TIDE OF IRON and MEMOIR , I have both and must admit haven't found the time yet to play either.

The days have past with me not finding the time to start playing, allthough I did spend the little time I found getting familiar with everything in the boxes and trying to decide wich game to master first.

I've decided on MEMOIR as I've been convinced this is easier to learn, but that it's beside the point.

Having had a close look at both games and realising TOI is far more complicated, I still can't help wonder if they basically are not very simular indeed.

The gameboard, ( I must say I do like how TOI allows you to have a totaly different gameboard every time) the terrain tiles, the special tokens, the plastic figures (I must say I really like how MEMOIR has more types of tanks - I think if Tide went for many different types of tank (preferable detailed and recogniseable as such) we could end up with some great, tank only scenarioes)

In my eyes it makes both games look very simular. With TOI users now requestion expansions wich MEMOIR allready has, I'm starting to wonder if the games may not start to grow towards eachother, seeming ever more simular and in the end, one day, finally merging into one game.

MEMOIR will become ever more complicated, while TOI will do ever more theatres of war wich MEMOIR allready has explored.

It almost seems a waste of manpower to have two great teams of designers working on two basically very simular games. Next TOI will, I assume try building an eastern front expansion, while M44 has allready explored that option and has all lthe rules in place. It's a bit like re-inventing the wheel if you know what I mean.

So I'm starting to wonder will these games at one point seem so simular there seems no longer a point in having two different ones and they'll simply merge into one. Or wil this turn into a competition, where one game will finally become the favourit of gamers and the other will slowly disappear.

Or are, in your expert oppinion, both games spite appearances so very different, they can easily exist together and be interesting enough to want people to buy expansions to both. After all both games are targetting the same market and the same type of player. So if these games are too simular, people at one point will have to decide to spend their hard earned cash on one or the other.

I would be interested to read your oppinions on this.

Good question Sagitar and one that quite a few people ask. Here is an article I wrote on my website that might address the issue....

i have both too, and I have to say that, whilst Memoir is a 'quick and dirty' experience, TOI is much more involved. Don't get me wrong - I am a big fan of Memoir - but TOI, IMHO, offers more. Yes, it takes longer to set up, and longer to play; but even when playing Memoir I now use TOI tanks and TOI squads ( 3 figures to a base if using Resistance). This is because I feel a) TOI figures are better; and b) it's easier to move a squad base than all 4 figures. I just use the Memoir board and card deck.

I don't know where you come up with the idea that there are more armour types in Memoir, unless it's because you're counting Russian and Pacific fronts. TOI's armour, for the Western Front at least, is far more comprehensive, and far more accurate. Though far from perfect ( 9 sets of jockey wheels on a Jagdpanzer rather than 8? ), I am much happier with FFGs designs than with those of DoW.

In my (very humble) opinion, you get a lot more for your money with TOI. Yes, the expansions are more expensive, but ( and again, I still enjoy them) Memoir's feel like a rip-off by comparison. I own both and have all expansions bar the Air Pack for Memoir. Given the whole lot to do over, I'd probably buy the Memoir Terrain pack plus the Overlord pack for the card decks, and use TOI in a 3x3 board configuration with the left column of 3 representing the left flank, the centre 3 the centre and the right column the right flank. Job done. Memoir's tokens are just that - emblematic of the fighting units, but not simulations. TOI's armour, whilst not as statistically representative as those of other wargames such as Squad Leader, are much more comprehensive.

I know I am biased - anyone who expresses a preference is; but for me, TOI strikes a good balance between immediacy and statistical torpor. I do not want to consult analysis tables every time I fire a weapon. Neither do I feel that rolling a grenade is representative enough. Plus I have the Memopir components for when I want a light game.

I had both games at one time. And I think that you are correct in accessing the two games to be similiar.

M44 is basically BattleCry, in WWII. I think they call that game system the Command and Colors game system. Battle Cry is an ACW game, and is excellent. The game system is perfect for that time period. It is also a card driven system.

When I first got M44, my initial impression was that it was a high quality game to be sure, but it was just like playing BattleCry. I love playing BattleCry, but it's a Civil War game, and the system didn't sit right with me in a WWII setting. There was just too much variation left out in M44, IMHO. Too many different weapons, tactics, nations, geographic locations and most notably...too many vehicles. The M44 game system works great in the ACW setting, but as far as WWII, it seemed to me to just barely scratch the tip of the iceberg.

M44 is an entry level game and it's game system, for me worked better in the ACW role.

TOI is what I would call an entry level game as well, only you can take this game and run with it. The game system is just deep enough to allow it to take on just about any subject matter or theater from WWII that it wants to. It is not a card driven system, but it does share a lot of traits with M44. Most notably the units that are made up of 4 plastic figures (or less depending on unit type). Cards are involved in the game for variation, but are not the main game mechanic. TOI uses a system more like your more traditional wargame systems based on impulse movement, which is very similar to the Conflict of Heros game system. It also incorperates a lot of dice rolling and has unit stats (with special abilities) very similar to A&A Miniatures.

In short, TOI is a much better entry level game than M44 IMHO, in so much as it does a better job of representing the time period and subject much better. Both games are a lot of fun, but if I'm going to be playing a WWII game and I have my choice of the two, it's hands down TOI. If I want to play M44, I'll break out BattleCry and play it, which is where that particular game system is at it's best. I like good games and will keep games of a similar nature, but M44 just didn't give me the feel of what WWII ground combat was all about, and not that I'm an expert by any means. It's just that it felt like I was playing BattleCry with tanks instead of cavalry, and seeing the artillery on the tactical battlefield felt too civil war-ish...so if I'm going to play that system, it was going to be in the civil war setting.

I traded in my old M44 copy a while back, have gotten everything released for TOI, and have not had one regret. It's too bad Hasbro didn't support BattleCry, but if you can find a copy and like M44, you should check it out. It is, IMHO, where the M44 game system belongs.

TOI is a much better WWII game from my point of view.

Thank you all very much for your view on things.

I bought both games in one order wich is quite unusuall for me, to buy two games on the same subject, but I'd heard a lot of good things on both of them. I usually enjoy buying games on completely different subjects.

I must admit I went for M44 as I understood it would be very easy to learn and not to complicated, which would be great for introducing my kids to such a game. Truth be told I would have bought Battle Cry - ACW being more my kind of war, but as I didn't have that option I decided to go for the next best thing. But I've now been convinced I really should have another go at trying to buy Battle Cry. It's back on my wishlist.

On the other hand I bought ToI with myself in mind, I love games wich make you study the rules for some days before you really understand it all. Allthough I must admit the number of bits and pieces that came with ToI were somewhat overwhelming.

Sorry for my getting mixed up, ofcourse ToI has more different vehicles than M44, wich is one of the things I immedeatly loved about the game. In M44 they are all the same, and I wonder why they bothered to have different infantry units but didn't bother to make a difference between german and american tanks.

ToI's tanks are far mor fun. I wish they'd make even more different types of vehicles for use in an eastern front expansion. Can you imagine a huge epic tankbattle with all sorts of different vehicles and tanks wich you recognise when you see them . I can just imagine it, all sorts of support vehicles and every kind of tank available at that front, slugging it out on an epic scale battle field. Don't even bother with infantry, allthough you might want them added for russian summer scenarioes if only to get your armour out of the mud. Sorry about that side step, at times I have to much imagination.

I also love the way ToI allows you to create your own map. The M44 map gives me a feeling of being more constricted and not able to manouvre as I would like. The ToI map seems to allow for endless possibilities.

On the other hand I am somewhat worried about the pegged units. They may be more easy to handle, but on the other hand, they don't slide in really smoothly and I'm in fear of breaking them. Someone told me to not fiddle with them, as I was going to, but leave them be and in time they should slide in more easy. So fingers crossed.

Funny one of you should bring up A&A miniatures. Many years ago (somewhere last century) I bought the original boardgame and we loved it. My wife who hates aggressive war games, totaly went besirk with tanks and I think it is one of her favourite games. We never bothered with all the expansions they came up with later as we were convinced it was just more of the same and they were just milking the subect to death.

Just last week at an on-line shop I than discovered there is a A&A miniatures game. I must say it looks great, allthough I'm not sure if this still is a boardgame or has evolved into a table top game. Yes truth be told I was tempted to put it on my list but someone told me getting the miniatures is bit of a problem. Apparently you buy them in sets without actually knowing what you buy, wich doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Gets to expensive before you have all you want, so I'l probably don't bother. Especially now that one of you told me it's not really that good.

Yet again thank you for your comments, I allways enjoy to see what other more experienced players think.

I'll now go and try and find me that copy of Battle cry which has my name on it.

Do the terrain tokens (railroad pieces, etc) from the Memoir '44 terrain pack fit on the hexes for TOI?

The comic shop I frequent just put them on 40% off, and I'm gettin gmy dad TOI for X-mas. The terrain pack would be a cool after-Xmas purchase.

As an aside, I am gettin into BattleLore, and they had the Goblin Skirmishers, Marauders and Dwarven Battalion packs for 40% off, and I can't buy them because according to my family and GF, "it's too near X-mas".

( almost bought a couple to keep secret 'till after the holidays.......... )

Aegis said:

They fit. The graphic style is a bit different, but not too much. Especially the railroad is useful.

Oh yes, the hexes are pretty much exactly the same size. You can use 'em with abandon. As stated previously, they do have a different 'look', and the grass and sand colours are lighter but they work well as representations, and there are many terrain types which, until now at least, have not been represented in ToI. Rail links and airfields are useful additions and, until Normandy's release, I was using the "beach with waterline" tiles to represent amphibious landings.

Aegis, did they give you those (40% off ) packs at Christmas?

I for one would be very annoyed if they talked me out of buying them and than didn't buy them for me.

Lucky you for finding such a discount, mind you, if you're not allowed to buy them......

I'll have to try and get my wife into the game, so she won't object to me buying more. Women are weird that way. They don't seem to understand we really MUST HAVE those expansions. Why do you need those, you can play the game as it is, can't you?

Yeah.. sure......

Mind you they don't seem to apply that kind of logic when it comes to buying shoes. Why do you need another pair, you've allready got 40 pair upstairs...... (hey, maybe we could convince them we need the new expansions, cause the old ones have gone out of fashion )

women.......

Nah, I never ended up getting them, but the online store I frequent (The Warstore), has them for about a buck more. So I guess I'll just buy them from Neal. Then I can get Call to Arms at the same time. God knows he has enough of my money already, lol.

Ask him for a discount for advertising his site.

I'd never heard of it before you mentioned it.

sagitar said:

Don't Get Me Started!