still missing 2 cards in rogues list. i am counting only 18. likely some uniques, since it should be cards appearing once in the pack.

You might be missing the plot and agenda. You have to click "Plot" and "Agenda" for them to appear...

Dobbler said:

For those of us who have seen the spoilers, but haven't had a chance to play with the cards, which cards do you think drastically affect the metagame?

Minstrel's Muse certainly is. Starks playing heavy Tulley powered up by the Blackfish can challenge you multiple times, clearing your board and close out with this plot for a four power gain in dominance.

Melisandre in a vigilant deck using epic battle events for additional challenges puts a serious hurt on decks that can't keep up. Perfect kill switch for delayed rush decks.

Starfall Healer just made House Dayne decks very dangerous.

The Wall just turned every NW into a potential jumper.

Val

'nuff said.

Val is interesting... I'm not sure I would classify her as meta-altering, but that is mostly because I haven't seen anyone abuse her yet...

i have to agree with dobbler here; my eyes popped when i first saw val, and i have a hard time not putting her in most every deck i build. also as a result, i make sure all my decks have an answer for val, either with stuff like flame-kissed, die by the sword, etc. i've seen some wildling decks just explode when she hits the field.

I don't get what makes her ability so good?

Am I right in thinking that she essentially reads "fish for an action; if you draw one, pay costs and play it" or is her effect a bit more impressive than that?

Perhaps somebody could throw out a quick example of insane stuff that they've seen the card used to do, just to help rookies like me get a handle on its potential?

she is cheap draw. the drawback is something that you can get around fairly easily. draw with her in marshalling before you pay any gold (or even after you kneel your reducers) and you can pretty much play any character she draws. she makes the heralds a lot better since they put to top of deck and she draws them. you do run the risk of drawing an event that you might not be able to play, but that can be deck built around. Its nice and cheap (neutral) draw so it can go into just about any deck.

Ahhhh,

I get it now. I'd assumed that she could only fire actions out, but if using her in the Marshalling phase lets you play basically anything you draw, then that makes her much better.

So, she in fact reads, "You pretty much hit the draw-cap every turn. Go crazy".

LoneWanderer said:

Yup

As a one strength character she's very fragile, but agreed her ability is crazy good for any deck.

If I understand Val's ability, currently there is no response that she could play, right?

Well let's say you use Val to draw a card right after someone attacks you. You reveal and draw Red Vengeance. Now you can just say UO and use it as your next response.

Staton said:

Oh, I thought that it have to be the very next opportunity to play response (i.e. your response to drawing card by Val). But it's more like reducers - you can keep the card as long as you don't play anything. And if you do (it may be 3 actions later) it must be that card or you discard it (as a passive?).

Rogue30 said:

I don't read it that way. If you get to a Response opportunity step or a Player Action window and you choose not to trigger a Response or take an action, you have passed on your next action. You have, for all intents and purposes, taken your next action by choosing not to trigger an action.

So if you use Val's ability to draw into a Response that is not applicable in the next Response opportunity step (namely, to triggering her ability), you will have to discard that Response. Her ability is pretty much death to Response events.

If her ability let you hold the drawn card - without triggering anything else - until it was legal to use, there would be no need for the "if able" in her text.

ktom said:

So my first thought was correct. I wasn't sure.

Yeah, Val is great. I think it's pretty easy to get around the "response" downside...just don't include many responses in your decklist and it's less likely to be an issue. In fact, building a deck with an extremely low cost curve should ensure that you can hit your draw cap each turn without discarding cards that you couldn't afford to play.

By the way, if you really want to include those response effects in your decklist, there's always recursion: Targ's waifs will pull back discarded response effects, as will Open Market in Martell, and I think a couple other houses have recursive options.

One rule I'm a bit unclear on is how long the effect of "play the card you draw" works. At what point can I say "I don't have the influence/gold/etc. open to pay for this, so I'm going to draw the next card with her ability"? For example, I draw an event that says "challenges: blah blah," can I then discard that and draw a second card (or simply choose to marshall another guy) or has Val effectively ended my marshalling phase?

Twn2dn said:

I'm not sure why you would think any of that.

Triggering Val's ability is an "Any Phase" action. Within that action, you are going to have a Response opportunity. If you reveal/draw a Response effect (like an event) and do not play it during that very next opportunity, the card is discarded. Because it was revealed, your opponent will be able to monitor this. Similarly, if you reveal/draw a card that requires a standard action to play (a "Phase" event or a character/attachment/location) and do not play it on your very next action opportunity (ie, the next opportunity you have to play an action after triggering Val - and therefore in the very same player action window), the card is discarded.

That's all. It is no more complicated than that.

Simply put, when you reveal/draw a card with Val, you must play it on your very next Response or Action opportunity. If you cannot play it (because you cannot meet the play restrictions, pay the cost or choose appropriate targets), it is discarded and you can do something else instead (like triggering her again). Val does not create or change any current game state or situation in an attempt to make it easier to pay costs or meet restrictions (like immediately ending the Marshaling phase if you draw a Challenge phase effect with her ability).

Honestly, I don't think she's going to be nearly as useful as people think she's going to be because most of the stuff people draw with her is going to end up in the discard pile. In the right weenie deck, triggered during your turn as active player in the Marshaling phase, she'll be a beast. In a recursion-based deck, she'll be great because she can seed your discard pile very quickly. In Martell, Darkstar will love her. Other than that, I think she's going to be harder to use efficiently than people seem to think. Hitting your draw cap every round doesn't mean much if most of the cards are discarded instead of used.

I agree with you Ktom, she's great but you need to build seriously around her. Weenie characters and Any phase events will help to use her well, and there's some combos with the heralds. There is maybe some use with godswood attendant or shae's manse...

Could have been great with Shields Islands

She's definitely a great card. However, I don't think you can use reducers such as fiefdoms, streets or seas to pay for characters, locations or attachements you draw. Her ability says to play the card you draw as your next action. If I kneel a fiefdom or discard a sea, that is actually my next action and so I'll be forced to discard the card I just drew.

What you can do however, is kneel or discard reducers BEFORE you start drawing with Val .

What happens when you're running Blood of the First Men Agenda? Does it reduce a Wilding character Val draws?

Zsa said:

Exactly.

Many players weren't around in the CCG days when Bandit Lord was played. It was common in those days to actually kneel your reducers during your opponent's marshalling phase (before your own) to get their effect before the got discarded from play.

Zsa said:

Lars said:

XcentricX said:

Why wouldn't it?

Dobbler said:

But be careful. If you kneel a Fiefdom, discard a Sea and then use Val to "draw" into a Refugee....

Remember, if you can play the card you draw, you must. So it's not like you can choose to discard the Refugee in that situation and use the reducers on something else instead. You must play the Refugee - and lose the benefits of all those pre-knelt reducers.