19 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

But most of that identity you talk about was retconned after the fact. When these families joined the Mantis they didn't have any of the "character" you complain about them losing.

Irrelevant, if one comes to them after the fact and sees what might have been devoured by what is.

Quote

And did you ignore the original Moshi Wakiza art I posted earlier.

I did, because you picked a pretty bad example, man. She went from showing cleavage and wearing pants to... no longer wearing the pants. Like... you're kinda proving the point.

Quote

Wasp code was all about Archery before, and stayed that way after they joined the Mantis. Their background was they were bounty hunters, and under the Mantis they became Magistrates so official bounty hunters instead of independent.

When they bothered to do anything with them at all.

Quote

Fox stayed pretty hippyish since they kept the summoned animals theme. They also kept the honor theme which was separate from the general Mantis themes.

Two things...

1. No they didn't, a Kitsune shugenja poisoned the waters during the Crane/Mantis war.

2. That honor theme, arriving as late in AEG's tenure as it did, was the only thing the Fox got to keep in the face of the Borgitomo.

Quote

Yes they did adopt certain traits from the Mantis as well, but the same thing happened as you said to the Falcon who became just another Crab family, or the Sparrow who were forced to become the "public" face for the Spider.

1. The Sparrow situation was temporary, and the Sparrow counter-assimilated some of the Spider, to the point where the last carded Sparrow explicitly had a mad-on for the Spider. Also, the Spider who did that? Bad guys from planet Badguy.

2. Yeah, because any retroactive Falcon flavor wasn't really that different from a bunch of Kuni and Hiruma running around.

Quote

As to your mention of other clans that could have been absorbed, Ox present two problems as they didn't come about until after the Clan War when Mantis had already been promoted to Great Clan Status and they were actually a front of the Kolat.

Well, Yoritomo was one brand decision away from sporting a Kolat keyword in one of his later cards, and the Ox absorbtion could have hit instead of the Fox. But that choice wasn't made, because AEG... was AEG.

Quote

Badger were an after thought as they never really did anything with them.

Doesn't alter the basic point. By your own words earlier, the Centipede, Fox, and Wasp were an afterthought until they'd been Borged up.

Quote

I agree Tortoise would have made a much better fit (and in an ideal world if I were elevating the Mantis again would be one of the first Minor Clans that I would have searing fealty to the new clan along with the Wasp and a splinter Yasuki faction as the Carp clan so that I have my economic faction) but for what ever reason AEG didn't feel the same way.

AEG flubbed plenty.

While the Mantis playerbase made plenty of choices I thought were stupid and counterproductive (and lest you get defensive, recall that I'm a Phoenix fan, and our playerbase is comically disjointed and has made some of the most boneheaded rallying cries imaginable), the Borging up of Minor Clans wasn't the fault of the Mantis playerbase. That was AEG folding in factions and then not really bothering to distinguish them within the greater whole.

The problem, of course, is that it made a really easy and legitimate gripe to level at the Mantis is you didn't like them anyway (I absolutely loathed how AEG handled them, but FFG's clean slate has already done a lot to fix my problems with the Mantis).

Quote

B u t most of that identity you talk about was retconned after the fact. When these families joine d the Man tis they didn't have any of th e " character" you complain about them losing.

Not so.

Way of the Minor Clans, which did a lot of the character building, was published in 1999. At the time, the various minor clans were represented in game as allied with the Mantis in Yoritomo's Alliance, but they were not part of the Mantis. Note how Moshi Wakiza XP is a Centipede Clan Shugenja * Yoritomo's Alliance personality and doesn't say Mantis Clan anywhere. There even was a Yoritomo's Alliance stronghold at the time that specifically banned you from using Mantis Clan personalities, if you needed more proof the Alliance and the Mantis were not the same.

In the real world, It's only after Spirit Wars (nov 2000) that Mantis replaced Yoritomo's Alliance and Centipede or Wasp clan on cards (Mukami experienced 2, in Soul of the Empire (July 2000) is still a Wasp clan personality with no mention of the Mantis) and that the borgification of everyone as the Mantis started

4 hours ago, Himoto said:

Not so.

Way of the Minor Clans, which did a lot of the character building, was published in 1999. At the time, the various minor clans were represented in game as allied with the Mantis in Yoritomo's Alliance, but they were not part of the Mantis. Note how Moshi Wakiza XP is a Centipede Clan Shugenja * Yoritomo's Alliance personality and doesn't say Mantis Clan anywhere. There even was a Yoritomo's Alliance stronghold at the time that specifically banned you from using Mantis Clan personalities, if you needed more proof the Alliance and the Mantis were not the same.

In the real world, It's only after Spirit Wars (nov 2000) that Mantis replaced Yoritomo's Alliance and Centipede or Wasp clan on cards (Mukami experienced 2, in Soul of the Empire (July 2000) is still a Wasp clan personality with no mention of the Mantis) and that the borgification of everyone as the Mantis started

That's after the fact. Jade Edition (which is when Mantis were officially a Great Clan and the Wasp and Centipede had sworn fealty) was released May 1998. At that time Yoritomo's Alliance and Mantis were considered the same for faction affiliation. Wakiza released as part of the TIme of the Void Expansion (1997) and was prior to her marriage to Yoritomo (although they were officially betrothed at that point per an earlier clan letter). You are right after the first time skip during the Gold edition they made the transition of phasing out Yoritomo's Alliance to Mantis clan as the official designation for the clan but that was because the Alliance had ceased to exist post Clan War and prior to that due to the legacy characters still in the card pool it was necessary to keep both Clan Affiliations available. And yes I was aware of the first Kitsune box considering I mentioned it twice in previous posts.

The complaint of borgification also ignores that the fact that prior to swearing fealty to the Mantis both the Wasp and Centipede were small clans. Wasp started as Tsuruchi and 20 or so followers who survived the purge of his family by the Lion and Scorpion, and Centipede had always been an isolated family (heck one of the primary in story reason given for making them a minor clan was the difficulty the phoenix had in transporting goods back and forth between them for taxes and so it was easier for them to handle it directly themselves) who even before the union were retconned to have a history of intermarrying with the Mantis since they had more frequent contact with them then the other clans. Both families had a massive influx of Mantis swearing fealty to the new families in order to assist in building up the mainland holdings of the new families so yes they so yes they brought certain Mantis traits with them, but they also picked up traits of the families they were swearing fealty to, Tsuruchi had to forgo the Katana in favor of the bow still, Centipede (who at that point had lost their connection to the Sun as Amaterasu had been replaced by Hida Yakamo as the Sun were still a matriarchy, and we were given that their was an internal schism of old guard and new guard over the veneration of Amaterasu versus the need to find a new focus (which Mantis Storm magic provided them).

The "swearing fealty tothe Mantis" thing was , however, extremely downplayed in flavor text, stories and card during the Jade and Pearl arcs (if they were mentioned at all, and not a later addition from the RPG books). Again, it's not just Wakiza: Mukami Experienced 2 (soul of the empire, july 2000) was marked as Wasp Clan and NOT Mantis Clan, as was Tsuruchi exp2 (Fire and Shadow, March 2000). Fire and Shadow also proves categorically that Yoritomo's Alliance and Mantis Clan were not identical at the time (though Mantis Clan persinalities were considered part of YA), as again Kyuden Kitsune clearly distinguishes between them (you can play with YA personalities, but not Mantis ones). Meanwhile, several YA personalities from the Fox and Tortoise (who did not swear fealty) were still being printed, which proves the alliance did not end with the clan war.

NO Moshi or Wasp (the Tsuruchi family name wasn't used at that point) was printed with the Mantis Clan alignment until Moshi Shanegon and Tsuruchi Okame in Spirit Wars. It's also when the card "Fall of the Alliance" was printed, with flavor text indicating that minor clans could either swear fealty to the mantis, or be forgotten. If the alliance fell in Spirit Wars,

So, no. While the fealty may have already happened, the full absorption of the Centipede and Wasp into the Mantis wasn't until after Way of the Minor Clans - until Spirit Wars they were still presented as distinct to the players. Their personality came first, and their borgification second.

5 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

The complaint of borgification also ignores that the fact that prior to swearing fealty to the Mantis both the Wasp and Centipede were small clans.

But as with several of your other points, that doesn't matter to how players perceive the change, and whether they resent the Mantis for it. There was a cool flavor available that was not Mantis; then that flavor got dropped, and in its place was another member of Yoritomo's merry pirate crew.

With the Kuni leaning harder into ‘willing to accept the Taint to fight the Shadowlands. My life for the Crab’ fatalism, the Toritaka as ghost mediums trying the soft touch helps them from being Diet Crab this time around.

I would love, love, LOVE a Yasuki reunification into a Carp Clan. Hachi shows up as the legitimate heir to both branches, becomes a minor Clan as a solution. River Mantis!

On 12/12/2020 at 1:56 PM, Himoto said:

Then present some quote from anywhere in the canon that say they can't, or that even show us that people in Rokugan doubt claims. As is, the Moshi's relation and connection to Lady Sun has been fairly consistent across multiple sources for multiple versions of the L5R setting, none of which (except the 1E books) have been presented as potentially being unreliable narrator work. This new text simply imports into the new canon something that was well established in the setting previously. At that point, you neeed something a little stronger than "I feel this is inconsistent" (which is what your argument boils down to). Essentially, your position is similar to the people arguing that Endor must have been ruined from the debris of the first Death Star in ROTJ, despite it now being clearly established in both the old EU and New Canon that Endor was not ruined. It may feel logically consistent to you, but it is not supported by any version of the canon.

Also might I say that it's a little weird watching you change gear from your dislike of the setting being grounded in "this might be bad trans representation" to "Amaterasu has a deep grudges against all males".

I am going to write this against my better judgement, but... no, I think this must be written.

The less controversial part-- there is a HUGE difference between "we worship Lady Sun and maybe get access to better fire elemental powers as a result" compared to "we alone hear the orders from the highest divinity in Rokugan and all must obey us or be out of the Celestial Order"

I cannot recall anything in old L5R that ever indicated that the Moshi were literally the agents of Lady Amaterasu and the direct enactors of her will. And, although I will admit to having lost track of things after Diamond or so, given that Amaterasu was killed off, reincarnated as Toturi's daughter and then died again... I feel very confident in asserting that was never a thing.

The more controversial part is this....

There is no separation between this being a bad representation of transgender and advocating for a hatred of half the human population. Its the same **** thing.

The story here is literally advocating for the attitude of "Well, our son showed a trait that our culture decided was feminine, so get out the knives girls-- time to make a eunuch!"

Why this brand of feminism-- the sort that directly blames all ill and all evil in the world solely upon the existence of males and actively seeks to get those born male to renounce their gender and tries to force a feminine identity upon any of their children that are "born wrong"-- why fantasy RPG settings should feel that they should advocate for, justify, such mentality-- is utterly beyond me.

There are those who transgender from female to male, so this idea that one should seek any possible excuse to castrate their sons for the betterment of society and humanity is merely toxic-- at least as toxic as those that seek to mutilate the genitalia of their daughters lest they have children out of wedlock due to intercourse being enjoyable.

Why you feel the need to be the advocate for such a mentality, such a policy, I can only imagine.

Now-- if the RPG involved groups that were unduly patriarchal, I would definitely see a reason to include some matriarchal groups to counter-balance that. Though I cannot help but feel that these matriarchal groups go way, way further than any of the patriarchal groups go in terms of power and privilege disparity when it comes to their representation.

And I am all for homosexual inclusion, and transgender inclusion, but the later should most definitely not come in the form of "we decided that this ability is a female thing, so we castrated our son and he thanks us for it."

Because that whole thing of encouraging parents to sex reassign their children based on their own cultural biases is just so unbearably creepy.

1 hour ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

With the Kuni leaning harder into ‘willing to accept the Taint to fight the Shadowlands. My life for the Crab’ fatalism, the Toritaka as ghost mediums trying the soft touch helps them from being Diet Crab this time around.

I would love, love, LOVE a Yasuki reunification into a Carp Clan. Hachi shows up as the legitimate heir to both branches, becomes a minor Clan as a solution. River Mantis!

I'm not sure what you mean by reunification? The Yasuki are a Crab family only. The political ploy by Naseru to weaken the Crab by making a Crane daimyo of one of their families hasn't happened in this timeline and is unlikely to.

Okay, seriously? As an actual trans woman, stop "defending" us (scare quote very intended). Please. If you're going around calling my transition castration, insisting that feminist force womanhood upon their children (what the everloving heck), you're neither friend nor ally to the trans community - and you certainly have no say in what's good representation of trans women (for what this is worth, I like this, though other trans people may of course feel differently). (Your terminology is also about twenty years out of date when not just outright wrong, which doesn't help)

Considering that half your argument relies on a subject matter you failed to demonstrate your understanding of, and the other half relies on your still entirely unsupported assertion that Amaterasu speaking to the Centipede has to be false despite the story saying otherwise, I don't really think there's any need for further analysis of your claims.

56 minutes ago, Himoto said:

Okay, seriously? As an actual trans woman, stop "defending" us (scare quote very intended). Please. If you're going around calling my transition castration, insisting that feminist force womanhood upon their children (what the everloving heck), you're neither friend nor ally to the trans community - and you certainly have no say in what's good representation of trans women (for what this is worth, I like this, though other trans people may of course feel differently). (Your terminology is also about twenty years out of date when not just outright wrong, which doesn't help)

Considering that half your argument relies on a subject matter you failed to demonstrate your understanding of, and the other half relies on your still entirely unsupported assertion that Amaterasu speaking to the Centipede has to be false despite the story saying otherwise, I don't really think there's any need for further analysis of your claims.

Please describe to me the aptitude, ability or preference that could possibly exist by which you would declare a small child who was born with female genitalia to be disqualified from being female and to definitively be male by which you would feel justified and confident to surgically remove the ovaries so as to prevent the body from being unduly flooded by estrogen and thus formed in a less than manly shape and henceforth teach the child to identify by male pronouns and to dress in explicitly male attire... please describe exactly what that aptitude, ability or preference would be.

Because you have already demonstrated that you feel absolute certitude and confidence that you can make the choice on behalf of a person born with male genitalia that their aptitudes, abilities or preferences can disqualify them as being male and should thus be surgically altered, taught to behave differently, and taught to identify differently from how they were born.

If it is not actually about demonizing and hatred of the male sex, then it should go both ways, shouldn't it?

But we don't have a case of "You can do ________, so you aren't actually a girl-- you are a boy." do we? We would never have such a case, would we?

Not only do I feel very confident that you cannot provide me with a single, even imaginary magical ability by which you would declare be the basis on which a small child should be disqualified from being a female and have a male identity imposed upon "him".

Because it isn't about choice. It isn't about gender expectations. It is about your personal political crusade to erase half the human population from the earth, the half you have decided for entirely misguided political reasoning is responsible for all the ill in the world and you have decided to resolve that by creating an artificially limited and narrow definition of what traits define one as "male" and decided that any trait, any aptitude, any ability outside of that automatically disqualifies one and thus removes the "sin" of having been born the "evil" sex.

And, again, if it isn't that-- please do tell me any ability, interest or well... anything by which you would feel comfortable declaring that someone born female is not actually a female and surgically alter them.

Given that your goal is to erase half the human species-- well, I imagine, half of all species born with two genders from the surface of the earth-- why should I, or anyone who isn't, by the very definition of the term, genocidal be an ally of you and your cause?

And one last time-- if I am incorrect in my accusations here, then please do describe the even magical ability or aptitude that even a fictional character could demonstrate by which you would feel this much conviction, certitude and confidence in saying that his ovaries should have been sliced out, he should have been raised as a boy and identify as a boy and be thankful to his parents for having avoided the horrific fate of having been mistakenly raised female.

And it can't be an ability or aptitude that you would simultaneously describe as "evil".

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'm not sure what you mean by reunification? The Yasuki are a Crab family only.

Huh. You’re absolutely correct. I have a wrong memory of there being a Crane Yasuki family and and Crab Yasuki family simultaneously pre-Clan War in Old5r, only part of the family having split off to join the Crab.

Clearly remembering things from an alternate universe.

And here's the grossly predictable mask drop. Color me surprised.

Seeing as we are given no actual indication anything was forced on anyone - merely you reading the story that way, and given the whole "the Moshi must be lying about speaking to Lady Sun" thing we know you like to ignore what the story actually say and substitute what you want it to say - I am once again forced to reject your entire premise and your nonsensical rant with it.

To use an actually relevant example in modern healthcare: there are studies pointing at potential genetic and/or physiological indicators of being trans. Some people have suggested this could lead to the creation of tests that check for those indicators. If we ever get those tests, *nobody* should be forced to transition just because of a test result, and nobody should be forced to not transition just because of a test result either (the second half is why I'm generally wary of the idea). But you'd still see a lot of people who get the positive test result question themselves and come to the conclusison that transitioning *IS* right for them - because they are, in fact, trans, and the test would only have provided them with the impetus to realize it. That goes for transitioning in all directions (including the whole spectrum of non binary trans folks).

This is how I read that story: that the Moshi character was, in fact, trans from the get-go, and that the communication from Amaterasu was what led to them realizing it and acting accordingly (a LOT of us trans people have that kind of moment of realization where a lot of different little pieces fall together because of some outside impetus. It just doesn't usually involve the Sun Goddess). I don't see ANY reason to interpret this story as anyone being forced to do anything against their will. The only story where that happens exist only in your imagination (just like the story where the Moshi can't really speak to Lady Sun,) and I have no interest in it.

@TheHobgoblyn , your argument is wildly inconsistent with the text, flies in the face of what we know about FFG's stance as a company, and is insulting to at least one member of this community. Drop it.

There is a massive difference in an adult, or even a teen, deciding they must be the wrong sex depending upon various factors and someone deciding on behalf of a child that they were born the wrong sex based on wholly culturally determined factors.

"This boy likes to cook, he must actually a girl. Lets raise him to identify as such."

"This girl has interest in cars, I guess she was born wrong and should be a boy. Lets do an invasive operation to make it so."

This whole lionizing of the mentality of breaking things wholly into "boy things" and "girl things" and enacting gender-reassignment on children based on such wholly flawed concepts is what I object to.

Especially given that it is accompanied by the mentality that all things can be female, it is tke concept of being male that gets assigned to an ever increasingly narrow box.

Roukugan has 3 different schools that explicitly require one to be a woman yet not a sngle one that remotely implies one should be male to be.

So women can be absolutely anythlng but the window in which one can receive anything but derision and scorn while being male ever narrows.

It really seems like those who, faced with bullying in their youth decided to accept and agree with the immaure concepts of those bullies and chose to perpetuate that same mentality. Chose to change their own identies in a desperate bid to find acceptance and now seek approval to force such an identity change upon children to adhere to these misguided gender normatives.

And because such a hardlined gender dichotomy with the "proper" response to it is to adapt to societal gender normative expectations, one is expected to support it and brainwash boys into being girls because they like anything labeled as a "girl thing".

Well, screw that. One changing their own gender to meet expectations rather than changing gender expectations to meet reality.

And if there were any "male only" school or ability, I guaratee you that a character born female would not be expected to transition to be accepted, but would rather be used as proof the sex excluson was based purely on patriarchal bias-- probably by having the one girl to enter the "male only" school surpass all male students.

But nothing that is exclusive to women or biased towards women can be shown to be similarly misguided as flawed. Rather have the male born characters shape themselves to conform rather than question a sex superiority complex when it favors women.

No one gets identified as trans because they like to cook or they like cars. Nor does anyone decide they're trans due to having been bullied. And no children are not being declared trans against their will. For crying out loud.

Seriously, educate yourself (from serious sources) before you spew more of your embarassing ignorance about trans people on these forums. You know nothing, and while it's fine not having a clue, it's like not having clothes: you don't show it off in public.

And again, you're reading things into the story that never were stated.

I must say, this is seriously gonna take the sting out of the forums evaporating...

I had no plan to migrate to follow conversations, and this certainly isn't changing my mind on that.

Generally the discourse on the L5R boards has been pretty good.

Generally.

Unfortunately, I think things have reached the point where I tell people how to use the ignore function:

If you hover over someone's name or avatar at the top left of their post, a small box will pop-up, with information and options, including ignore user.

On 12/29/2020 at 7:30 AM, Himoto said:

No one gets identified as trans because they like to cook or they like cars. Nor does anyone decide they're trans due to having been bullied. And no children are not being declared trans against their will. For crying out loud.

Seriously, educate yourself (from serious sources) before you spew more of your embarassing ignorance about trans people on these forums. You know nothing, and while it's fine not having a clue, it's like not having clothes: you don't show it off in public.

And again, you're reading things into the story that never were stated.

I am already very well educated as to what is being said. This story says if any male shows aptitude in an ability declared a "female" thing then that individually is to be raised to believe they are not a male but rather a female.

Meanwhle there is not a single school or function nor ability one is remotely required to be male to be.

Much less so definitely male that people would force anyone born female to adopt a male identity due to ability to do.

I get there are endless simps and white knights who will fight for an anti-male agenda in the hopes of getting ***** for doing so-- but I will be brave enough to say that having sex-discriminatory schools, of having abilities that will force a sex change if detected, is sexist.

I don't really care if a dozen peope are misandric enough to vote for the idea that a sex change from male to female on the basis of hearing the voice of a godess is okay.

I am happy to stand against a tidal wave of simps in saying it is ****** up.

Bravery usually involves fighting threats that actually exist.

Vividly imaginative though, I'll definitey give you.

Huh maybe I read wrong or it's a language thing (English is not my first language) but when I read the story I understood by "the parents first thought it was a boy" that it meant while the baby was in the womb, and then the baby was born and everyone saw it was a girl. It never crossed my mind it was a gender identity thing