One of the biggest buzzes coming out of the Missouri Regional was a negative feeling towards Fear of Winter. Words like NPE, banning and errata were thrown around alot. And while I'm not sure if any of those things are necessary one thing I do know for sure is that this card is altering the metagame in a similar way as First Snow of Winter (just in an opposite fashion). Where First Snow caused me to look at 2 STR characters with disdain when building decks, this plot is causing me to look at 4 and 4+ costed characters with disdain due to slowing down my deck and my setups.

However, instead of starting a thread to simply rehash the same complaints, I thought I would go another route and just ask some questions.

First, are you concerned with this card and its effect on the game? Why or why not?

Second, regardless of if you are concerned or not, what are the in-game options for dealing with this plot, both when this plot is used as the Hammer (the opening plot after a strong flop) or as the Nail in the coffin (the closer to finish out a game)? Please do not suggest errata or banning, I'm more interested in what we can do right now to deal with it.

Good post, Dobbler.

Fear of Winter is actually one of my favorite plots. I can understand how some people could be concerned about it, but so far I can say it has not caused any NPE for me personally (not that it couldn't, just that it hasn't yet). Seems most people I have played against since it's been released like to use it, so that popularity alone I think says something about it. I definitely would not want to see it banned, because I feel we need more plot options in the LCG, not less. As some have said in the past, the more we have, the better off we all are. Options are good.

As far as how to deal with it in the metagame, there isn't a whole lot we can do right now. I'd say the new Old Bear would be good, but he only works on "when revealed" plots, which Fear of Winter is not. I think there is a version of Margaery Tyrell that can be used to force an opponent to reveal a new plot (sorry, don't remember her exact wording and cannot find her on Dabbler's search engine for some reason). Making her mandatory in every deck to deal with one plot seems sort of bad to me, though. I think one thing that would help a lot is if a plot like "Forgotten Plans" made a return to the LCG. This could stop the madness of Fear of Winter without forcing any bans and as a plot would be an option available to all houses equally. I know others have called for a plot cancel plot before; maybe Fear of Winter provides the impetus to make that more necessary now.

Sorry I can't offer much more at the moment, but these are my thoughts on it. It's definitely a powerful plot and has the potential to win games on its own if timed right and played under the right circumstances.

i think fear of winter is an amazing plot, but I dont think its broken to the extent of banning it. I have had some trouble with it, but it has never outright lost me a game (unless the opponent was already winning).

Well as Dobbler has already stated, in a game at the Missouri regionals he could have won first turn with this plot, had one of his renown characters not been knelt.

I think this plot is game changing. A good flop can use this plot then follow up with a blockade and pretty much shut out your opponent for the first two turns.

Now since I didn't play in the CCG era, I don't know any reprints that would be helpful, but something that cancels plot effects would be very useful.

Right, Husemann. That's exactly what "Forgotten Plans" did. It blanks all plots other than itself in all phases except the plot phase. I think it would be a great solution, and not only to "Fear of Winter", but to other annoying plots as well.

Yes, I thought it was a great plot and while, I never have found the excuse to use it in my own decks, I recommended it to others for sure. Unfortunately, I hadn't seen in in combination until this weekend with Blockade, Rule By Decree, and Epic Battles for multiple challenges. While I'm not ready to say ban just yet, that sequence (heck, even just the plots) creates a pretty Negative Play Experience. Have a consistent setup with as many cards as possible is already a strong strategy. Most veteran players will tell you that having at least a 3 card setup is an absolute must and many will mulligan if they don't get to place at least 4. I agree with Dobbler that this card seems very much an anti-First Snow. Rather than giving a weenie reset, it instead encourages them (especially with the round 2 Blockade) to what I feel might be an outrageous level. The best way that I can think of to combat it with what's in the game right now is to heavily skew your own deck in the same direction with as many 2 cost or lower characters as possible. The synergy between this usage creates a game state where opponents cannot put enough new cards into play from their hand to alter the board standings after setup for at least the first 2 full turns of the game. Then, the third turn limits their options an extreme amount. I see this as a dangerous road to go down, not only because of the frustration level in each game where the cards that you draw past your opening hand essentially don't matter but as well it heavily discourages the usage of the (primarily 3 and 4 cost) unique characters that are a large draw of the game for a signification portion of the field.

i do like forgotten plans......buts thats a different thread.

I think w/ only 2 gold fear of winter is fine....the 2 claim is a little egregious perhaps, but with that and marched to the wall coming back you might just have to mulligian a 1 character flop like we used to before.

Another option is to play no characters the first turn and either deal w/ or hope you have draw to replace the 2 claim int. Granted this works a lot better in some decks then others. This also lessens the blow of the round 2 blockade.

The only thing that bothers me about the plot is that it once again proves how much of an advantage shadow cards (a way around FoW) are...if you can flop two of them you get 3 cards instead of 1 with this plot, I find that this causes a lot of the negative experiences as you are now manipilating the restriction and because someone choose to build their deck in a viable style they are now 2 cards (or more) behind. To a lesser degree shadows also minimizes this plot as you can flop either location heavy or shadow heavy and as your one card put another card into shadows (where it remains nice and safe from the 2 claim).

The plot can be great against an event heavy control deck though, especially with a rule by decree after, so maybe there will be more builds that don't flip it 1st turn, but instead what for a key moment (not the 2 dobbler mentions). One of my favorite uses of it is out of greyjoy in melee when i have saves on the board an i think a reset is coming......brutal

I think the problem with Fear of Winter is that decks built around it can completely shut down the other player on the first turn. Follow it up with blockade and there isn't a whole lot your opponent can do. I mean how many characters do most decks flop? one or two? maybe three on a good flop. A deck built around this plot will flop four or five characters. Then after Fear of Winter and Blockade they still have a very clear board advantage. Something that most decks can't come back from. I think the thing that hurts the most is the two claim. Especially if you can get a two claim intrigue challenge off first turn too. I know Kevin's deck was made to do that. You've lost your flop of characters and two cards from your hand on the first turn, and your opponent hasn't lost much of anything.

So let's talk about things to do to get around the plot. You can make a deck that flops lots of characters in order to have the board advantage. This forces them to play the plot and probably coming out behind, or just not playing the plot first turn. This is what I had to do in order to keep up with the deck. However, this really only works in Stark, GJ, or Bara. The other three can flop characters, but they can't match the military presence of the other player.

You can Valar on turn 1 or 2. I prefer turn 2, because you can try and flood the board at this point if you have alot of gold out or a lot of reducers. Turn 1 would work if you had enough resources out to play a bigger dude than they did, but you better make sure they have stealth. This option should work for most houses. Lanni could just play a kneel, martell could strip their one character of icons, and targ could try and lower its str I guess? Either way, this card (for better or for worse) changes the way you have to build your deck and play the game. I think that being that defining deserves a look at by the powers that be. Is it an NPE? It certainly can be if you aren't prepared for it. Are there ways to plan for it and play around it? Yes.

Wait, I don't get how playing no characters on the first turn lessens the blow of the second turn Blockade?

Also, The shadows cards do cost gold, at best you're getting two of them in setup and one in during that first turn, then essentially no gold for anything else. While I agree that the Shadows cards are safe from that two claim, I think the person in the stronger position is the one with the larger number of 0, 1, and possibly 2 cost characters in play.

2nd turn Valar might be a viable option, but then you're looking at a turn with no gold, no initiative, no claim, and no characters.

The problem I have with the reason that the plot only has 2 gold is that you almost always flop a gold or a sea and you only can put in one card, so does the low gold really matter? I don't think so. and the problem with not playing characters for the first two turns is that it puts you way behind on board advantage. And if you don't play characters, then they don't need to either and they will just rush the board with their cheaper guys the turn you reset. I just don't see how you can get the board advantage back. You have to out flop them essentially. and something that dictates the way you have to build your deck is bad IMO.

Just to separate the various ideas floating around...

• Is Fear of Winter NPE if played on round 3 or 4?...Not really, but the 2-claim makes it a tough plot to play around.
• Is Fear of Winter NPE or bad for the environment if played consistently on round 1?...At least sometimes.
• Is Fear of Winter played on round 1, followed by a round-2 blockade, NPE or bad for the environment? I believe so. Following up with multi-claim, Rule By Decree, etc. exacerbates the effect.

In other words, I think the context (obviously) makes a big difference. In metas where a round-1 FoW is uncommon, I can see people feeling like it is a powerful but not overly powerful plot. In metas where round-1 FoW is common, I suspect that many people will feel it's a bit more NPE.

In terms of playing around it, I think the only real solution is to build a deck that's fast enough to compete...or at least withstand the effect fairly well. (I don't think just giving up and playing locations only on setup is a practical solution, since that means you're likely to flop fewer cards and let three UO challenges + dom on the first turn, followed by a round-2 that will probably have a similar result.) And if you build a deck that can compete, there's really no reason not to run FoW on the first turn yourself. In other words, the best solution (I think) is to play round-1 FoW yourself.

Other than building a deck to run your own round-1 FoW, I think there are some possible responses that mitigate the effect. Playing lots of shadows cards so that you can pull cards out of shadows on round 1 is ideal. Another option is to build a deck that can outlast the opponent with control, draw, and Valar. Since Lanni runs shadows and draw most effectively these days, I think it's the house that has the best chance of building a control build that can withstand FoW. (In other words, I think the vast majority of control builds typically crumble against consecutive FoW, Blockade, and a 2-claim plot.) Lanni often still has a tough time, but a castellan on setup (along with a weenie or two) and an Arys/Enemy Informer on round 1 can help to stall the aggro player long enough to stabilize.

Not to be a downer, but I just don't see that many ways to play around to the round-1 FoW, round-2 Blockade combo. What's worse, I think the mere existence of this combo deters many players from taking non-Lanni control builds to competitions. (Speaking for myself, this plot sequence is a major factor in why I took a Targ wildling build rather than my preferred Targ or Martell control builds to the VA regionals, where I played FoW on round 1 every game. Obviously not a guaranteed way to win, since I didn't win the tournament, but then I did find it pretty effective.)

I love this plot cause I play aggressive decks. When I first saw the plot I thought: "Finally a way to threat control decks. Decks that relies on event".

I see FOW in this way. I usually don't use it as 1st plot, most of all cause I know my opponent think this... played in the right moment change the game... but also other plots act the same "Power of blood", Valar, City plot (I continue to think that kneel city + kill city + copy effect city are the very threat in the game).

At the end I confirm that FOW is a great plot, but not to ban o something like that. It is tactical and "how to counterattack it"???

it depends on the deck, but thinking how to battle it is the same that think about "What to do now that in one turn I have 3 char knelt by city and the turn after 4?!?" :-)

Isn't there a plot in the Core Set where your opponent has to pay you 2 gold to initiate a Military challenge against you? Would that help at all against Fear of Winter? Is that 2 gold per Military challenge?

the plot you are saying is uneasy truce. Since it has initiative 0 it is not a good solution against fear cause the "fear player" will start as first player and with only 1 stealth can easy clean the table of the opponent. Then Greyjoy and Stark (that has the most benefit with this card) has lots of 0 gold char so they marshall anyway... in the case of a Stark it is common not marshal and use some event (winter is coming, distinct, lethal).

In answer to the first couple questions, yes, I am concerned about the plot. It exemplifies the one aspect of the game that I don't like, which is the tendency of many cards to reward the player with the stronger board position. These kinds of cards are fine in theory, but I find many of them too swingy in practice. Even before Fear of Winter was printed, I was annoyed by the fact that a decent number of games would be decided based on the better flop+draw because it is so hard to claw back into the game if the opponent starts off with stronger characters and starts triggering effects which require winning challenges while you are unable to. Fear of Winter really exacerbates that problem.

Great post Dobbler!

Agreed with schrechlick and twn2dn - if you're playing in a meta where Turn 1 FoW + Turn 2 Blockade is common - the Plot has already changed your approach to the game. Right now i like maximizing the flop and early draw to gat around the Plot. Five or six Refugees are pretty standard in my decks and liek Dobbler - as few four cost and above characters as I can get away with.

Sam and Ravens aren't teh answer becuase you don't wnat the bird to be the only charcter you play on turn 1. And I'm with Dan - do you really want to concede two cards, 3 and four pwoer rigth out of the gate by just spamming locations on 1? I don't think the all locaiton flop is the answer.

Gualdo: Uneasty Truce might be an answer - where si teh Stark GY player gtting the 2 gold to pay you with only two on the Plot card? He's not goign to ahve much. (Of course all he really needs is Syrio - but there you are: no shadows control *shrug*)

Forgotten Plans would be great - at least then the Turn 1 lock wouldn't be an auto play. as it is, i'm expecting it in every game I play at the regional this weekend. Its defitneiyl an NPE with the Blockade/RBD/Valar seqeunce and it already has chanegd my deck building approach like no Plot since Valar was reprinted and First snow before that.

floping no characters helps as it gives you more flexibilty...open with valar, marched etc, it gets your locations on the board it negates the 2 claim mil, and in a house with some kind of draw its not going to cripple your hand, or it allows you to rule second turn....maybe not the ideal answer, but a better solution when you have a bad mulligan...

also things like orphan of the green blood and the character income guys (gold and reducers) are great to flop against it

its a pain, but its not unbeatable.

Here are some house specific solutions that work (if you happen to be lucky enough to have them on the flop or in your hand after setup)

Martell - Red Vengeance (if you flopped 2 INF) or Game of Cyvasse (if you can bounce a lone attacking MIL character) or Multiple Orphan of the greenblood's flopped with a Wrath in hand

Lannister - Flop a Castellan and marshall an Enemy Informer, although kneeling two characters still may not be enough. You need to hope you also flopped a Toll Gate

Baratheon - flop Defenders of the North Margaery Tyrell and use her ability or Play Lords of the Narrow Sea

Greyjoy - Flop Multiple iron mines (or saves) to be able to withstand the MIL challenge claim

Stark - Lethal Counterattack

Targ - Hmm, I'm struggling to come up with one, maybe Scorched Earth?

Non-house specific - War are Won with Quills, Uneasy Truce (this won't always work), Wildfire (if they flopped 4+ characters)

Actually, the best way to deal with it has already been mentioned several times, "if you can't beat them, join them". Basically, modify your deck to reflect the same time of build. Lots of low cost, high Military, stealthy characters intended to allow you to flop 4-6 cards every game. But right now I don't feel comfortable that the primary answer to the Fear/Blockade/RBD stuff is to basically build the same type of deck.

Agreed, Dobbs - and a bunch of mirror matches isn't exactly good for the environment.

Admittedly - i was entertaining the thought of no characters on 1 and an opening Valar - but if they bounce back quicker, or if they started with guys in shadows....

Another change to my deck building has been the ruthless stripping of events. You don't want 3+ events in your hand on Turn 1 - you probably can't play them and it redcues the flop. To that end I have been playing around a threshold of six events of late - which is a big departure from most of my decks for teh past couple of years. Just becuase of the Turn 1 Fear.

As people who know me, um...know...I am the worst rules guy for a decent player of all time.

How does the plot phase work on City of Secrets (or whatever one let's you 2 shadow cards)? You still get those in addition to your 1 character drop, correct? There are lots of good neutral shadow cards to try to flop (and at least a few good ones for each house).

While I see people's thoughts on this hurting big characters (which I HATE), it also helps them in that you should get more 'bang for your buck' out of your one card.

I haven't seen the deck at work, especially w/ Epic cards. But I agree that putting a couple of Epics in your deck might help, some shadow cards, maybe Forgotten Plans, and some 0-cost characters (pesronally I like the house ones, and Gilly makes every deck usually).

Either that or take the first couple of turns off (locations, the only CBK guy out there Coldhands) and Valar.

Looking at the cheap GJ and Stark cards, Threat doesn't do a lot.

Or, as I have said all along...REPRINT FIRST SNOW DANGIT!!! I loved that plot...

Good thread!

The deck my friend Kevin used at the Missouri regional did the Fear/RBD/BLockade stuff. It only ran 8 events (all Epic battles which could be played preplot, prior to the Fear). It ran 4 attachments (2 white ravens, 2 Support of Harlaw). The other 48 cards were all cost 3 or lower.

Here is the problem with playing Valar first turn against that deck, it ran saves (iron mines, aemon, wendamyr), and 4 shadow cards, so it would often sit prettier after that first turn Valar. As well, since it preplotted an Epic, it would choose NOT to do an intrigue challenge during that first turn so it would have one less card than the opponent going into that second plot. Then it would reveal RBD. So even with the first turn Valar, it would often have board and card advantage by the end of the second turn plot. It was nasty and there was almost nothing an opponent could do to change that.

@Rings - No, you do not get both Shadows cards and your one card. You only get to put one card in shadows and it counts as your one and only card. Putting a card in shadows counts towards that cap (per the most recent FAQ). And forgotten plans is a legacy card, not legal in LCG.

Uneasy Truce against the turn 2 blockade.

In response to rings: Why stop at first snow? Reprint Outmauever.

Really? Wow...that makes those decks even more tough. I guess that blanking plot is pretty close to the only really viable answer now (other than 'joining them'). IMHO of course. That 2 claim really hurts.

While I used to really agree that a Outmaneuver/Outfox plot is already good for the environment, I am not as sure these days. I think it is mainly due to the lack of consistant control cards, although that may change. That lack of control meant that Valar and Wildfire are the only remotely strong cards to control the board outside of a couple of houses. If First Snow and the other Wildfire (the discard one...Winter Storm?) were legal I liked those plots. But now...not quite so sure.

I am very against weenie decks. I just don't think they are fun to play, or play against. I have said it 1,000 times (I know, shut up already rings!) I want to play Blackfish and dragons and Jaime...not Stark/GJ free/1-cost chud #822. So I am always loath to see strong decks that break these cards that really have little to no drawbacks to playing them. Just think these are bad for the game. The inherent weakness of uniques should result in a more powerful card...but many non-uniques are priced low for their abilities and there isn't enough hate for negative traits that they could have (i.e. ally, or low strength, or no crest - that would be a good one!).

4/6/1 "Chuds Suck Plot" All characters without a Crest are knelt and cannot stand during the standing phase.

They should make duplicates an exception to fear of winter.