I feel like I've seen the answer to this, but after searching the forums for about 15 minutes, I can't seem to find it.

If I play Game of Cyvasse, kneel the character with the higher STR, and target Eddard to return to hand, can my opponent cancel the "Then" effect? If he can, and he chooses cancel, does it cancel only the "Then" effect, or does it somehow cancel the whole effect and stand the characters that were knelt to satisfy the first part of the event's effect?

Thanks again...wish these forums had a better search function.

Twn2dn said:

(NOTE: I edited my response a little bit after thinking more about what ktom wrote in the other thread).

I feel like it should be possible to answer this question by referencing what ktom wrote in this thread . In that thread ktom points out that the "then" effect is part of a single, cancelable resolution step that includes the part before the "then". So my interpretation would be that if Eddard can cancel A Game of Cyvasse he has to cancel the whole effect by canceling during the initial kneeling part before the "Then" (and so in the end the characters would be left standing). However, it is pretty unlikely that a Noble character will be the only target (since usually multiple targets are chosen in the first part of the effect) and so unlikely that Eddard will be able to cancel it. If the only character with an Intrigue icon in play was a noble, or the only player with standing characters with Intrigue icons chose a noble character, then I'd think Eddard could cancel the event. Once the event starts resolving and a character is chosen to be returned I think it is too late to cancel.

Here are the card texts for others' reference:

Eddard:

Response: Cancel a triggered effect that chooses a N character as the only target. Then, draw a card. (Limit once per phase.)

A Game of Cyvasse:

Challenges: Each player must choose and kneel a character with an I icon he or she controls, if able. Then, the player who knelt the character with the highest STR may choose and return a character to its owner's hand.

Actually, it's even simpler than that in this case.

Eddard can only cancel an effect wherein the Noble is chosen as the only target of the effect. With Game of Cyvasse, remember that the character with intrigue icons knelt are chosen/targeted, too. So if someone "wins" the Game of Cyvasse and chooses to return Eddard to hand, he is not the only target of the effect, so his play restrictions aren't met and he cannot cancel the event - in whole or in part.

@schrecklich: That was probably the thread (or similar to the thread) I was looking for. That answers the broader/more general question I had. Thanks!

@Ktom: Wow, excellent point. It's funny how one reads a card, plays with the effect, learns it, and then completely forgets the precise language that contains the answer. (In the future, I will try to reread cards before posting questions...but I reserve the right to be stupid from time to time )

ktom said:

I always thought and I think we discussed it here already that Game of Cyvasse is not a regular Cost>Effect event, but it has two separate effects. So that Red Viper is immine to the first part since it is not a cost. So what am I missing here?

Rozy said:

The Red Viper is immune to the first part because choosing and kneeling the character with the intrigue icon is not a cost. You cannot choose him for the kneeling part of the effect.

But whomever you do kneel is chosen and targeted by the effect. That's the whole reason you cannot choose to kneel the Viper for the event. He is immune to events and thus cannot be chosen as a target.

When you determine which player won the "game" and gets to choose a character to bounce for the "then" part of Game of Cyvasse, you are still resolving that original event. The Viper cannot be chosen to be bounced, either. And whomever you DO choose is just another target of the event. The whole point with Eddard here is that if you and I both chose to kneel characters with an intrigue icon, the event has 2 targets; if one of us then chooses to return Eddard to hand for the "then" part of the effect, he becomes the third target of the single event. If he is the third target of the event, he certainly is not the "only" target of the event. And if he is not the "only" target, his cancel ability does not apply.

It's not that Game of Cyvass is "not a regular Cost>Effect event;" it is that the event has no cost. The kneeling part before the "then" is one effect of the event and the bounce part after the "then" is another. It's all the same event, though. Eddard can only cancel something where a Noble is the one and only thing chosen by the effect. With Game of Cyvass, he will pretty much never be the only thing chosen by the event - and certainly never if the part he is chosen for is the "then bounce" part of the effect.

To make sure I understand things, let me run this unlikely (but not entirely out of the realm of possibility) situation by you, ktom. Let's say you have Eddard and Renly (the A Time of Ravens cycle version with an INT icon and a Noble crest) who is standing. I am playing Martell and have no standing characters with INT icons. I don't want you to win dominance so I play A Game of Cyvasse to make you kneel Renly. Your opportunity to cancel the event with Eddard occurs before the event resolves so the character to be returned has not been chosen yet. Renly is the only target. You can cancel A Game of Cyvasse with Eddard (despite the fact that if you did not cancel a second target would be chosen and Eddard's response's play restriction would no longer be met).

Ktom the thing that confuses me is that he does not say cancel an EVENT but cancel a triggered effect, and the event has two separates effect.

Response: Cancel a triggered effect that chooses a N character as the only target. Then, draw a card. (Limit once per phase.)

Rozy, we are being a bit loose with the word "effect" in this case. There is only one bold timing word ("challenges") followed by a colon (":") on the card. Everything after that ":" is triggered all at once and is a single "triggered effect" even if it has multiple parts that each have their own "effect" on the game.

Another way to look at that: a triggered effect is defined as something that the player chooses to activate.

The "then" part of Cyvasse happens whether you want it to or not if one player kneels a character with a higher STR. For the "then" part to be a separate triggered effect in its own right, you would have to be able to decide NOT to initiate it, even after the kneeling intrigue characters part of the effect is successful.

The event card's dual effect (kneel characters, then return to hand) is a single triggered effect, not two separate triggered effects.

schrecklich said:

Well, just one small caveat here: Cyvasse does not say that you must choose and kneel a standing character with the intrigue icon, so if you, as the Martell player, has any characters with the intrigue icon on the board, you much choose it as a target of the event (even though the effect "fizzles" and is unsuccessful as far as your character that is already kneeling is concerned). So in your scenario, so long as you control a character with an intrigue icon, Renly will not be the "only" target of the event.

However, if Renly is the only character in play with an intrigue icon, he would be the "only" target of the event. At the time you can trigger the cancel, Eddard's play restrictions are indeed valid and he could cancel the effect - so Renly would not kneel.