Hello there fellow GMs

I will like your critique in my Miraluka concept. Instead of making them Force Sensitive, I decided for a different approach I am using Donovan Morningfire’s suggestion of using the Melitto Sightless Vision ability on them.

Can you please take a look and checked if is balanced?

Jax Caelum, Miraluka Jedi Padawan

Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn

Strain Threshold: 10 + Willpower

Starting Experience: 90 XP

Special Abilities: Miraluka begin the game with one rank in either Cool or Discipline. They still may not train Cool or Discipline above rank 2 during character creation.

Force Vision: Perceive surroundings without the need of light, and do not suffer penalties for combat and perception checks due to darkness.

I gave them a bonus in Willpower as I see them as an insightful species and a penalty to Cunning as I didn’t see them as a scheming species. I decided to go with Discipline as bonus skill as I see the Miraluka as calm and collected individuals.

I'd reduce the XP to 95, maybe 90. Not being reliant on light is a fairly significant advantage.

Maybe provide an alternative skill pick, so Discipline or Cool?

Thank you for taking your time and posting your comments Dazgrim.

Sounds reasonable changes. I used the 100xp as base because I haven’t personally experienced too many darkness challenges with my last GM but that doesn’t mean that’s the rule for everyone. I also believe that it’s a good idea to present the player with an alternate skill and I feel cool feels like a good choice.

14 minutes ago, FelixFenix said:

Thank you for taking your time and posting your comments Dazgrim.

Sounds reasonable changes. I used the 100xp as base because I haven’t personally experienced too many darkness challenges with my last GM but that doesn’t mean that’s the rule for everyone. I also believe that it’s a good idea to present the player with an alternate skill and I feel cool feels like a good choice.

Environmental effects are underused in my experience, partly because when they are, they often end up being forgotten. They are pretty important though, and I am a strong proponent of their use.

Updated per Dazgrim suggestion. Also added my Miraluka character art, courtesy of the talented Peter Violini.

On 12/8/2020 at 7:37 PM, FelixFenix said:

Updated per Dazgrim suggestion. Also added my Miraluka character art, courtesy of the talented Peter Violini.

I dig the artwork.

RLogue177, thanks. I’ll let him know He does all our Star Wars & L5R character commissions.

On 12/8/2020 at 5:28 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Environmental effects are underused in my experience, partly because when they are, they often end up being forgotten. They are pretty important though, and I am a strong proponent of their use.

With the addition of only 1 or 2 setback die, they're a problem at "low levels" and for people with average-to-low scores, but nothing else.

47 minutes ago, False God said:

With the addition of only 1 or 2 setback die, they're a problem at "low levels" and for people with average-to-low scores, but nothing else.

Then we should just toss Gearhead, Galaxy Mapper, Conditioned, Expert Tracker, the Multi-Optic Sight, et al out the window.

Setback still contribute to difficulty and when from an environmental effect, apply to all characters. When you've got 750 EXP, yeah it's probably not a problem. But for the majority of players, a couple Setback (which is roughly equal to one difficulty die) is an obstacle. Any time you can remove them is good. Plus, when you're really high level and you fail a check, the difference is probably a single Failure, which a Setback can grant. It can also prevent you from getting an extra hit with your Auto-fire attack, or triggering all the qualities you were hoping to on a particular attack. One less positive symbol is still one less positive symbol.

And even when it's not a big obstacle to your PCs, it might be one for the NPCs. Or you can have NPCs trying to take PCs where they are weak, making use of a smoke screen and darkness while using special goggles to ignore the effects, giving them an edge over their enemy.

But when I say they are important, I'm not saying they make checks inordinately difficult. I'm saying they are important. The real question is "what's the cause of the Setbacks?" That's where you get your flavor. If you don't have any Setback from rain, darkness, blizzard conditions, snow blindness, chaotic lighting (e.g. nightclub), etc. you are missing one of the spices used to make the meat taste better. Other sorts of spices are the physical type. Different gravity, shifting ground, a ship breaking apart, walking atop a moving train, etc.

Which scene do you think is cooler?

"The gunships swoop down and each disgorge a squad of stormtroopers who immediately fan out and open fire on the rebels."

or

"[in the middle of the night] The gunships swoop down, spotlights blinding the defenders and simultaneously lighting them up bright as day for the stormtroopers disgorging from their troop bays. The elite Imperial troops charge through the swamp mists, appearing wraithlike to the rebels in the trenches. The Rebels fire at the apparitions, struggling to tell actual troopers from tricks of their mind until the stormtroopers open fire at which point it's already too late."

A comparable situation to the second example would be the Battle of Umbara, which partly inspired that description.

I don't think False God was arguing that they shouldn't be used. He was only saying that at higher "levels" the PCs will have enough tools in their tool belt to mitigate their effect. But any GM worth their salt should still use them. Nothing makes a player more smug than handing black dice back to their GM because of their talents. And you know what? That's an easy win in the GM's column. Help a player feel confident for practically no effort on your part.

5 hours ago, kaosoe said:

I don't think False God was arguing that they shouldn't be used. He was only saying that at higher "levels" the PCs will have enough tools in their tool belt to mitigate their effect. But any GM worth their salt should still use them. Nothing makes a player more smug than handing black dice back to their GM because of their talents. And you know what? That's an easy win in the GM's column. Help a player feel confident for practically no effort on your part.

This.

And that's what I do. For example, I have a player with a "face" PC and I know they'll remove at least 2 setback in any given social check, but I'll assign them anyway so they can put those "Remove X setback" talents to use.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Then we should just toss Gearhead, Galaxy Mapper, Conditioned, Expert Tracker, the Multi-Optic Sight, et al out the window.

Might be better to ask me to expand upon what I said than make such silly comments.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Setback still contribute to difficulty and when from an environmental effect, apply to all characters. When you've got 750 EXP, yeah it's probably not a problem. But for the majority of players, a couple Setback (which is roughly equal to one difficulty die) is an obstacle. Any time you can remove them is good. Plus, when you're really high level and you fail a check, the difference is probably a single Failure, which a Setback can grant. It can also prevent you from getting an extra hit with your Auto-fire attack, or triggering all the qualities you were hoping to on a particular attack. One less positive symbol is still one less positive symbol.

As I've mentioned in other posts, my current players are about 1200xp. When when I say "not much of a problem at high levels" and you say "yeah if you've got 750+xp but for everyone else it's still a challenge!" then...what are we arguing about? I used setback A LOT when my players had about 300-500xp, but I found that as they got over 600, they simply ignored it, or had a talent that removed it. Me being the sort wanting to save time, if I know Susie has a talent that removes 2 setback from environmental checks (and some do it for the whole party!) I'll just knock those two off when I assign the check.

I know a lot of folks worry about auto-fire, wookiee brawler/doctors and linked-infinity, but I don't run a lot of combat encounters. Frankly, something in the way you're phrasing this sounds like your goal is to prevent player success more than anything. Apologies if its not, it just comes off very "Yeah use those setbacks to really stick it to them and keep them from using their cool stuff!".

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

And even when it's not a big obstacle to your PCs, it might be one for the NPCs. Or you can have NPCs trying to take PCs where they are weak, making use of a smoke screen and darkness while using special goggles to ignore the effects, giving them an edge over their enemy.

Yeah okay sure. I didn't say I never use environmental setbacks or that I never use setback dice at all. Just that I don't find them very effective at "high XP". You're really running away with this off a single sentence of mine.

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

But when I say they are important, I'm not saying they make checks inordinately difficult. I'm saying they are important. The real question is "what's the cause of the Setbacks?" That's where you get your flavor. If you don't have any Setback from rain, darkness, blizzard conditions, snow blindness, chaotic lighting (e.g. nightclub), etc. you are missing one of the spices used to make the meat taste better. Other sorts of spices are the physical type. Different gravity, shifting ground, a ship breaking apart, walking atop a moving train, etc.

Again, asking for more information from me might have been time better spent then running off thinking I just plain don't use them. I said they're not a problem .

6 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Which scene do you think is cooler?

"The gunships swoop down and each disgorge a squad of stormtroopers who immediately fan out and open fire on the rebels."

or

"[in the middle of the night] The gunships swoop down, spotlights blinding the defenders and simultaneously lighting them up bright as day for the stormtroopers disgorging from their troop bays. The elite Imperial troops charge through the swamp mists, appearing wraithlike to the rebels in the trenches. The Rebels fire at the apparitions, struggling to tell actual troopers from tricks of their mind until the stormtroopers open fire at which point it's already too late."

A comparable situation to the second example would be the Battle of Umbara, which partly inspired that description.

Honestly, this depends less on the dice used and more on how the checks go. Did the "defenders" fail their "blinded" check? Did the "rebels" fail their perception check? Did the rebels fail their ranged-something checks? Did the stormtroopers pass theirs?

For all intents and purposes, unless you're piling on the dice so thick that they're guaranteed to fail (which is just bad GMing), the rebels may have passed all their checks, never been blinded, not be confused by the mists and the stormtroopers could have missed all their shots.

Yes it's cooler, but it's not by any means guaranteed by adding setback dice. It's just good wordsmithing, and IMO the dice are not the storytellers.

41 minutes ago, False God said:

As I've mentioned in other posts, my current players are about 1200xp. When when I say "not much of a problem at high levels" and you say "yeah if you've got 750+xp but for everyone else it's still a challenge!" then...what are we arguing about? I used setback A LOT when my players had about 300-500xp, but I found that as they got over 600, they simply ignored it, or had a talent that removed it. Me being the sort wanting to save time, if I know Susie has a talent that removes 2 setback from environmental checks (and some do it for the whole party!) I'll just knock those two off when I assign the check.

I know a lot of folks worry about auto-fire, wookiee brawler/doctors and linked-infinity, but I don't run a lot of combat encounters. Frankly, something in the way you're phrasing this sounds like your goal is to prevent player success more than anything. Apologies if its not, it just comes off very "Yeah use those setbacks to really stick it to them and keep them from using their cool stuff!".

No, you were saying they "weren't a real problem" so I was countering that by saying that they can be. They won't necessarily result in failure, but they do have an effect. I use Setback where appropriate, not to "stick it to the PCs," which is not my style at all.

I did not intend my post to sound at all aggressive, but it is one of my pet peeves when people take "X at high level" and cite it for a question where high level isn't relevant, so I may have come on a bit stronger than I intended. The original discussion was as regards a starting species with the ability to ignore Setback due to visual conditions. In the very late game, may not mean a ton. In the early game, that can be really important. So if you cite "X at high level" when it isn't relevant, you seem to be extending your statement to include the topic at hand.

42 minutes ago, False God said:

Honestly, this depends less on the dice used and more on how the checks go. Did the "defenders" fail their "blinded" check? Did the "rebels" fail their perception check? Did the rebels fail their ranged-something checks? Did the stormtroopers pass theirs?

For all intents and purposes, unless you're piling on the dice so thick that they're guaranteed to fail (which is just bad GMing), the rebels may have passed all their checks, never been blinded, not be confused by the mists and the stormtroopers could have missed all their shots.

Yes it's cooler, but it's not by any means guaranteed by adding setback dice. It's just good wordsmithing, and IMO the dice are not the storytellers.

The defenders get a Setback from the bright lights, a Setback from the mist, and three Setback from the darkness. Meanwhile, the stormtroopers are able to remove two darkness Setback because of the gunships lighting up their targets and they don't have a Setback from being blinded, so they just have the one Setback from the mist and the one remaining from the darkness.

I'm using the RAW here. Setback are added passively by environmental conditions. If you don't have any Setback, it means you either don't have environmental conditions or you are ignoring the mechanical effects of the environmental condition. And if you ignore the mechanical effect, it can cause the narrative effect to become ignored because it is not being reinforced and there's no reminder of it.

12 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

No, you were saying they "weren't a real problem" so I was countering that by saying that they can be. They won't necessarily result in failure, but they do have an effect. I use Setback where appropriate, not to "stick it to the PCs," which is not my style at all.

I did not intend my post to sound at all aggressive, but it is one of my pet peeves when people take "X at high level" and cite it for a question where high level isn't relevant, so I may have come on a bit stronger than I intended. The original discussion was as regards a starting species with the ability to ignore Setback due to visual conditions. In the very late game, may not mean a ton. In the early game, that can be really important. So if you cite "X at high level" when it isn't relevant, you seem to be extending your statement to include the topic at hand.

Well, to the topic at hand, a Miraluka's "vision" is via the Force, so it could be highly situational based on the amount of Force in any given area. Similar to how Toph from AtLA says her "vision" is blurry in sand and can't see at all in water or air. Space, dead planets and rocky moons could cause the Miraluka to be treated as blind. Planets or places with low force presence could still apply some setback die. Further, it's the Force . What you see via it may not actually be reality, areas of supremely high Force could be like walking through a hallucinogenic dreamscape(or nightmarish hellscape if its strong in the dark side). Consider, for example, how Neo "sees" the Machine City after he's been blinded.

Which is a wordy version of saying "I don't think the special ability really fits." because it's a rather subjective ability (but would make a rather cool Force Power!) based on how much ambient Force is available and in turn, how strong the Miraluka in question is in the Force.

However, to be constructive: Every living thing has the Force to some degree, so I'd take make like the cerean, they gain every social skill as a class skill, since their ability to "see" via the Force allows them some ability to "read" people via their auras. I'm a fan of choice, so I'd leave the choice between Cool and Discipline alone, but if bringing them closer to the Cerean makes them feel more balanced, I'd go for cool, since their lack of eyes makes them less responsive to, for lack of a better word "jumpscares".

12 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

The defenders get a Setback from the bright lights, a Setback from the mist, and three Setback from the darkness. Meanwhile, the stormtroopers are able to remove two darkness Setback because of the gunships lighting up their targets and they don't have a Setback from being blinded, so they just have the one Setback from the mist and the one remaining from the darkness.

I'm using the RAW here. Setback are added passively by environmental conditions. If you don't have any Setback, it means you either don't have environmental conditions or you are ignoring the mechanical effects of the environmental condition. And if you ignore the mechanical effect, it can cause the narrative effect to become ignored because it is not being reinforced and there's no reminder of it.

To get to our conversation, not every element of the environment needs to be represented with an additional die. I can say that the hill is slippery and keep it at an Easy difficulty check to climb down and use failures and threats from that just fine without adding a setback for "slipperyness". The players will remember because when they generate threat I'll spend it on effects related to the environment. Just because I don't have a die for that specific condition, doesn't mean that condition isn't in play.

14 minutes ago, False God said:

To get to our conversation, not every element of the environment needs to be represented with an additional die. I can say that the hill is slippery and keep it at an Easy difficulty check to climb down and use failures and threats from that just fine without adding a setback for "slipperyness". The players will remember because when they generate threat I'll spend it on effects related to the environment. Just because I don't have a die for that specific condition, doesn't mean that condition isn't in play.

Well here's where we differ. I assign a difficulty based on the situation under normal conditions. Then I add Setback or Boost for the things that deviate from "normal conditions." That's how the game intends for Setback to work and for how Setback removal talents work.
Does the cliff have an excess of hand/footholds? Add a Boost. Is the cliff slick, with few hand/footholds? Add a Setback. Is the rock very crumbly, making it dangerous to climb? Upgrade the difficulty instead.

I'm not saying the way you do it is "wrong" per se, though I do disagree, but what exactly do you add Setback for?

19 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Well here's where we differ. I assign a difficulty based on the situation under normal conditions. Then I add Setback or Boost for the things that deviate from "normal conditions." That's how the game intends for Setback to work and for how Setback removal talents work.
Does the cliff have an excess of hand/footholds? Add a Boost. Is the cliff slick, with few hand/footholds? Add a Setback. Is the rock very crumbly, making it dangerous to climb? Upgrade the difficulty instead.

I'm not saying the way you do it is "wrong" per se, though I do disagree, but what exactly do you add Setback for?

More extreme situations mostly. Blizzards, sandstorms, heavy rain or unstable terrain are typically 2 setback unless Severe*/Extreme* But if I get 3 setback from the same source, I increase the difficulty. (mostly I do this to conserve dice, some of the table have apps, some don't, I own about 4 sets of dice, but most of my players only have 1). I typically combine environmental effects if I feel they're closely related or more all-encompassing. So poor visual quality (1 setack), inclinmate weather (rain, heat, etc.. 1 setback), and rough terrain (1 setback) would all get rolled into "poor environmental conditions" and add 1 P.

So....Lets say you're traveling through the desert of Tatooine. That's a PP difficulty with a setback for the heat. A Severe 2 sandstorm has blown in which increases the difficulty by 2 and adds 2 setback dice. But because I got a 3rd setback die here related to "the environment" that adds another P, for a total of PPPPP.

*I use Severe/Extreme weather ratings to increase or upgrade the difficulty of the check respectively. So a Severe 2 storm would add 2 PP to a base 1 P, as well as 2 setback. If the storm is Severe 2, Extreme 1 (say, it's a severe rain storm but is bringing some strange, or particularly strong wind, the check would be 1R, 2P, 2 setback.)

Also...does this board have emogies or codes or something for the dice?

10 minutes ago, False God said:

More extreme situations mostly. Blizzards, sandstorms, heavy rain or unstable terrain are typically 2 setback unless Severe*/Extreme* But if I get 3 setback from the same source, I increase the difficulty. (mostly I do this to conserve dice, some of the table have apps, some don't, I own about 4 sets of dice, but most of my players only have 1). I typically combine environmental effects if I feel they're closely related or more all-encompassing. So poor visual quality (1 setack), inclinmate weather (rain, heat, etc.. 1 setback), and rough terrain (1 setback) would all get rolled into "poor environmental conditions" and add 1 P.

So....Lets say you're traveling through the desert of Tatooine. That's a PP difficulty with a setback for the heat. A Severe 2 sandstorm has blown in which increases the difficulty by 2 and adds 2 setback dice. But because I got a 3rd setback die here related to "the environment" that adds another P, for a total of PPPPP.

*I use Severe/Extreme weather ratings to increase or upgrade the difficulty of the check respectively. So a Severe 2 storm would add 2 PP to a base 1 P, as well as 2 setback. If the storm is Severe 2, Extreme 1 (say, it's a severe rain storm but is bringing some strange, or particularly strong wind, the check would be 1R, 2P, 2 setback.)

2 Setback is slightly better than 1 difficulty, so shifting 3 Setback to a single difficulty die is actually decreasing the difficulty pretty significantly.

2 Setback vs. 1 difficulty:

• 1/9 chance of rolling nothing vs. 1/8.
• 4/9 chance of rolling 2 symbols vs. 3/8.
• Average 0.66 Failure vs. 0.5.
• Average 0.66 Threat vs. 0.75.
• Average 1.33 symbols vs. 1.25.

3 Setback vs. 1 difficulty:

• 1/27 chance of rolling nothing vs. 1/8.
• 8/27 chance of rolling 3 symbols vs. 0.
• (12+8)/27 chance of rolling 2 or 3 symbols vs. 3/8.
• Average 1 Failure vs. 0.5.
• Average 1 Threat vs. 0.75.
• Average 2 symbols vs. 1.25.

On average, 3 Setback will roll 60% more symbols than a single difficulty die, while possessing greater potential for multiple symbols and less potential for no symbols.

I understand the number of dice reason why you would condense, so I'd suggest subtracting 2 Setback in favor of a Difficulty to a minimum of 1 Setback remaining.

Oh, wait, did you mean that you add a difficulty instead of adding a third Setback, but you keep the other two? Never mind then. The above stats are still useful info, so I'll leave them there.

I prefer to stack Setback, as the players can get gear and talents that removes Setback and I don't want to artificially decrease the value of that stuff. Increasing the difficulty instead of adding Setback prevents them from getting use out of their gear and talents or reduces the amount of use they can get out of them and decreases the impetus to purchase specialized equipment for certain situations.

10 minutes ago, False God said:

Also...does this board have emogies or codes or something for the dice?

Nope, not as far as I know. Standard code is first letter of the color, with S for Setback. So YGBFSRP.

2 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

2 Setback is slightly better than 1 difficulty, so shifting 3 Setback to a single difficulty die is actually decreasing the difficulty pretty significantly.

2 Setback vs. 1 difficulty:

• 1/9 chance of rolling nothing vs. 1/8.
• 4/9 chance of rolling 2 symbols vs. 3/8.
• Average 0.66 Failure vs. 0.5.
• Average 0.66 Threat vs. 0.75.
• Average 1.33 symbols vs. 1.25.

3 Setback vs. 1 difficulty:

• 1/27 chance of rolling nothing vs. 1/8.
• 8/27 chance of rolling 3 symbols vs. 0.
• (12+8)/27 chance of rolling 2 or 3 symbols vs. 3/8.
• Average 1 Failure vs. 0.5.
• Average 1 Threat vs. 0.75.
• Average 2 symbols vs. 1.25.

On average, 3 Setback will roll 60% more symbols than a single difficulty die, while possessing greater potential for multiple symbols and less potential for no symbols.

I understand the number of dice reason why you would condense, so I'd suggest subtracting 2 Setback in favor of a Difficulty to a minimum of 1 Setback remaining.

The only reason I did it at 3S instead of 2S is that it seemed a lot of talents "remove 2 setback" from things. And I liked keeping 2 setback available for the character to remove, so that they can feel like those talents were worth purchasing. Granted I could just leave them there and not condense, but I like the idea that the environment has become so adverse, it has moved up to a level where certain talents become less effective.

4 minutes ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

Oh, wait, did you mean that you add a difficulty instead of adding a third Setback, but you keep the other two? Never mind then. The above stats are still useful info, so I'll leave them there.

I prefer to stack Setback, as the players can get gear and talents that removes Setback and I don't want to artificially decrease the value of that stuff. Increasing the difficulty instead of adding Setback prevents them from getting use out of their gear and talents or reduces the amount of use they can get out of them and decreases the impetus to purchase specialized equipment for certain situations.

Nope, not as far as I know. Standard code is first letter of the color, with S for Setback. So YGBFSRP.

It's situational. Sometimes 3S will just go straight into 1P, with no more setback. I add up the total setback first, then convert each 3S into 1P. Sometimes there will be 1 or two leftover.

IE: The weather is drizzly, 1P. A fog has rolled in 1S, the ground is uneven 1S, it's night 2S (for greater darkness due to overcast). So, 4S. 3 go to 1P. For a total of 2P1S. (this is also how I name droids).

Miraluka are always a tough one to make, due to the Force Sight still being an ambiguous ability. The D20 Revised entry for their sight says they can't perceive light at all due to not having eyes, but the Force Sight lets them detect their surroundings and interact with things. In the KOTR video game, when the PC learns Force Sight from his companion, it's a white haze when the player gets to see what is going on. Walls are visible, so it's not xray vision. Other than that, you can't see any detail other than silhouettes for people and walls, floors, etc. I imagine it to be much like that for them.

It would be crippling for a character and species to not be able to use computers and technology in a sci-fi setting, but when 90%+ of technical readouts are lit-up screens, I'd think it would be very difficult for them.

I would see that as a huge flavor win for RP material. The "blind" ronin going from town (planet) to town, getting into adventures, not able to understand half of what is going on (the villains plans are on the datapad the minion has, but he can't read it himself... he can only tell the minion is nervous after being captured). Much like Kanan Jarrus from the Rebels show could still function in certain roles, but otherwise had problems and needed people to explain things to him.

The majority of people don't like challenge though, so it could just be hand-waved that Force Sight lets them do what others can.

Uh, after saying all of that... I would say to give them the base power of Farsight, but not require a check and they cannot buy upgrades without having a Force Rating.

@SuperWookie how about if instead I use Kanan’s Farsight Force Power from Dawn of Rebellion. What it does it grants regular vision to the individual without spending a Force Point?

Miraluka

Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn

Strain Threshold: 11 + Willpower

Starting Experience: 100 XP

Special Abilities: Miraluka begin the game with one rank in either Cool or Discipline. They still may not train Cool or Discipline above rank 2 during character creation.

Miraluka Farsight - Though blind, Miralukans can use their connection to the Force to function as if sighted. They do not need to spend a Force Point to activate this power.

I gave them +1 in Strain Threshold because to be honest their Farsight only gives them regular vision nothing more.