Treacherous reads: " While you defend, you may choose a ship obstructing the attack and spend 1 [charge] . If you do, cancel 1 [hit] or [crit] result, and the ship you chose gains 1 strain token.

After a ship at range 0-3 is destroyed, recover 1 charge ."

So if an enemy's ship is obstructing an attack, I can just straight up cancel one of their attack results AND hand a strain to the ship that is obstructing the attack? AND it has the ability to recharge if ANY ship is destroyed at range 0-3? This just seems too powerful, especially since it is only 2 points. Free and (relatively) attack dice result cancellation in addition to handing out a strain?

Am I missing something? Why isn't this stapled on any CIS ship with a talent?

11 minutes ago, player655164 said:

Treacherous reads: " While you defend, you may choose a ship obstructing the attack and spend 1 [charge] . If you do, cancel 1 [hit] or [crit] result, and the ship you chose gains 1 strain token.

After a ship at range 0-3 is destroyed, recover 1 charge ."

So if an enemy's ship is obstructing an attack, I can just straight up cancel one of their attack results AND hand a strain to the ship that is obstructing the attack? AND it has the ability to recharge if ANY ship is destroyed at range 0-3? This just seems too powerful, especially since it is only 2 points. Free and (relatively) attack dice result cancellation in addition to handing out a strain?

Am I missing something? Why isn't this stapled on any CIS ship with a talent?

1. It only has 1 charge. Meaning there is a good to fair chance you will only get 1 use out of it for the entire game since your opponent can just focus that ship down before it can use its ability that much.

2. I don't think ships obstructing attacks happens as often as you think it would. So the situation to occur where you can put a ship between you, and have your charge active isnt all that often.

3. The only way to get more than one use out of it, is to be in range of a ship being destroyed, which by the time that starts happening, is somewhat likely that they will either be focusing you down, or popping ships out of your range.

4. While this does work on opponent ships, the most likely target for its ability will be one of your own ships, and likewise for it getting recharged off of one of your own ships being destroyed.

So while it has its use, i don't think its as powerful in practice as you are imagining it is on paper.

Just now, Lyianx said:

1. It only has 1 charge. Meaning there is a good to fair chance you will only get 1 use out of it for the entire game since your opponent can just focus that ship down before it can use its ability that much.

2. I don't think ships obstructing attacks happens as often as you think it would. So the situation to occur where you can put a ship between you, and have your charge active isnt all that often.

3. The only way to get more than one use out of it, is to be in range of a ship being destroyed, which by the time that starts happening, is somewhat likely that they will either be focusing you down, or popping ships out of your range.

4. While this does work on opponent ships, the most likely target for its ability will be one of your own ships, and likewise for it getting recharged off of one of your own ships being destroyed.

So while it has its use, i don't think its as powerful in practice as you are imagining it is on paper.

ah yeah, I actually just went ahead and used it for the first time last night and it felt scummy. It only got one use, but that one use was all I needed to win the game (protected my firespray from being halved).

I would imagine this would be a nightmare if your opponent was flying swarm--probably lots of overlapping and lots of recharging the ability from dead ships. But the way I'm treating it in my head is "essentially a 2 pt hull upgrade + strain under the right conditions". Even if it's only used once, it still is worth the 2 points.

1 hour ago, player655164 said:

ah yeah, I actually just went ahead and used it for the first time last night and it felt scummy. It only got one use, but that one use was all I needed to win the game (protected my firespray from being halved).

I would imagine this would be a nightmare if your opponent was flying swarm--probably lots of overlapping and lots of recharging the ability from dead ships. But the way I'm treating it in my head is "essentially a 2 pt hull upgrade + strain under the right conditions". Even if it's only used once, it still is worth the 2 points.

yeah, but its so incredibly situational that if it cost more, it wouldn't be worth it and just be more economical to just put a hull upgrade on (if you are tight on points and cant do both).

1 hour ago, player655164 said:

I would imagine this would be a nightmare if your opponent was flying swarm--probably lots of overlapping and lots of recharging the ability from dead ships. But the way I'm treating it in my head is "essentially a 2 pt hull upgrade + strain under the right conditions". Even if it's only used once, it still is worth the 2 points.

Its also the opportunity cost, if you have an open Talent slot and 2 points to spare you would need a pretty good reason to run Treacherous over Predator

for some lists it's an obvious choice. defensive mods are a lot more valuable than offensive ones generally. hull upgrade is a lot more expensive for most ships. the meta game currently has a lot of swarm play, which makes treacherous extra valuable. especially if you're running firesprays.

but i digress. this discussion belongs in the list building forum - and not the rules forum.

Noga, noga, not gonna matter anymore in a couple weeks.

17 hours ago, player655164 said:

Am I missing something? Why isn't this stapled on any CIS ship with a talent?

Probably because because CIS ship with a talent slot have been fairly limited until recently. Until the Slave 1 and Trifighter wave, only 1 Scimitar pilot , 3 Bellbulab pilots, and the Nantex pilots could take it. And when Crack Shot was 2 points or less, you took Crack Shot.

45 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Probably because because CIS ship with a talent slot have been fairly limited until recently. Until the Slave 1 and Trifighter wave, only 1 Scimitar pilot , 3 Bellbulab pilots, and the Nantex pilots could take it. And when Crack Shot was 2 points or less, you took Crack Shot.

Yeah, I suspect this is why it's been so cheap. Usually there are better uses for the talent slot, perhaps unless you're running a swarm with a Bellbulab relay-carrier. Recently I have been running a 2-list Firespray/Infiltrator lineup, and treacherous on the Firespray seemed like an easy choice on fat Zam since she already has plenty of offensive mods.

20 hours ago, player655164 said:

Treacherous reads: " While you defend, you may choose a ship obstructing the attack and spend 1 [charge] . If you do, cancel 1 [hit] or [crit] result, and the ship you chose gains 1 strain token.

After a ship at range 0-3 is destroyed, recover 1 charge ."

So if an enemy's ship is obstructing an attack, I can just straight up cancel one of their attack results AND hand a strain to the ship that is obstructing the attack? AND it has the ability to recharge if ANY ship is destroyed at range 0-3? This just seems too powerful, especially since it is only 2 points. Free and (relatively) attack dice result cancellation in addition to handing out a strain?

Am I missing something? Why isn't this stapled on any CIS ship with a talent?

Treacherous is indeed *arithmetically* and *probabilistically* overpowered. Massively so.

But arithmetic and probability. It's also *geometry*.

And geometrically speaking... Treacherous is utter garbage. The effect is broken-strong, but the conditions where it happens are rare enough that in practice, it's 2 wasted points most of the time.