Can Luke equip extreme maneuvers and use it if he has his s foils closed?

I'd say so. T-65 pilots have traditionally been able to equip and use Daredevil, and this is roughly equivalent.

Well I was wondering if that is true either, Daredevil is not available an an upgrade on the official app for x-wings. It is available on Yasb though

There are a few instances of upgrades not working as intended. I think this is the case here.

8 hours ago, librarian101 said:

Well I was wondering if that is true either, Daredevil is not available an an upgrade on the official app for x-wings. It is available on Yasb though

• The new app has a well-observed glitch where no upgrade "sees" other upgrades when determining requirements.
  • Upgrades that change slots aren't functioning.
    • Scum Slave 1 doesn't grant a Torpedo slot, Separatist Slave 1 doesn't grant a gunner slot, and so forth.
    • Huh. Just checked and they fixed this half of the glitch. Good to know.
  • Upgrades that require actions granted by other upgrades aren't functioning. For example:
    • Squad Leader ships can't equip Tactical Officer. SQL grants a Red Coordinate, so you ought to be able to equip TO.
    • Veteran Turret Gunner can't be equipped on ships with Dorsal or Ion Cannon Turret, since it's not "seeing" the Rotate action granted. This is a long-established combo in the game , leading to a lot of ship and upgrade cost nerfs. FFG has never before demonstrated problem with the interaction between actions granted by upgrades, and upgrades which require specific actions on your action bar. The price, maybe, but never the basic interaction.
• Daredevil and Extreme Maneuvers both fit this pattern. The S-Foils grant the Boost action, and that ought to be enough for the upgrades which require a boost action on your ship.
  • I mean, it worked in the old app.

A couple have told me that because it cannot be equipped with having the boost action on your action bar when the foils are open.

It half worked in the old app, it would work if you equipped S-Foils (closed) but not if you equipped S-Foils (open), due to a terrible design choice to treat double-sided upgrades as different upgrades. Since there has never been any mention of how double sided cards affect list building in the rules reference, most people believe that you can equip Daredevil with S-Foils and FFG has never contradicted that belief.

I'm curious to see what the new app will allow when the upgrade support is fixed.

I am going to answer here too:

Rules Reference:

"Action: If there is an action icon, this upgrade can be equipped only to a
ship with that action on its action bar. This does not include actions on its
linked action bar. "[P.22]

But...

"Some upgrade cards have an action bar that lists one or more actions.

These actions are added to the ship’s action bar and therefore are standard actions that the ship can perform." [P.3]

And...

"Q: If a ship equips an upgrade that alters one of its values (such as agility), how does this affect variable cost u pgrades?

A: Other upgrades are ignored when calculating variable costs, and the base values of the ship are used." [P.30]

With this ruling, I am more in the "is not a legal build" option and you ignore (like the official App) other upgrade cards, but maybe I am wrong...

With VTG and the Y-Wing, you add the Rotate action by Turret upgrade too, and we have played this combo from the start of Second Edition.

I think it's not a terrible take, that added actions don't allow upgrades which rely on the actions.

However, I disagree with it.

For a large part of 2e, this was allowed, and the App let folks add stuff like Squad Leader and Tactical Officer to the same ship. Could be that FFG has intended a change, but I'll need more convincing than the app doesn't work, and analogy to variable costs.

It's one of those cases where both sides have honest and reasonable RAW interpretations.

I agree that upgrades that add actions should permit one to use other upgrades which require said actions on the ships action bar.

The trickier issue with S-foils is that since the card can be flipped it means.... during the same game, sometimes the boost action is on the ship's "action bar" and sometimes it is not...

Overall I think S-foils should allow a pilot to use Extreme Maneuvers. The biggest argument against it is that sometimes the boost action is not on the action bar/available to the pilot. But in these cases the player obviously cannot use Extreme Maneuvers when S-foils are open, so really the only person it's hurting is the player who chooses to equip Extreme Maneuvers to a ship with closed s-foils? If a player believes that the marginally decreased value of Extreme Maneuvers is still worth it on pilots who only sometimes have the Boost action available, I say that's their call and it should be allowed.

Just now, player655164 said:

I agree that upgrades that add actions should permit one to use other upgrades which require said actions on the ships action bar.

The trickier issue with S-foils is that since the card can be flipped it means.... during the same game, sometimes the boost action is on the ship's "action bar" and sometimes it is not...

Overall I think S-foils should allow a pilot to use Extreme Maneuvers. The biggest argument against it is that sometimes the boost action is not on the action bar/available to the pilot. But in these cases the player obviously cannot use Extreme Maneuvers when S-foils are open, so really the only person it's hurting is the player who chooses to equip Extreme Maneuvers to a ship with closed s-foils? If a player believes that the marginally decreased value of Extreme Maneuvers is still worth it on pilots who only sometimes have the Boost action available, I say that's their call and it should be allowed.

I could also foresee an interpretation which says that players who use S-foils with upgrades that require Boost should not be allowed to open their S-foils; I would also disagree with this interpretation. Let players choose to use upgrades with decreased value if they so choose...

On 11/28/2020 at 2:07 AM, librarian101 said:

A couple have told me that because it cannot be equipped with having the boost action on your action bar when the foils are open.

Upgrades require only that you have the action available in your action bar when you equip them. Nowhere in the rules does it indicate that they “fall off” or stop working if the requisite action is removed.

In fact, imagine Luke Skywalker has S-Foils, Extreme Maneuvers, and Afterburners equipped. With his S-Foils open, he normally can’t Boost at all, but if he performs an Afterburners Boost, Extreme Maneuvers CAN enhance it... it doesn’t stop working just because the Boost action doesn’t currently appear on his action bar.

Daredevil and Veteran Turret Gunner are all the precedent I need. Extreme Maneuvers goes on Luke just fine.

Remember Extreme Maneuvers has a required action. Is not like Afterburners.

And I am not sure that a dual card fix this.

related to this topic, I just noticed that Tri-Fighters equipped with Interceptor Boosters are not allowed in YASB to equip Advanced SLAM.

If we are allowing Luke in an X-Wing with closed S-Foils to equip Extreme Maneuvers, is there any reason a Tri-Fighter with Intercept Boosters should not be allowed to equip Advanced SLAM since its only requirement is the SLAM action which Intercept Boosters give (although only for the first 3 turns)?

2 minutes ago, player655164 said:

related to this topic, I just noticed that Tri-Fighters equipped with Interceptor Boosters are not allowed in YASB to equip Advanced SLAM.

If we are allowing Luke in an X-Wing with closed S-Foils to equip Extreme Maneuvers, is there any reason a Tri-Fighter with Intercept Boosters should not be allowed to equip Advanced SLAM since its only requirement is the SLAM action which Intercept Boosters give (although only for the first 3 turns)?

Nothing immediately spring to mind. It looks like it should be legal.

As much as we may think it should work, until a more official source says its legal, i would err on the side of caution and say its not.

The way they are displaying the S-Foil cards (or any Dual side card for that matter) in the official app is you are adding the entire card (both sides), not one side or the other specifically . So it may not read what side the card is actually equipped during list building. Or it may not even factor that in. If that is on purpose, or by accident, we can't really know. We all just assume its by accident since the site got re-worked, but it could very well be that it was working before *because* of an oversight and they just fixed it in the new version.

Also, Several Dual side cards state you flip a specific side face up, During Setup. Including Intercept Boosters, L33-7, Landing Struts, ect.

The first step of the setup is.

Quote

Gather Forces: Each player places their ships and upgrade cards on the table in front of them.

Which is after building the squad.

I hate to say this, but there is merit for dual side cards not adding those actions to the ships action bar Until the setup step, which would make cards like Extreme Maneuvers (on Luke) or Advance Slam on Tri-Fighter's, not legal.

I agree that it would make sense for the dual sided cards to not affect list building, but there is nothing in the Rules that states that.

Though since last I checked, all upgrades that add actions were not affecting squad building in the official squadbuilder. That is a very significant change to the rules with no corroborating update to the rules reference, which makes a bug a very likely cause.