On the discussion of Scouts in the Deathwatch, the scout character featured in Dawn of War 2, Cyrus, is noted to have served in the Deathwatch. Not only that, but it's stated that Cyrus served in the orginzation for nearly two centuries before deciding to return to the Blood Ravens so that he could bring back all of the knowledge that he learned to his chapter. He was also noted to have been a veteran of a some campaign against the Tyranids during his time in the Deathwatch, though I don't remember if the opperation was successful or not.

Much Like Tellion and Naaman, Cyrus is a full grown space marine who chooses to be a scout and wear the armor, opting to train the neophytes in the ways of battle in a (mostly) standard codex chapter. As has been remarked by Davian Thule, "Cyrus is no fool. There is a reason he chooses to remain a Scout Sergeant. In a few centuries there will not be a Blood Raven left who hasn't been molded by this thinking."

So, no, I don't think the idea of having Scouts seconded to the Deathwatch is all that weird.

I think another part to it all is "how would a scout function with the deathwatch?" The simple answer is that a scout complements a Kill team very well, doing many of the same things as a kill team, while doing some of them better. A Kill Team would live or die by the information it can gather about its enemy and a scout would certainly do that better than a power armored marine. Additionally "needle weapons are the choice weapon of the Ordo Xenos" which sure sounds like needle sniper rifles would hold some prominents.

I actually think scouts fit with the way Deathwatch operate alot better than jump-pack assault marines, there is nothing quiet and no surprise when it comes to a jump-pack. It also seems like a lot of dead weight... whats the marine going to do when they go inside.

I have to agree with you in some ways. Certainly the Assault marine seems less tactically viable in all scenarios, but that's the thing about a member of the Deathwatch: flexibility would have to be a key. If the assault marine is capable of cultivating a secondary skill set that doesn't entirely rely on his jump pack then he should do fine. The scout, likewise, would certainly have to be capable of donning heavier armor and rocking and rolling with a bolter when called.

As to what purpose the scout serves, I can think of at least one scenario where I would want someone trained as a scout. Not for information gathering, however. Picture if you will a Tau encampment. The kill team is already aware, to some degree, of the forces present and knows that they're likely outclassed. I'm thinking several crisis suit teams, perhaps even broadsides and hammerheads. They need to drive this force from the planet or at least weaken them in time for the arrival of elements of the crusade and what they know is that there is an Ethereal present. This presents an incredibly potent tactical target as the loss of this leader will crush the morale of the enemy and throw their forces into disarray. Certainly they could attempt a frontal assault but it would be incredibly dangerous. On the other hand, a properly trained scout wielding a sniper rifle could move to an advantageous position and eliminate the target with out too much combat while the rest of the team could arrange a diversionary coordinated strike to cover his escape.

Mind you, in the scenario above I'm not implying a tactical marine couldn't do the job. In fact, if M40 targeters and stalker bolt shells are available as wargear they probably a could. A scout who has dedicated himself to the sniper rifle, inflitration, and field craft, however might be the better choice.

a devastator with a sniper rifle and some stealth skills basically?

By no way is this too far fetched, the scout is a viable option if for the fun of it. I woudl like better the dreadnought personaly.

A scout really doesn't have too many differences going on, its 90% equipment differences and 10% different combinations of the same skills already available to different marines. I imagine they'd also have the ability to do the whole booby trapping thing.

Brigandier said:

It doesn't say in DoW2 that Cyrus was a scout when he served in Deathwatch though.

Weather DW employs fully trained SM in scout carapace remains to be seen. Two chapters (as far as I know) don't have recruit scouts, Space Wolves and Black Templars. Space Wolves still have scouts, after a fasion, BT don't seem to need them.

Assault Marines can be loaded up with as much arsenal as they need, melta guns, flamers, plasma guns. Whether or not they are more flexible than a Devastator depends entirely on the terrain, if you are on a flat plane with views for miles the devastator is going to be far better, in a tight city scape a jump pack is going to rule.

I think the problem that is trying to incorporate a squad that includes both an Assault Marine and a Devastator, but even then assuming there are numerous targets and groups there's something for everyone to do.

Deathwatch scouts are really uncharted territory, they could always come up with something "special" for them.

Blood Angels and Dark Angels utilize more veteraned marines as scouts relative to more codex adherent chapters. The Ravenguard are implied to as well, though ther use has less basis to say that definitively as its more an inference from the hightend level of dependency. If scouts were introduced into DW Ravenguard would be a good chapter to do in parallel to that.

Brigandier said:

You mean the same game in which the Assault Marine veteran sergeant refers to life as an adult ganger in a hive city? Remind me which chapters have the technology to recruit fully grown adult males?

Sorry but THQ are rubbish at sticking to canon so in my mind at least, Dow and Dow are less than reliable.

I don't recall the game ever mention he was an adult hive ganger. He was probably recruited as a juve into the Blood Ravens. In fact I'm pretty sure it mentions something about adolesence for that time period and how he is young and impetuous for a full battle brother.

Kasatka said:

Actually, there are some other GW materials to support that possibility. It is, however, very rarely done, as the chances of successful zygote implantation and growth become almost nil after puberty. However, given that the Blood Ravens have also been noted as being significantly understrength in more than one source, it has been done on occasion. Such candidates are even more intensely observed by the Apothecarium for any signs of genetic deviance, as well.

As to Cyrus, a Veteran Scout Sergeant , yeah, he did time in the Deathwatch . Your distaste notwithstanding, there are other examples of viable Scouts entering the service of the Deathwatch , not the least of which would be Wolf Scouts , who are full battle-brothers and not neophyte recruits.

And THQ does a much better job of sticking to the background materials then some of the authors who write for the setting.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Again though, i've got to point out that it says Cyrus is a scout Sergeant to teach newbie Blood Ravens what he learnt in Deathwatch. It's never said that he was a Scout while he was in Deathwatch.

I'm not saying that Deathwatch doesn't have experienced scouts either, like Wolf Scouts minus the emotional baggage.

All Space Marines start off with Concealment and Silent Move skills, and can gain more of them with time, and can swap their Power Armour for Scout Armour. Because of that, there is no "Scout" career, because there is no need for one. Every Space Marine has had Scout training to some extent.

Brother Praetus said:

If I remember correctly the Black Templars accept members that would be "too old" by other chapters standards. From what I remember was that a guardsmen, who is of sufficient religious zeal and significantly honored in battle can be awarded by a regimental priest a special writ of travel to go to one of the many worlds where the Black Templar maintain training Keeps... there he undergoes a trial to prove himself worthy. If he survives they implant organs. In the the vague recollection I have... the fluff had the guardsmen dropped on the edge of a desert, where the Templar Keep was located at the center of it; the trial was like a 1000 mile hike to the Keep, without provisions.

MILLANDSON said:

Sounds like this solved the "scout issue".

It only makes sense that this would be the case since all Space Marines (with perhaps the exception of Librarians) would undergo the normal training regime of any other Space Marine (which would include being a scout).

Now I wonder : would Imperial Fists receive a bonus to their Concealment rolls ? After all, they learned how to sneak in bright yellow armor...

Just imagine if marines were normal sized how stealthy they'd be. At 7-8ft tall, if they can still be stealthy they have mad skills.

aka_mythos said:

If they aren't in their armour, they are counted as being normal size, so it wouldn't make a difference. It's only when in Power Armour that they have a -10 modifier to Silent Move or Concealment checks.

Actually, Scout Armour gives you a +10 to these tests

A Marine is "normal sized" out of their armour?

With that tongue-in-cheek comment aside, it does remind one that there is a difference between concealment and the ability to successfully shadow someone in a crowd or regularly-sized people.

Kage

MILLANDSON said:

But that would make them about the same size as human when not in PA, they supposed to be 9.5 feet tall (citation needed).

Do they also have -30 for using PA like in DH? We may not even know untill DW comes out as that's probably something they'd cut from the demo, unless you know something Millandson.

I do remember that there's no full marines that have stealthy abilities in TT, except for some special characters and Chaos Chosen, maybe Chaos Power Amour doesn't have penalties to stealth.

Kage2020 said:

Remarkable I would imagine it would be called (as the reverse of 'Unremarkable').

Face Eater said:

That would be 8' in armour, depending on who you believe, and a tad smaller than that out of the armour.

Face Eater said:

Given that he's got his hands on the book, I think that it is pretty much a given that he knows something that the majority of us are not privileged to know yet.

Kage

Face Eater said:

They're actually around 8 foot tall in armour, about 7 foot tall out of it. And given that the "normal" size ranges from normal human to Ork, yes, Space Marines out of their armour are considered "normal" size.

In their armour, they get a -10 modifier to Concealment and Move Silently tests. However, due to the Black Carapace, whilst they are Hulking size in their armour, opponents do not gain the +10 to hit modifier when attacking them.

And yes, there are no full marines that have stealthy abilities in TT, but that's because the TT has to be simplified. Given that the vast majority of Space Marines go through Scout training, it's obvious all of them would have some training in stealth. All Space Marines in Deathwatch also have the ability to requisition Scout Armour before a mission too, if they want it, which gives a +10 modifier to all Silent Move and Concealment tests.

And as Kage said, I already have the book, it arrived on Tuesday, and Ross Watson (after I e-mailed him to check) said I wasn't held by an NDA because it was a proper official copy of the game, and not a playtest version.

Remember, Astartes can vary in size just as much as normal people. There are short Astartes and Primarch sized Astartes, with some of the Legion/Chapters running particularly large.

For example Alpha Legion is noted as running particularly large, by gene seed or further manipulation isn’t specified. They are so consistently large that the majority of them can pass for their Primarch(s) in and out of armor, after facial reconstruction of course.

Millandson, is there a random height chart included in the creation rules?

If not, I would probably go with base 7’ + (2d10) inches for random height. As far as armor, I would add 6-8 inches in height with Power Armor, and 10-12 inches in Terminator Armor.

For random weight I would place them at a base of about 450 + ([natural SB + natural TB] x 25) in pounds.

I prefer a larger Astartes myself.

Alpha Legion also has the Terminators that are the stealthy infiltrators instead of a normal scout.. We may get some uber stealth Tactical Dreadnaught Armor in Rites of Battle.

Something else to note:

During WW2, the Germans would regularly hide their Panzers and Tiger Tanks in the boccage... which is basically a really tall / thick bush. There they would wait and ambush allied vehicles and infantry platoons.

Now, if a 55 ton tank (69 for the King Tiger) could hide successfully and pull off ambushes... and they were TANKS, I can easily imagine a 7-8 foot tall man in thick armor doing the same.

Just saying.

The Alpha Legion's Primarchs were also very short compaired to their brothers. Not a whole lot larger then a "normal" astartes. But yeah, they're not all exactly 7 foot.