Kasatka said:

I didn't say they were better. I was simply disagreeing with the statement that they aren't "near as awesome".

I apologise if my meaning was ambiguous. I was referring to the fact that in all of the fiction, Crusade era marines seem more powerful than their progeny. Untill Games Workshop decide to publish a Heresy lists army book (which they totally should!) we won't know for sure just how much of an advantage this would boil down to mechanically.

Anyhoo - this topic appears to have derailed a bit so let's try and get it back on track.

Personally i'm fine with there not being a Chaplain career per se - just have it as an elite advance or alternate rank in a later source book that will boil down to a marine spending som XP to get some faith powers and lores, plus awesome oratory talents.

Kasatka said:

What fiction are you referring to? Reading the Horus Heresy novels I never came away with that impression.

Atheosis said:

Nor did I, I'm not sure where this idea come from.

Same. Indeed from what my friends tell me (who read about "modern" space marines), a number of those books make out current space marines to be far more badass then the HH series makes the old marines. I remember several instances of Space Marines getting taken out by autoguns, ork slugga & choppas, artillery, etc. On the other side you have a single Iron Snake (I think it was), who takes out a whole dark eldar attack by himself.

And strange. I've read the same books as, presumably everyone else, and there are references (which escape me at the moment) to the relative degradation of Marines (not just Soul Hunter ). They might be subject to observer bias but, well, that's a common phenomenon even when it comes down to the suggestion that "modern" Marines are more "badass" than their ancient counterparts.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

And the Horus Heresy argument is based on one thought by an individual who doesn't really know about that stuff, long before the first Space Marines reached their "retirement age" (oldest are maybe 300 years old).

I personally feel that certain specified degredations aside (some chapters losing certain implants, and flaws like the Blood Angels' and Space Wolves' becoming more serious) Space Marines of the 1st founding are no better or worse than "current" Space Marines. Frankly the way they are presented in the Horus Heresy series suggests they were worse than current Marines (they die in droves to... well some unimpressive stuff), and 41st M statements about them being better could just be put down to Imperial reverance of all things long past.

What may be better in the Legions may be the creation of the Marines, meaning more survive the process of implantations etc.

Kage2020 said:

It is mentioned in the Ultramarines Omnibus that other Chapters geneseed has become more mutated over time to the point that not all of the implanted organs function or function in the same manner as they were originally designed. The Ultramarines ( and 3-4 other chapters, can't remember which) kept their geneseed pure over the millennium so all of their implants function in the proper way.

The sheer fact that other chapters geneseed has mutated and degraded to the point where some of their implants simply don't function would seem to me that they are inferior to Great Crusade era marines.

That's why there's a 5% tithe of the Geneseed to Mars, so the Genetors can varify the functionality of all the organs within parameters. I do remember hearing about a couple of the later founding chapters haveing 1 of the organs missing, but its a) rare, b) more commonly assosiated with shifts in the organs functions, which are generatly reflective in shifts in the focus of the original primarch's traits.

But to be fair for comparisons, we should be taking a Heresy era Ultramarine and comparing it to a Born-yesterday Ultramarine. And when you do that, they don't seem all that different.

Surely it is a staple of all scifi and fantasy that everything in the past was some more powerful, resplendent, awesome and epic. And most importantly is now unobtainable...

With regards to the mutation of the geneseed—and the glitches with regards to the tithe to the Adeptus Mechanicu s —that seems to be in part it, though it is possible to infer that it is more this is indeed the "base minimum" interpretation. That is, the whole process of zygote manufacture was, as the 'fluff' states, a last-ditch affair. That it might have been inherently unstable without the blood of the primogeniture/Primarch.

With that said, since I'm suffering from 40k burnout at the moment I'm not inclined to be more rigorous in the argument, so always feel free to ignore.

Court Jester said:

And a cliche of the 40k universe in particular. Almost everything is based on Golden Ageism, with some races even having almost exactly the same story just with slightly different "actors."

borthan said >>>

Not functionally unaging even. By 500 most Space Marines (of those few that survise that long) have aged to such a great extent they have retired from active duties (2nd edition Ultramarines codex). The Blood Angels and some rare individuals in other Chapters serve past that, but Space Marines both age and are mortal.

Please note that I say "functionally unaging" to distinguish from the incorrect use of the term "immortal." Also, note that "immortality" comment is predicated upon information in the Horus Heresy novels and, as elsewhere, I personally have Marines as both ageing and mortal. That I offer up the possibility that earlier generation Marines might have increased longevity, that it might be exclusively the result of mutation of the geneseed/zygotes, or that the first generation itself (defined as directly interacting with the Primarch) might be unaging is just incorporating and representing the wide-spread views of the community as well as my own (which is posted elsewhere on this very forum).

borithan said >>>

And the Horus Heresy argument is based on one thought by an individual who doesn't really know about that stuff, long before the first Space Marines reached their "retirement age" (oldest are maybe 300 years old).

Pespective and bias is, of course, the latitude through which most interpretation of the 40k universe moves...

borithan said >>>

Frankly the way they are presented in the Horus Heresy series suggests they were worse than current Marines (they die in droves to... well some unimpressive stuff), and 41st M statements about them being better could just be put down to Imperial reverance of all things long past.

As above. The counter argument is, of course, equally applicable.

borithan said >>>

What may be better in the Legions may be the creation of the Marines, meaning more survive the process of implantations etc.

That, for me, is a truth and pretty much inferred from statements about the improvement in the process when the Primarchs are brought on board. This is also another point at which the differentiation between the Horus Heresy Marines, or at least the first generation (but not pre-Primarch), can be argued. Such is the way of the 40k 'fluff' (or background, if you prefer).

Kage

So far we have a pretty set list with:

Tactical, Devestator, Assault, Librarian, Apothecary, Techmarine

In future expansions I think there is room for a Scout, whether he's in carapace or power armor, there is enough fluff to support the sergeants of space marine scout squads being veterans of a high enough skill as to be used by the death watch. In 40k there have been two scout characters, Telion and Naaman, who by all accounts should be 1st company marines but instead chose to stay in the 10th to train the newly inducted. Those are the sort of characters you'd play with this career.

Beyond that I think we'll just see advanced careers that are unique to chapters, like wolf guard or blood priest, or tyrannic war veteran, or iron fathers.

Chaplain would be nice but I think it flies in the face of the "deathwatch" concept. No space marine chapter would want to send it best to an organization where they'd have to fear their battle brother being proslatized or otherwise "corrupted." The only way I could see it ever work is if FFG created a career that is effectively Chaplain "lite;" a chaplain only of the cult of the emperor and nothing else, none of the chapter specific bagage that might cause problems for a team with strongly dissimilar views.

I think there is an interesting "in" for some other careers or just fluff. What happens if a marine decides to remain permenantly with the Deathwatch or by actions beyond his control his chapter is whiped out while he is on tour with the Deathwatch? I would assume this would be an often enough occurance that the marine might find a new permenant home, opening them up to new ranks and career choices.

From every source i've ever read, the marines actively serving in the Deatchwatch are on a temporary secondment, albeit of indeterminate length. Usually it would be on a campaign basis, so anything from months to decades, but still no permanent members. As with any other chapter there are still serfs and adjutants though, and they could permanent.

I realize I'm talking about the exception and not the rule. The simple fact is whenever a broad sweeping statement is made about anything it should be taken as a statement representing a generality unless their is a stronger emphasis made to drive home its deffinitive nature. The GW fluff says, "no sister of battle has ever fallen to Chaos"... and yet there is GW fluff that mention that it does occaisonally happen.

The Deathwatch is made up of member who are loaned to it by a number of chapters, but what if a chapter just never recalls the marine. We're talking about Marines that can live 10,000 years and a galaxy where a marine chapter could take its Fortress monestarious into the warp and not be seen for hundreds of years or ever again. To say no marine has found himself chapter-less and decided to stay with the Deathwatch is to broad sweeping to believe. When an entire chapter is lost and there is a member of that chapter fighting with the Deathwatch at the time, what becomes of him? There is beauracratic aspect without a chapter master to recall him, he is effectively on Deathwatch duty till he dies. I guess I'm splitting hairs, but there is an aspect to it that all the reasons, like chapter going missing or chapter being wiped out, that while the marine may not be "permenantly" a member of the Deathwatch he may be effectively a permenant member in all but name.

I'm not claiming that this is how it is or should be, I was just proposing this loop hole in the fluff could be used by GW or FFG as a way for more advanced carreer paths.

What I want to know, which I haven' read in the fluff anywhere, is what happens to a marine that is too badly hurt to continue serving the Deathwatch while he is temporarily assigned to them?

I their home chapter, they would either receive the Emperor's Mercy OR be entombed in a Dreadnought.

Are there marines that serve the Deathwatch that become entombed in Dreadnoughts and still serve the Ordos?

From looking at the stats for that genestealer Broodlord...it would not take long for the entire team to be interred in dreadnoughts.

SpawnoChaos said:

Based off of my gut interpretations of the fluff and the SM's inspirations (Starship Troopers deals with this subject directly) I'd think any mortal casualties get sent back to their chapter brothers. Beyond the sentimental aspects, they do need to harvest those gene seeds.

As far as Scouts, Chaplains, and Terminators go - I would think the last two would fall within the purview of the game. Scouts, however, are almost never full SMs. In most chapters, they are SMs in training, in various stages of their implantations and training. That's the opposite of what Deathwatch wants. Just like how a modern multinational military unit will experienced men from the Rangers, Seals, Marines, SAS, etc. - not random PFCs fresh out of boot. I could see a Space Wolf Scout in the Deathwatch - but that's the sole exception. So, not really core book material.

Soyokaze said:

Well, Veteran Scout Sergeants of the 10th Companies such as Tellion or Naaman are full grown Astartes, who just happen to train the neophytes, wear scout armour and are involved in stealth operations. And novella Assault on Black Reach features moment, where whole Tactical Squad of the Ultramarines exchange their Power Armour for Scout Armour for the duration of covert search operation.

And those veteran scouts are exactly the type of marines the Deathwatch would want. A veteran scout sergeant is probably more seasoned than a basic 1st company marine. Think about real life Marines what type of Marine ends up becoming a drill instructor or trainer.

Soyokaze said:

GW has never really addressed the full battlefield capabilities of the Deathwatch, in army form. That said dreadnoughts do fit their modus operandi and re deployed the same way, unlike a Landraider. So I don't think its to hard to imagine they'd want dreanoughts, if they didn't have them. Space Marine chapters that lend marines to the Deathwatch get different war materiel in exchange, so what do they get loaning a dreadnought?

Or what if a deathwatch marine, after entombment, continues his tour of duty in dreadnought form. The Deathwatch get access to alot of special equipment, it doesn't seem to far fetched that in their armory behind the array of collected alien weapon, around the corner and just past the stack of spare bolters is one or two dreanoughts. Compared to some of the alien weapons a dreadnought is probably much more mundane.

Its not necessarily something that "needs" to be addressed but would make for a fun way to deal with a player dying close to the end of a campaign.

Howdy!

We have a player in our game that is playing a Space Wolf that is working to earn the title of Scout when he returns to his Chapter...ie Space Wolves. Remember that Space Wolf based chapter have junior members start as power armor wearing Blood Claws and progress to be Gray Hunters and then if they are called by the "Lone Wolf" they get promoted to be Scouts and wear scout armor.

thanks

Xalendar said:

With the Librarian, I would agree - they would be identified as potentials among the recruits and brought up by the Librarian's as an initiate of some type.

With the Tech marine though, i don't see why their technical leanings couldn't allow them a specialization off of tactical. Techmarines still need to know how to use a bolter.

aka_mythos said:

Although one could say that once they start to fall, they are no longer Sisters of the Order.

Soyokaze said:

I'm sure that there are plenty of Scout Marine Sergeants that would take exception to your stance.

Nihilius Zee said: