1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:The undercurrent runs through pretty much everything you post.
If only my undercurrent would drag your recurrent **** posts to me out to sea.
But there you are, detritus washing up on my beach again, when you could just sail by.
F
Cant say Ill miss the guys design philosophy. Got hailed as a genius for selling us solutions to his own mistakes and its never sat right with me.
As to the future of the game, corporations usually kill and reboot an IP when the most profitable elements have been harvested, so thats likely FFGs move. They've sold every well known OT Ship except cloud cars. the other factions are drying up with little bankable IP to draw from. While we ship nerds crave increasingly obscure ships from the EU, many potential customers dont recognize or care about that stuff. The design space is filling up mechanically as well, where new ships are increasingly just a reskin of something we already have with progressively more convoluted rules. Theyve kind of written themselves into a corner, where if its not power creeped or iconic, people are less likely to buy. That gets Execs thinking 3rd edition or lose profit. and while they absolutely could and should work to keep the game growing in new directions, the corporations involved may just kill the game and relaunch it because its the easier money move. Sells us all the same X-wings and Tie fighters forever
Cuz corporate marketing is the original TLT
F x4
7 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:As to the future of the game, corporations usually kill and reboot an IP when the most profitable elements have been harvested, so thats likely FFGs move. They've sold every well known OT Ship except cloud cars. the other factions are drying up with little bankable IP to draw from. While we ship nerds crave increasingly obscure ships from the EU, many potential customers dont recognize or care about that stuff. The design space is filling up mechanically as well, where new ships are increasingly just a reskin of something we already have with progressively more convoluted rules. Theyve kind of written themselves into a corner, where if its not power creeped or iconic, people are less likely to buy. That gets Execs thinking 3rd edition or lose profit. and while they absolutely could and should work to keep the game growing in new directions, the corporations involved may just kill the game and relaunch it because its the easier money move. Sells us all the same X-wings and Tie fighters forever
Cuz corporate marketing is the original TLT
I fully agree with this statement. X-wing is heading for a reboot in the not so distant future. I just hope we get that Phoenix Cell and Systrike squadron packs before the reboot.
Edited by LUZ_TAKOn 12/11/2020 at 11:17 AM, 5050Saint said:We also need at least some continuity in the design team, otherwise we will see the mistakes repeated that Alex and Max already learned from. Max came in with new ideas in first edition (TLT) and it hindered the game, but he learned lessons from them. There is 0 guarantee that new ideas won't be TLT without a veteran to veto obvious bad stuff that have already iterated through.
Point of clarity: I didn't design Twin Laser Turret. My first work was in Wave 9 of 1E, not Wave 7.
"I'll Show You The Dark Side" was 100% on me, but I'm not to blame for TLT.
-Max
I don’t think x-wing will reboot, there’s diminishing returns on that.
I can imagine them killing it to relaunch a completely different game, like how Imp Assault died to make Legion.
20 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:I don’t think x-wing will reboot, there’s diminishing returns on that.
I can imagine them killing it to relaunch a completely different game, like how Imp Assault died to make Legion.
I agree on the diminishing returns. As much as I love the game, if a 3rd edition came out this quick, even I would have to question whether I want to changeover. I need at least 2 more years.
Relaunching seems a bad choice to me though, as X-wing is regularly in the top 5 selling miniatures games (although 2020 is going to weird for sales for all industries). Listening to Team Covenant talk about the X-Wing transfer, they were saying that starting up a new game is a harder sell to a producer than just continuing a game. AMG would probably have to intentionally tank X-wing to start their own.
X Wing 3.0 will happen.
As has been said, the well of new ships will dry up (at least in the short term a stherr is an awful lot of new star wars media now schedul3d by our Disney overlords), and ace/scenario cardboard packs will only go so far.
They can fiddle with Hyperpace and play with points but eventually, the game will have become to complex, and various ships/pilots/upgrades will have become impossible to balance.
So 3.0 comes along with some fresh new ideas, hey red and purple actions + adjustable points have done wonders for the game in my opinion. New turret rules are much appreciated etcetera etcetera...
3.0 is not needed now, nor should it be needed within the next 2 years, but maybe in 2023 it would be not only justifiable but also advisable for game health, in a years time i hope AMG start playtesting some more innovative ideas, multiple dice types rather than just standard attack or defense, could be great to help differentiate ships that often feel very similar, but maybe thats too complex i jave no experience with that.
Current NPE abilites could be fixed, and perhaps a new app based system to limit ships, upgrades, rather than setting it in stone on thr card would be useful.
Maybe they could evolve the dials to include more manuevers (faster or more variety than straight, 45' bank, 90' turn), that again could help ships feel more true to their canon counterparts and ad so much more texture to the game, without blowing anyones brain.
TLDR
3.0 is coming, its a way off, it will probably be good
P.S. As long as AMG dont gauge us on conversion kits, and do a fairly comprehensive/balanced faction specific kits it shouod be fine, then they can release mainly cardboard kits plus new ships and models as and when needed.
On 12/13/2020 at 11:12 AM, Stay OT Leader said:Imp Assault died to make Legion.
I don't know why people keep saying this. It's nothing like true.
Imperial Assault was beating a dead horse for a long time. Skirmish had been broken since wave 1 and was never fixed. They made some vague patches shortly before retiring the game, but they didn't address most of the fundamental issues.
Legion isn't anything like Imperial Assault. Imperial Assault is a cooperative dungeon crawl. Legion is a 2-player battle. IA Skirmish was always an afterthought. Legion is a dedicated battlefield game, not a dungeon crawl campaign.
Imperial Assault was already going into retirement when Legion appeared on the scene. Pretty sure the only sense in which it was a "replacement" was that they needed another Star Wars line since one was being retired.
I don't hate you but sometimes you have the worst of takes.
Another alternative:
On 12/12/2020 at 6:39 AM, Sciencius said:So how many Brooks are there?!? Ahh now I see how this could have happened.
Transcript from Asmodee top-boss-meeting:
Boss 1: "We need to let someone go, those loosers at Atomic only want two of our old guys"
Boss 2: "Who do we have?"
Boss 3: "What about this Brooks? or is it Brooke guy"?
Boss 2: "Who is he?"
Boss 3: "Honestly I cant tell one from the other, not sure which part of the X-wing game he is working on.."
Boss 1: "Which one?"
Boss 2: "You talking about Brooks or Brooke here"?
Boss 3: "No! which faction of the game! you know Star wars, there is...ahem the Rebels... and... and the Mandalorian he is there too! My kids love that show!"
Boss 1: "Enough! I hate toys in a fantasy world! I need to go back to manage my stock portfolio, you know IMPORTANT STUFF! Alright just fire Brooks then".
Boss 2: "Which one now? Hold it, let me look it up in the portfolio...There I have it. There is a Max Brooke, a Frank Brooks and a Brooks Flugaure Levitt."
Boss 1:" What a mess. But, now as you say it. Excellent suggestion. Let's fire all of them, saves us a lot."
3 hours ago, Scum4Life said:X Wing 3.0 will happen.
As has been said, the well of new ships will dry up (at least in the short term a stherr is an awful lot of new star wars media now schedul3d by our Disney overlords), and ace/scenario cardboard packs will only go so far.
They can fiddle with Hyperpace and play with points but eventually, the game will have become to complex, and various ships/pilots/upgrades will have become impossible to balance.
So 3.0 comes along with some fresh new ideas, hey red and purple actions + adjustable points have done wonders for the game in my opinion. New turret rules are much appreciated etcetera etcetera...
3.0 is not needed now, nor should it be needed within the next 2 years, but maybe in 2023 it would be not only justifiable but also advisable for game health, in a years time i hope AMG start playtesting some more innovative ideas, multiple dice types rather than just standard attack or defense, could be great to help differentiate ships that often feel very similar, but maybe thats too complex i jave no experience with that.
Current NPE abilites could be fixed, and perhaps a new app based system to limit ships, upgrades, rather than setting it in stone on thr card would be useful.
Maybe they could evolve the dials to include more manuevers (faster or more variety than straight, 45' bank, 90' turn), that again could help ships feel more true to their canon counterparts and ad so much more texture to the game, without blowing anyones brain.
TLDR
3.0 is coming, its a way off, it will probably be good
P.S. As long as AMG dont gauge us on conversion kits, and do a fairly comprehensive/balanced faction specific kits it shouod be fine, then they can release mainly cardboard kits plus new ships and models as and when needed.
I agree that AMG MUST take time for people to get more mileage from 2.0.
And a lot of people have their ships. Doing a 3.0 would be suicidal at this point.
I think there are rule changes that can happen without having to call it 3.0. AMG may be more open to change card texts also. I love where the game is for a lot of things. Maybe a few adjustments would make the game even better
On 12/13/2020 at 10:56 AM, Stormshrug said:Point of clarity: I didn't design Twin Laser Turret. My first work was in Wave 9 of 1E, not Wave 7.
"I'll Show You The Dark Side" was 100% on me, but I'm not to blame for TLT.
-Max
I'll admit my "knowledge" of that was hearsay. My bad for perpetuating it.
But the point still stands, I'd rather like some veterans like yourself if you really are Max, I wouldn't put it past folks to create an alt and claim your name. still working on the game to be able to veto missteps that have already came before.
Also, thanks for all the effort and creativity put into the game. Best of luck in your future endeavors!
3 hours ago, Scum4Life said:As has been said, the well of new ships will dry up (at least in the short term a stherr is an awful lot of new star wars media now schedul3d by our Disney overlords), and ace/scenario cardboard packs will only go so far.
There’s still some solid canon options. We have multiple ships from Mandalorian, at minimum for Scum and quite honestly the empire as well in the form of the Folding wing Tie. There’s still the rerelease of some old canon and iconic ships to be done eventually (bomber, lambda, Uwing, etc). For prequels, we still have several republic and Seppie options left to be explored without even getting into the esoteric stuff.
Also - do not underestimate the power of extra cardboard. New pilots and new game formats will make this game last a long time, easily long enough to last until the deluge of new content from all the upcoming works Disney announced hits. Campaign boxes or even an epic battles 2 with more scenarios would help a long way.
That said, I really hope we get the squadron packs that are hinted at before any 3.0 nonsense. And Razor crest.
I have no plans of moving to 3.0, particularly if they move too fast.
13 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:There’s still some solid canon options. We have multiple ships from Mandalorian, at minimum for Scum and quite honestly the empire as well in the form of the Folding wing Tie. There’s still the rerelease of some old canon and iconic ships to be done eventually (bomber, lambda, Uwing, etc). For prequels, we still have several republic and Seppie options left to be explored without even getting into the esoteric stuff.
Also - do not underestimate the power of extra cardboard. New pilots and new game formats will make this game last a long time, easily long enough to last until the deluge of new content from all the upcoming works Disney announced hits. Campaign boxes or even an epic battles 2 with more scenarios would help a long way.
That said, I really hope we get the squadron packs that are hinted at before any 3.0 nonsense. And Razor crest.
I have no plans of moving to 3.0, particularly if they move too fast.
I think we're in agreement here. We have "currently" got a limited pool of canon ships, that is set to grow over the next 2-3 years with all this new content - High Republic Faction + Villanous counter part? - additional ships for Prequel era from Bad batch, much needed ships for OG era factions from Andor, and Rogue Squadron, sequel Era ships from Ahsohka and Mandalorian.. its all gravy baby. But! We are almost over with Mando season 2 and still not even a proper teaser article for the Razorcrest (we got a brief mention in an interview a while ago) but that shows us how long it takes for ships to go from shows to table.
So we have to first wait for the Mouse to release these shows, then wait for AMG to turn the probable ships into cool models and release them. 2-4 years, lets call it 3.
So we have a good 2 years to pad out with the last few ships and cardboard only updates, very doable.
Especially as FFG clearly had pipeline for the next 3-6 months already.
Edited by Scum4LifeI think we're all skipping a little far ahead here aren't we? While a 3rd edition would definitely be inevitable, don't y'all think that a 2. 5 is the more obvious and logical next step?
If I had a voice in the design, I'd use some future 2.x expansions a 2.5 edit to lay the ground work for 3rd, in much the same way that some of 2.0 was based on 1.0-5 work (eg mobile turret, configs)
If you could make an 2. expansion that introduced a 4-bank maneuver as a ship feature, you can then fold that into the basis of 3rd. If you can make an campaign box that introduced a new die for a game mode, then roll that into 3rd.
And you can fix some major pains before going to a 3 with a 2.5. Like a new version of the Force mechanic would buy you a lot of life time for 2. but would be a major enough change to fit in a .5 Y'know?
1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:I think we're all skipping a little far ahead here aren't we? While a 3rd edition would definitely be inevitable, don't y'all think that a 2. 5 is the more obvious and logical next step?
If I had a voice in the design, I'd use some future 2.x expansions a 2.5 edit to lay the ground work for 3rd, in much the same way that some of 2.0 was based on 1.0-5 work (eg mobile turret, configs)
If you could make an 2. expansion that introduced a 4-bank maneuver as a ship feature, you can then fold that into the basis of 3rd. If you can make an campaign box that introduced a new die for a game mode, then roll that into 3rd.
And you can fix some major pains before going to a 3 with a 2.5. Like a new version of the Force mechanic would buy you a lot of life time for 2. but would be a major enough change to fit in a .5 Y'know?
I suspect you’re thinking small.
They didn’t punt the game over to AMG for the sake of a 4-bank template. I think we are going to see wholesale changes.
2 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:I suspect you’re thinking small.
They didn’t punt the game over to AMG for the sake of a 4-bank template. I think we are going to see wholesale changes.
How far can the changes to the game go without destroying its original appeal? If, for example, we do away with dials and templates and switch to traditional wargaming movement, i wouldn't like the game anymore (extreme example). They can change some of the design points, change the old wave release cycle into something else, but when it comes to the game itself, i doubt too much will change - in fear of killing what made it fun in the first place.
I'd be interested in 3xperimentation with new manuver types, that give you and ion or strain or deplete.
A move that ionised a ship would be great on a medium or large base as it could pull it off once or twice before its systems are overwhelmed.
I think what we'll see well before any big sorts of changes to X-wing is some sort of game with bigger than Legion scale but otherwise unpainted and unassembled Star Wars models. Something on the lines of Crisis Protocol but Star Wars. Imperial Assault skirmish mode without the board.
4 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:I suspect you’re thinking small.
They didn’t punt the game over to AMG for the sake of a 4-bank template. I think we are going to see wholesale changes.
I don't believe they sent all the games over for design reasons in the first place. If they had sent one, maybe, but all of them at the same time? Had to be something else. And I had dice included in there anyway, which would be a huge change.
Edited by ForceSensitive5 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:I suspect you’re thinking small.
They didn’t punt the game over to AMG for the sake of a 4-bank template. I think we are going to see wholesale changes.
I agree, but I think the wholesale changes are NOT going to be about the rules. It's going to be about how the game is approached as a player experience.
This is what they are doing for Crisis Protocol. I suspect we will see this happen for XWM:
When we first began work on Marvel: Crisis Protocol , we knew we wanted to create a game that went far beyond just the core standard play experience. With so many awesome stories and events within the Marvel Universe, it was part of our mission to ensure that players had numerous opportunities for fun and engaging gameplay based on the core foundation laid out in the Crisis Protocol Core Set.
Today, we are releasing two new Crisis Protocol Game Formats, Battle Realms, and Collector, each of which alters how players select their Rosters and Squads for Crisis Protocol games. With these new options being added and plenty more exciting things on the way, we wanted to take a moment and take a deeper look into how we are defining the many exciting options players have when coming together to play Marvel Crisis Protocol . We hope that not only will this provide an exciting preview of what we have in store for everyone; it will also help players be able to quickly know what to expect from an Organized play event or game night by providing universal terminology for the many ways to play.
The base game is the standard Marvel: Crisis Protocol experience. The base game represents the most common play experience for the vast majority of players and serves as the core play experience for everything else on this list.
Following the Base Game are Game Modes. Game modes are new ways to experience Marvel: Crisis Protocol . Game Modes modify the base gameplay experience in various ways, from changing the number of players, altering the standard victory conditions, introducing new character rules specific to a game mode, or plenty more. Game modes are designed to add variety and value to players' collections by offering players multiple ways to engage with Marvel: Crisis Protocol . If you have participated in this year's Vibranium Heist Event Kit or played one of the several Ultimate Encounters released this year, you have experience with how Game Modes change the Base Game experience.
Examples of Game Modes include Ultimate Encounters, which pit the squads of a team of players against an incredibly powerful cosmic threat controlled by a third player, Narrative Missions, which feature unique game rules to better capture a specific event in the Marvel Universe, Campaigns where players create their own spanning narrative among numerous games, Multi-Player Missions which allow multiple players to battle against one another, and Co-Op Missions where players team up to fight against an enemy A.I.
New to the community are Formats, of which two are being released alongside this article. Formats alter the Roster and Squad building experience of Crisis Protocol , but, unlike Game Modes, do not alter the base game's actual play experience or rules. Formats offer new strategic challenges/puzzles to how players approach creating their Rosters before a game begins. Formats are further divided into two types: Arena and Party types.
Arena Formats are designed as options for enhancing/altering the standard play experience in both Crisis Day Events and, if both players agree, standard one-off games of Crisis Protocol during a game night at their LGS, game club, home, etc. Arena Formats typically require each player to bring an expanded or alternate roster to the game compared to the standard roster rules for Crisis Protocol . The first Arena Format is our new Battle Realm Format , which features a pick and ban phase where both players make choices that define the characters and tactic cards their opponent will have access to for the game.
Party Formats are designed for player groups of close friends or family interested in playing a format that requires a much greater effort of coordination and organization among the players. Thus, Party formats are not for use in Crisis Day Events or other organized events where players from different communities come together to celebrate the fun and enjoyment of Crisis Protocol . Instead, these are formats designed for tight-knit groups to come together and have a fun day of Crisis Protocol gaming among their close friends. The first of our Party Formats is the Collector Format , where players draft characters from pre-built pods (i.e., boosters) to assemble their final rosters for play.
Edited by Darth Meanie21 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:I agree, but I think the wholesale changes are NOT going to be about the rules. It's going to be about how the game is approached as a player experience.
This is what they are doing for Crisis Protocol. I suspect we will see this happen for XWM:
If they can accomplish that for x-wing without a 3rd edition, I will be a very very happy player.
Honestly, moving things towards more formats and casual gaming may be a good thing for XWM. Can keep selling product without the standard power gamer requirements to move product.
Might actually get Uglies in as playable in standard if we're lucky.
Base "ship" + 2-3 "configurations" to flesh out what the heck is being flown. I'm probably dreaming though.
On 12/11/2020 at 3:46 PM, Echoseven said:So, this leaves Frank Brooks and Brooks Flugaur Leavitt for possible designers that may be transition over to AMG...
...Or are they both gone as well...?
Brooks was let got months ago, shortly before adepticon. I don't think they've moved onto anything else yet. Frank is the only person I haven't heard anything on. I had the opportunity to talk to him at worlds and he said he was still with ffg but not working on x-wing.
I was immensely sad to hear the news about Max. Max had wonderful insight into both the game and community. He was my favorite dev and the game is dramatically more fun because of him.