any different or special stats the monster possesses. The overlord player is not required to reveal any special abilities the monster may have." So you have to reveal things like extra wounds or increased speed, but not abilities like Knockback .

That means you don't need to reveal the boss's immunity immediately when the heroes enter the room. When a hero attacks, it's not entirely clear whether you should say "the boss takes no damage" or "the boss is immune to attacks," though I suspect most heroes could figure things out from the former, anyway. I would tend to err on the side of giving more information, since the quests are supposed to work even if the heroes have played them before.

Similarly, you don't need to reveal that the boss doesn't have the Grapple ability until it's adjacent to a hero.

6) Going by the original rules, Mata and Kata can only pick up items: shop cards, treasure cards , and potions. They're mostly for trading cards between heroes, though they can also fetch potions on the ground. They can't pick up coin piles, rune keys, or treasure chests .

There are modified rules for the familiars in the Sea of Blood expansion (p.44) that allow them to work together to carry a single coin pile, rune key, or treasure chest. Officially, that only applies to the Sea of Blood extended campaign, but Mata and Kata is generally considered a weak skill, and I don't think it'll hurt anything if you wanted to import the rule.

Antistone said:

I don't think this FAQ answer over-rides the basic sequencing in Steps one and two though. Even though a player can supposedly resolve 'start of turn effects' in 'any order' I think you still have to follow the basic rules where they are clear - in effect this answer is just giving direction for those things not explicitly sequenced already.
For example:
The overlord player collects one threat token for every hero, and then draws two cards from the top of the overlord deck. The overlord player may then discard one or more cards from his hand to collect extra threat tokens.
The overlord player must discard down to eight cards or less after* drawing his two cards for the turn. He may choose to discard additional cards and always collects threat tokens for each card he discards.
I believe that the OL should a) collect threat before drawing cards, and b) draw cards before discarding down to hand size, and c) discard down to hand size before playing any cards*. And because all of these things are in step 1, I believe they must be completed before spawning as that is step 2.
OTOH, playing a power card isnt properly defined and can fit in 'in any order' as long as it is after discarding down to hand size (ie near the end of step 1, or start of step 2) and before activating the first monster (ie at the end of step2).
Similarly, a hero must refresh cards before Equipping as Refresh is Step 1 and Equipping is Step 2.

* The discard rule must be effectively 'immediately' after or there is no point in having it here rather than at the end of the OL's turn. If the rule is not affected (acted upon) at this point the the OL can discard down to maximum hand size at the end of his turn and he has fulfilled the 'after' requirement but made a mockery of the term 'maximum hand size' by playing the entire turn with a larger hand.

I also believe that due to the other Pg6 FAQ answer
Q: What is the proper timing of events that occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn”?
A: When multiple events may occur “at the beginning of a player’s turn,” such as a hero affected by multiple different status effects like Burn and Bleed, that player may decide in which order to resolve them. The player must resolve all “start of turn” effects before proceeding with the rest of his turn.
effects (usually from tokens) must be resolved first , before all other 'start of turn' processes. So for example, a hero with an exhausted Skull Shield and a bleed token could not refresh the Skull Shield first and then exhaust it to cancel the 2 wounds from the bleed token.

Thus the turn sequence is really:
OL: 1. Draw threat, 2. draw cards, 3. discard down to hand size, 4. do other start of turn stuff including spawning and power cards in any order, 5. activate first monster (each individual monster starting by resolving any effects on it before acting)
Hero: 1. Resolve effects, 2. from now until the Action is declared play any 'start of turn' feats, 3. Refresh, 4. Equip, 4a.Use "After equipping at start of turn" items from now on, 5. Declare Action...

The wording on the FAQ is slightly confusing, but if you read it carefully, it does actually say that the overlord must collect threat and draw cards first, and then can play any "start of turn" cards in any order before activating monsters. The "and then" is important.

Also, I don't believe that discarding is a step; I believe that part of drawing cards, at any time, for any reason, is that you must instantly discard if that puts you over your hand limit. "The overlord player can never have more than eight overlord cards in his hand." Drawing at the start of your turn is normally the only time the overlord draws cards, though.

2) After noticing a few levels (in vanilla) that seemed off because of strange diagonal movements we made a house rule:
AB
CD

Moving from C to B, if D is a wall = all is well.
Moving from C to B, if D is a wall and A is an enemy = can't move. Also if D is not a wall, but a pit. The hero must jump the pit.
Moving from C to B, if D and A is a wall = can't move. It just seemed weird to be able to fit through that tiny crack. You can see through the crack though for line of sight.
Moving from C to B, if D is a wall and A is a friendly = all is well. From the "can move through friendly figures" rule.
Moving from C to B, if D and A is an enemy = can't move. Due to the "can't move through enemy figures"

Hope that's as clear as mud.

I do like the earlier reasoning about how creatures and walls do not take up the whole square, but we like to think that wall is almost entirely filling the square. And enemies don't really just stand around and watch you stroll past them to their leader.

Kikketer said:

No, they don't. They are busy doing stuff in their turn, but that's a UGIG system for you - simpler and easier to execute, but flawed. Generally I find that being simpler and easier to execute is much more valuable than the cost of the flaws.

The rule that you are changing (houseruling) is very clear and very explicit in the rules as demonstrated in the movement diagram on pg9. It is an artifact of using squares rather than hexes is some ways.
You are free to play it differently, but don't be surprised if the balance* changes. It is a small and subtle change, but rather important. Enjoy your game.

*In general it should favour the OL, quite strongly I think, since the heroes move a lot more and a lot further than most monsters and often need to get through to 'protected' things (chests and glyphs) before clearing away the chaff (monsters). Although the OL might have a little more difficulty getting 'past' the tanks to hit the soft heroes, he can often spawn behind or use long range attacks to do that anyway. They only way it will really help the OL is if the heroes have a real 'grind the way through' mentality, and the OL is already winning in that case.

Antistone said:

As I recall the OL is allowed to discard cards whenever he wants, so it certainly isn't a step in the OL turn sequence. It's just something that happens whenever (and immediately when the OL draws card #9.) That said, I usually draw all cards required before I start discarding. That's probably not strictly legal, but it's much faster that choosing one card to chuck after each pull if I'm drawing more than one.

"The overlord player collects one threat token for every hero, and then draws two cards from the top of the overlord deck. The overlord player may then discard one or more cards from his hand to collect extra threat tokens. The overlord player must discard down to eight cards or less after drawing his two cards for the turn ."

It's definitely legal to draw both cards first.