On 12/24/2020 at 3:15 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

Shoju being regent isn't that odd at all. An emperor's choices are - for all their power - so constrained by tradition, ceremony, protocol and the sheer gulf of power between them and everyone else that their opportunities to have a 'trusted friend' are pretty few and far between.

Bayushi Shoju was the emperor's closest personal friend, champion of one of the most politically powerful factions in the capital, and about as close to the positive scorpion stereotype (do what must be done for the empire) as his wife is to the negative stereotype. He doesn't feel that odd a choice, despite not being Imperial per se.

The Empire is not unused to high offices being given out to the great clans - I can't recall any cases of an Imperial Family Emerald Champion, for example, despite the post being the second most powerful after the Emperor themselves.

Rewarding the Great Clans with high positions is not unreasonable, given that those high positions are either mostly ceremonial or are otherwise restricted in just how much they can do in favor of their clans.

And choosing a Scorpion for advisor or whatever, perfectly reasonable.

The issue is that there are these 7 clans who all want to destroy, or at least minimize, each other and seize control of as much of the empire as they can to rule in in their customs and traditions and see their particular set of biases and ideals be disseminated. So Jodan deciding to retire and effectively crown a Scorpion the interim Emperor for the next several years is what just doesn't make sense. The cracks between the clans-- nah, the outright war-- had already reached a point beyond what it had for centuries. So giving absolute authority and power to a single clan is something that's difficult to see turn out well.

The Gozoku was a thing and no one seemed to be happy about how that went-- and that was a case where roughly half the clans were sharing the authority of the throne, so at least half of Rokugan was having to negotiate and bargain their interests. But just one guy who is in charge of one clan, the optimi of the person whose very role in life is to lead and advance the interests of that clan, being granted absolute authority is simply bad on its face-- even if Jodan hadn't been assassinated, even if Jodan and Satoru went off to the monastery just as Jodan had planned... things would have turned out just as bad, if not worse, because it was only because there was some functional basis for the others to rebel against Scorpion rule that Shoju's reign was cut short before he inevitably became a tyrant and started permanently expanding and entrenching Scorpion power forever more. It wouldn't have had to even be a conscious thing.

The regent being an independent person who had long abandoned any claim to the throne, but was still fully invested in the reign of the Hantei and didn't have any reason to favor any of the 7 clans over any other, or at least not a big, obvious one that they wear on their face, sleeve and back on a daily basis.

3 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

So Jodan deciding to retire and effectively crown a Scorpion the interim Emperor for the next several years is what just doesn't make sense.

He doesn’t have any choice. Sotorii’s unsuitable, Daisetsu’s too young, and his health is too poor to hold on until his youngest son is of age exactly because tensions are so high right now and he can’t read anymore, meaning everything he knows is filtered through Bayushi Kachiko & Kakita Yoshi. The Empress has been in seclusion for over a decade, so who’s left?

Bayushi Shoju - His oldest friend and Scorpion Clan Champion

Akodo Toturi - Emerald Champion and Lion Clan Champion

Otomo Sorai - Otomo Family Daimyo and ally of Bayushi Kachiko

Miya Satoshi - Miya Family Daimyo, Imperial Herald and Kolat Leader

Those are the 4 people in a position to become Regent, and he went with the person he trusted most, and relied on Toturi’s reputation that he’d be solid as Emerald Champion.

To be fair, if the attempt isn’t made on Toturi’s life, he might actually work well with Shoju. And if Daisetsu hadn’t run, the two of them would be good mentors in the practical applications of Bushido and responsible leadership. Unfortunately, Sotorii and Kachiko make that outcome impossible.

1 hour ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

He doesn’t have any choice. Sotorii’s unsuitable, Daisetsu’s too young, and his health is too poor to hold on until his youngest son is of age exactly because tensions are so high right now and he can’t read anymore, meaning everything he knows is filtered through Bayushi Kachiko & Kakita Yoshi. The Empress has been in seclusion for over a decade, so who’s left?

Bayushi Shoju - His oldest friend and Scorpion Clan Champion

Akodo Toturi - Emerald Champion and Lion Clan Champion

Otomo Sorai - Otomo Family Daimyo and ally of Bayushi Kachiko

Miya Satoshi - Miya Family Daimyo, Imperial Herald and Kolat Leader

Those are the 4 people in a position to become Regent, and he went with the person he trusted most, and relied on Toturi’s reputation that he’d be solid as Emerald Champion.

To be fair, if the attempt isn’t made on Toturi’s life, he might actually work well with Shoju. And if Daisetsu hadn’t run, the two of them would be good mentors in the practical applications of Bushido and responsible leadership. Unfortunately, Sotorii and Kachiko make that outcome impossible.

Why would "connection with Bayushi Kachiko" count as a negative against Sorai and somehow not count against her own husband?

Also-- this further underlines how odd it is for Shoju to actually be his oldest friend as opposed to having any siblings or cousins at all. Why would he have been introduced to the future Scorpion Clan leader prior to anyone within his own "clan"?

Not many people I know consider their cousin their friend in more than a superficial sense. Especially not when considering their closest/oldest friend - there's an unstated implication that a friend is someone you chose to form ties with, rather than someone you had ties with outside your control.

Also worth keeping in mind is that historically, younger siblings and cousins were the number one source of problems for most forms of hereditary nobles (see also: Iuchiban). It's a lot easier to replace the king/emperor when you are already part of the right dynasty. It's not at all unheard of for kings and emperors to trust powerful ministers who are not family (or who are family by alliance, with no claims to the Throne, eg the Fujiwara regents in Japan who were usually Imperial in-laws, but not Imperials, Crane style) over their blood relatives.

Really, historically, siblings and cousins were more likely to end up with a knife in their back than with power in their hands.

2 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Why would "connection with Bayushi Kachiko" count as a negative against Sorai

Didn’t say it was a negative. In fact, from Jodan’s perspective it’s a positive. Shoju as Regent can count on his wife, who is the Imperial Advisor, and his wife’s chief ally, head of the Otomo and old hand at keeping the Clans down. It keeps as much of the existing bureaucracy in place as possible, and is already weighted towards the Scorpion.

On 12/25/2020 at 3:41 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

as opposed to having any siblings or cousins at all.

Any cousins of his are Otomo, which is what they do with spare Hantei. If Sotorii becomes Emperor, Daisetsu would be expected to drop the Hantei from his name.

We don’t know the precise relationship between himself and Sorai, but he’s probably Jodan’s closest blood relative after his sons. But making him Regent is just asking to have Jodan’s branch of the Hantei family tree culled & replaced by Sorai’s own offspring.

15 hours ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Any cousins of his are Otomo, which is what they do with spare Hantei. If Sotorii becomes Emperor, Daisetsu would be expected to drop the Hantei from his name.

We don’t know the precise relationship between himself and Sorai, but he’s probably Jodan’s closest blood relative after his sons. But making him Regent is just asking to have Jodan’s branch of the Hantei family tree culled & replaced by Sorai’s own offspring.

Which, if Daisetsu and Sotorii are declared dead, it would mean he would probably ascend as the next Hantei.

15 hours ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Any cousins of his are Otomo, which is what they do with spare Hantei. If Sotorii becomes Emperor, Daisetsu would be expected to drop the Hantei from his name.

We don’t know the precise relationship between himself and Sorai, but he’s probably Jodan’s closest blood relative after his sons. But making him Regent is just asking to have Jodan’s branch of the Hantei family tree culled & replaced by Sorai’s own offspring.

This part is something I recall from the old L5R, that Otomo Sorai was a character who popped up to contend for the throne and then was pretty easily dismissed or maybe even killed, it's hard to recall. Basically-- since there was no playable faction that would have supported such a bid, it really couldn't have been any sort of real challenge but couldn't have been anything but a dead-end plot regardless of whatever bluster was put into it.

But it does make me think-- sure, members of the Hantei join the Otomo, Seppun and sometimes Miya, but-- does swearing fealty to that family mean joining at the top of the family? I would imagine that the head of the Otomo family ought to be a descendant of Otomo himself rather than the latest person to drop the Hantei name. And, of course, presuming that bloodline shapes a person to a degree, Sorai-- at least the old depiction of him-- seems quintessentially Otomo.

In fact, I find it odd that apparently most ex-Hantei join the Otomo, but it is actually the Seppun with their palace/temple guards and magistrates who seem to have picked up most of that spirit of what I would imagine a robust "Hantei" family would look like to such a degree that it is often forgotten (the RPG book seemed to do so) that the Seppun family would probably be a shugenja family.

Granted-- being a shugenja family doesn't mean everyone has the gift to be a shugenja, but we don't often see non-shugenja Kuni, Kitsu, Agasha, etc. enough for the family to have a distinct identity aside from being shugenja. But the Seppun certainly do-- and do so to a degree that I think it is easy to think of them only in the role of guardians and watchmen and the shugenja aspect is often treated like "oh... and I guess they have those too" rather than that the family was founded by a fortune telling shugenja.

Then again other stories have conveyed that even with the other clans it seems like the daimyo of different families are no more than a generation or two separated, so I guess that might be the norm somehow in Rokugan.

Still, if Jodan had any siblings (and unless his own issues producing children has been a thing for generations before him, I don't know why he wouldn't), I don't know that the idea that they would get elevated directly to being daimyo upon joining the Otomo or Seppun. And, granted, maybe his younger brothers and sisters had already passed away...

But regardless of the circumstances, it really seems like if you are going to put someone in charge temporarily-- it shouldn't be the head of one of the 7 warring factions. Yes-- there is a chance that if you appoint another imperial in charge that they will decide to reclaim the Hantei name and kill your sons and claim legitimacy in doing so...

But the Scorpion are literally known for frequent and flagrant assassination, had ninja running around even the forbidden city murdering people wholly unabated by the guards posted there who apparently could not see them less than a meter in front of their face while looking directly at them... known for being untrustworthy traitors, eager to spout off their little frog and scorpion fable every single possible opportunity that arises to tell you that they are so.

So while a fellow imperial might possibly kill your kids and seize the throne for themselves-- a Scorpion, no matter how long you have known him and how much you like him, is virtually certain to do so. And, if not him, then the rest of his clan acting on his behalf. Because-- that's just their nature-- and they are all too eager and giddy to tell you so were to ever give them any chance to do so.

But I guess it all cracks up to simply "Jodan was a completely inept imbecile who couldn't manage his personal relations at all and probably shouldn't have even been ruling as his only qualification was being born into the right family" and you could probably trace that back however many generations, with every one of them getting every random impulse and whim they might have being treated as absolutely correct, never getting to learn from mistakes because the entire empire colludes to deny anything you do could ever be a mistake, never having the opportunity to improve through struggle as you are treated as whole and perfect despite having just as many flaws as anyone else.

It is most obvious in how Satoru and Daisetsu turned out, but perhaps choosing Shoju as regent and expecting that to ever turn out well is just indication that the whole rot had taken hold well before this generation. Regardless of how he might have conducted himself better with those around him than his sons, we don't have any real indication that any choices he ever made were good and the only choice we know for certain that he made was just the worst possible one a person could have made.

Quote

So while a fellow imperial might possibly kill your kids and seize the throne for themselves-- a Scorpion, no matter how long you have known him and how much you like him, is virtually certain to do so. And, if not him, then the rest of his clan acting on his behalf. Because-- that's just their nature-- and they are all too eager and giddy to tell you so were to ever give them any chance to do so.

Funny. I don't recall Shoju - or any Scorpion - doing that, thinking about doing that, or giving any indication that they might do that. The closest anyone did was...cover up Sotorii's murder snd protect the person they considered the heir. Yes, with an eye toward gaining power - but also with an eye toward maintaining the Imperial line. So...the opposite of what you say they would do.

Is this another case of you reading a different story than anyone else and forgetting it exists only in your head?

The Scorpion and the frog (L5R version, not the original) is a story, the point of which is to tell Scorpions that they should be prepared for anything. But it also implies - again L5R version - that the Scorpion shouldn't bite off more than they can't chew. "I can swim" only works if you can actually swim. And none of the seven great clan would survive deliberately wiping out the ruling family and trying to claim the throne for themselves - the other clans would gang up on them, because no clan want to see another clan seize the throne. Even the implication he might possiby have done that got Shoju arrested and removed from power. The Scorpions will do what they need to achieve their goals, but they donkt have chronic backstabbing disorder.

An Otomo, on the other hand, might have a legitimate enough claim, and would maintain the statu wuo for the great clsns enoug, that they could pull it off.

7 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

But it does make me think-- sure, members of the Hantei join the Otomo, Seppun and sometimes Miya, but-- does swearing fealty to that family mean joining at the top of the family?

The issue is one of status disparity. The existing Otomo/Seppun/Miya Daimyo may be the head of their family, but the sibling of the Hantei is still higher status and is closer in line to the throne. If they’re not Emperor or Heir, they need a position commensurate with their royalty.

40 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

The issue is one of status disparity. The existing Otomo/Seppun/Miya Daimyo may be the head of their family, but the sibling of the Hantei is still higher status and is closer in line to the throne. If they’re not Emperor or Heir, they need a position commensurate with their royalty.

They may have high status, but they are also swearing fealty to the Daimyo (who as Otomo Daimyo is also of significant status). They can definitely expect a decent posting as a courtier and are likely to be considered senior Imperial advisors assuming their sibling doesn't seriously dislike them, but that doesn't automatically mean they will be the defacto head of the family.

True, but it also means that if they have a good relationship with their sibling the Emperor it’s very difficult for a family Daimyo to order them around like any of their other vassals. Most likely, they take the Otomo/Miya/Seppun name then are left largely alone to do their own thing as senior members of the court.

I think I would be willing to accept the idea that Jodan managed to outlive the Otomo/Seppun/Miya among his own generatlon if we were to float the idea he failed to have children until hls 50s or 60s. But that still raises the question as to how relatively young Shoju could be hls "oldest friend"

Well, it’s the year 1123, and if we’re using the Old5r date for Jodan’s birth, he was born in 1078, became Emperor in 1103 at the age of 25 and was 45 when he died.

As far as we know, his 2 closest friends were Bayushi Shoju, and Doji Satsume. If he hadn’t been killed by Miya Satoshi, Satsume is the obvious choice for Regrnt. It’s his idea, he’s Emerald Champion, and is Jodan’s friend. And a Satsume Regency has a good chance of being effective. He’d already identified the problems with Sotorii and Daisetsu, and was proactive in trying to find a solution.

On 12/27/2020 at 2:59 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

But the Scorpion are literally known for frequent and flagrant assassination,

No, they are not. They are known for blackmailing and lying. They are rumoured to use shinobi. And I mean, if any clan was known for FLAGRANT assassination, it would not have lasted 12 centuries. Sure, the clans are color coded and stereotyped for our convenience, but even the Scorpion wouldn’t have someone murdered and then bolster about that during the Winter Court...

8 hours ago, DSalazar said:

No, they are not. They are known for blackmailing and lying. They are rumoured to use shinobi. And I mean, if any clan was known for FLAGRANT assassination, it would not have lasted 12 centuries. Sure, the clans are color coded and stereotyped for our convenience, but even the Scorpion wouldn’t have someone murdered and then bolster about that during the Winter Court...

No, but you can have investigators find out that the Scorpions murdered someone, expose that fact to the public via a well-placed rumor, and everyone knows it happened despite the Scorpions' denials...but nobody can do anything about it (because the evidence isn't clear-cut and there's no confession to speak of), other than maybe retaliate in a similarly-underhanded way, possibly by using their own assassins as well.

And even if there is no such investigations, nothing stops NPCs from taking rumors as "pretty much fact". After all, for a rumor to have spread, a significant number of Rokugani citizens must believe in it.

---

A clan can quite frankly last for 12 centuries despite being known for flagrant assassination, because the costs of destroying such a clan is higher than the benefits of removing said clan. Destroying a major clan is an expensive endeavor (and may require the cooperation of other clans), and leads to a power vacuum and mayhem as the different clans seek to seize the empty territory for themselves. It also leads to a rather horrifying precedent that none of the major clans want to have set. And you also need to secure the Emperor's permission to do such a deed, otherwise you're rebelling against the Imperials by doing this.

This doesn't even get into the idea of "Mutually Assured Destruction". The Scorpion clan controls some of the Black Scrolls. I'm not sure if this is public knowledge.

• If it is public knowledge, then nobody will think about invasion...at least until they are sure the Black Scrolls are out of the reach of the Scorpions.
• If it isn't public knowledge, all the Scorpions have to do is to plant a rumor stating that they have it for some clans to think "If we attack them, they might use it against us". If they don't plant this rumor, at least some clan strategists must be thinking about desperate maneuvers the Scorpions might use against an invading force...and if the invading force is willing and able to bear the consequences.

When one consider all these unknowns, risks, and expected costs, a few assassinations here and there is no big deal. In fact, a clan known for flagrant assassination may even be useful to keep around as a valuable asset - you might befriend Scorpion diplomats and ask them to remove a troublesome foe, and then the Scorpions take the heat for it while you retain plausible deniability.

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EDIT: Reading your quote again, it seems that my disagreement with it may be based on different interpretations of the word "flagrant". To me, flagrant means "public knowledge; everyone knows that it is true". To me, that includes scenarios where everyone knows something to be true, but can't admit that it is actually true in polite company. It's like an "open secret".

But it's possible you may mean "public knowledge that is so so obvious nobody cannot deny it", in which case the Scorpions' conduct would not be flagrant since they won't publicly admit to such a deed. As long as an action is not blatant, the Scorpions can do the deed and not suffer any (official) repercussions, even if everyone else (unofficially) knows that it happened. If you mean "flagrant" in this latter sense, then yes, the Scorpions would not have done flagrant assassinations.

I mean, the Lion Clan bullies all their neighbours (which is every single clan, except theCrab)and the single reason they haven’t been eradicated because they are the “Emperor’s Army” which makes me wonder what the “Imperial Legions” are even for...

I mean, in the end, we all have to suspend a lot of disbelief to make this setting work anyway.

3 hours ago, DSalazar said:

the “Imperial Legions” are even for...

Stopping any one Clan from overtly trying to conquer another. Can’t stop border raids or squabbles over individual holdings, but they just need to be large enough to act as a deterrent.

Also, quite a number are probably going to be drawn from the Lion just based on demographics, so you have a baked in complication at deploying them against the Lion. When their leader, the Emerald Champion, is also a Lion, it’s a question of how much latitude they’re willing to give their Clan.

When the story opens, Doji Satsume’s dead, there’s no Emerald Champion, so Akodo Arasou sees the opportunity to make a play for Toshi Ranbo. Once Toturi gets the job, he’s hesitant to slap the Lion’s paw because he’s afraid of exactly what happens, the Clan turning on him and going forward total war.

The history of the Lion is likely one of warfare more or less limited by the Imperials over time. Strong Throne? The Lion rests. Weak Throne? The Lion stalks its neighbours. Unfortunately, Bayushi Kachiko replacing Kakita Ryoku as Imperial Advisor, the death of Doji Satsume and the tsunami sufficiently undermined Jodan’s reign to tilt the scales from Crane-encouraged peace to Lion-spurred war.

9 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Stopping any one Clan from overtly trying to conquer another. Can’t stop border raids or squabbles over individual holdings, but they just need to be large enough to act as a deterrent.

Also, quite a number are probably going to be drawn from the Lion just based on demographics, so you have a baked in complication at deploying them against the Lion.

Exactly my point. Taking some contrast from another setting: It would be different if the Emperor had access to His own Sardaukar with loyalty only to the Emperor/Padishah.

Having the direct Imperial Military forces being from actually the other clans, splitting their loyalties does bring a problem (probably one by design in the setting).

The Otomo, Miya and Seppun just don’t have the numbers, and Imperial Holdings aren’t going to be robust enough to support large numbers of ashigaru. The only way to have the Imperial legion be made up of all Imperials would be to convert Toshi Ranbo and Kaeru Toshi from Imperial Governorship to outright holding and start aggressively recruiting soldiers and expanding the number of Seppun samurai living in the cities, maybe by adopting the ronin to pad out the front lines.

As a general rule in the setting's history, a strong throne and a capable imperial central bureaucracy have been binned (by multiple writing staffs across the decades) because they make stories about conflict with meaningful stakes centered on the Clans- who are, ultimately, key to the brand identity in a way no other setting faction is- "harder to justify." (Scare quotes here reflect a paraphrase of what got said rather than an actual quotation).

Thus my quip elsewhere about the Imperial Families failing upward since the Kami landed on Seppun Hill.

It's not just about the Hantei, either- neither the Toturi not the Iweko dynasties in the old lore ever got to really flex their muscle relative to the Clans- they got to make varying decisions everyone had to live with, but they always had to lean on the support of clan samurai to get anything done.

2 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

The Otomo, Miya and Seppun just don’t have the numbers, and Imperial Holdings aren’t going to be robust enough to support large numbers of ashigaru. The only way to have the Imperial legion be made up of all Imperials would be to convert Toshi Ranbo and Kaeru Toshi from Imperial Governorship to outright holding and start aggressively recruiting soldiers and expanding the number of Seppun samurai living in the cities, maybe by adopting the ronin to pad out the front lines.

1 minute ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

As a general rule in the setting's history, a strong throne and a capable imperial central bureaucracy have been binned (by multiple writing staffs across the decades) because they make stories about conflict with meaningful stakes centered on the Clans- who are, ultimately, key to the brand identity in a way no other setting faction is- "harder to justify." (Scare quotes here reflect a paraphrase of what got said rather than an actual quotation).

Thus my quip elsewhere about the Imperial Families failing upward since the Kami landed on Seppun Hill.

It's not just about the Hantei, either- neither the Toturi not the Iweko dynasties in the old lore ever got to really flex their muscle relative to the Clans- they got to make varying decisions everyone had to live with, but they always had to lean on the support of clan samurai to get anything done.

Yes, the setting depends on the clans being more important than the Imperial Families story-wise. A RPG campaign doesn’t necessarily need to suffer of the same problem. And like I said, it kind of needs to be this way for the card game where the clans are constantly in a state of warfare

1 hour ago, DSalazar said:

A RPG campaign doesn’t necessarily need to suffer of the same problem.

True that! But the corollary to that is the setup in Poison River. 3 way split between the Unicorn, Lion, and Dragon. An Imperial Governor with Dragon sympathies and player characters stuck in the middle. An Imperial Magistrate party works well for poking around, or Lun and her crew can be replaced by a party of ronin. An all-Clan party is pushing for a specific faction to seize control of the city.

I guess my real issue with the way things play out is that I, if I alone, kind of want the Imperials to play out as sort of a clan of their own. Even if they initially utterly fail and lose clout, that they are still a group and generally aligned.

So it kind of bothers me to say that there was absoluely no direct relative that was trusted more than any clan.

I get that if one says that there is the Emperor and then nothing but the seven clans, that the emperor putting his trust wholly in a couple of the clans works.

But with the history of the empire-- it feels weird for any of the clans to be able to assert influence so powerfully, so easily. Set aside that cards in the last year pretty much turned "imperial" into more of a trait of the already overpowered Scorpion than a neutral thing that could one day be a minor faction alongside Mantis and Shadowland.

This is why I'm glad that Imperial Histories and Imperial Histories 2 exist and are well-regarded in the L5R fandom. If you dislike an element in the official canon(s), you can simply create "your Rokugan" with its own alternate history and design choices, and it'll just as valid as someone else's interpretation of L5R.

Of course, Imperial Histories and Imperial Histories 2 are intended as RPG sourcebooks, and by themselves, aren't useful for people who are participating in the LCG and trying to shape the current storyline. However, I do point out that there are many eras within Rokugani history that deserved to be explored (both "canonical" eras such as the Gozoku era, the Battle of the White Stag, the First Rising of Iuchiban, and the Great Famine...and "non-canonical" alternate history eras such as The Thousand Years of Darkness and Empire of the Emerald Stars ). These eras could definitely be represented by fan-made tournaments (though one might need to handwave the card names to make it work). At least some of these eras, canonical or not, would possess a meaningful "Imperial clan" that is able to take on a relevant role in the ever-shifting landscape of Rokugani politics.