As Astropaths are "blind" due to the nature of their being, are they immune to the Navigator power The Lidless Stare?

I would argue that they are just as susceptible, if not more so. They are physically blind, but they perceive the environment through their powers. Since the Navigators third eye represents, in a way, an access point to the warp, I wold say an astropath perceiving it with their powers would be just as vulnerable to its effects.

I would rule the other way. I agree that they would be susceptible to it. However, the rules make specific reference to those within line of sight, and also make a point of mentioning bonuses for people not directly looking into the eye. This indicates to me that the power is heavily grounded in vision in its mundane form, since, to my knowledge, psy powers and psychic perception and not much affected by facing and, in many cases, line of sight. So I would have them be affected, but give them a bonus as if they were facing away.

The Inquisition War trilogy had a scene where an Astropath was gazing into the Third Eye of a Navigator without any ill effects. The Inquisition War series were the first ever 40K novels, and a lot of things are non-canon by now. But on the other hand, as far as I know they had the first ever appearance of the Third Eye in Navigators, prior to that they were just a variation of Psykers.

I have no idea if any source material in Novels or Sourcebooks has covered this since.

The third eye is dangerous because you're gazing into the warp while looking at it. So the astropath would use his warp-based perception to look into realspace to see the navigator's eye which is a window to the warp... er... I've got a feeling this might turn recursive.

I'd let the Astropath get the bonus for not looking at him directly. There seem to be two parts to the power: Firstly, the navigator emits something from his eye that is harmful even when not seen. Secondly, it gets yet more dangerous when it is seen. The latter part IMO shouldn't apply to an Astropath.

Why shouldn't it? The astropaths sight is described as working exactly like normal sight, seeing the same things and even more, so whatever it is that harms by being seen will be seen by astropaths. Astropaths don't see the warp, they have psychic sight which is not the same thing. Actually gazing into the warp is a rather severe fear test and it's not going to show you the real world, it's going to show you the warp. Astropaths see the normal world by psychic means, not the warp.

It might be that back in the day atstropaths blindness protected against the lidless stare. It's also the case that back in the day astropaths seeing without seeing was much less "like normal vision only better and cooler because they are blind monks, who can see better than others"

Graspar said:

so let's make it even worse for them.... they see even more of the warp... (through the warp/psy sense they have)

Pg. 77 "astropaths are not affected by effects that target their vision..."

Seems clear enough to me. The Lidless Stare targets people who look at the Navigator with vision, which the Astropath simply doesn't have. Besides, an astropath is a psyker, one of the few humans for whom the Warp is actually a fairly constant presence. Sure, they aren't as inoculated and protected against the Immaterium as Navigator's are, but their powers deal with the manipulation of the raw stuff that makes up the warp. Compare this to the average schmuck who has barely any conception of it, and even that which they know of they fear abjectly. To suggest that they would be affected more profoundly seems strange to me.

I personally would rule that it doesn't affect them. Even if they can "sense" the Navigator's presence, and that he is opening his third eye to the fullest, they cannot "see" it because they no longer possess sight.

Except the effect doesn't target their vision. It targets the minds of those who see it. Flash-bangs, etc, those specifily target vision. The Navigator's power doesn't reqire the target to have vision, only that the target be able to see the eye. And that's exactly what the Astropath's special rule allows, it allows them to see without vision.

I see where this is going. I figured there would be a problem deciding on this. So I think I will give them the Bonus of looking away, no matter where they are standing....they could be looking at the Navigator, but get the bonus as if they were looking away.

Now second question, still on Astropaths. Can an Astropath use Psyker abilities from Dark Heresy?

Personally I think that blind mystics who can see better than non-blind mystics and don't get any of the normal drawbacks from vision is rather lame.

@Graspar

Personally I think that blind mystics who can see better than non-blind mystics and don't get any of the normal drawbacks from vision is rather lame.

While I agree with you in general, that's not the question here. (Also, it would be rather stupid to incorporate truly blind astropaths as a main character class in a game)

@CrazyJimmy

Now second question, still on Astropaths. Can an Astropath use Psyker abilities from Dark Heresy?

Not according to RAW. Astropath techniques are organized differently than psyker powersl.

I suppose that "into the storm" will adapt most DH psyker powers to the RT system. Some people made some pretty good conversion work on this forum.

While I agree with you in general, that's not the question here. (Also, it would be rather stupid to incorporate truly blind astropaths as a main character class in a game)

True, but it could just be blind mystics who can se like everyone else, not better. Or one could give all astropaths a limited ability to see say within 50m and an actual power to manifest for beyond that range which would give them a chance to fail a sustain roll during something crucial and either incur general penalties for psychic powers of force them to not attack or shoot lightning at someone for a round before long range combat.

I don't mind that astropaths can see, I'm just not sure it's a good idea to give the blind mystics the ability to do better than everyone else at seeing.

Graspar said:

Until I had RT i'd assumed they were like blind to all intents and purposes. Of course they like super pskers (albeit super specialist) so that can pretty much explain anything away and it would make RPing a total fecker.

In my games, I stated that astropaths are blind and need help with their daily life (like a servitor for example). But astropaths transcendent somehow overcame this weakness and are an evolution of the astropath "state" that only a few can attain.

Regarding the effect of some navigator powers on them I am hesitant: the lidless eye use the third eye to put the target in contact with the Warp, leading to some terrible trauma. As this lead to energy damage, I think the trauma isn't only mental. But the power state that people tying not to look into the eye have a +30 to resist and an astropath mind is trained to be in contact with the Warp. A total immunity to the power is too powerful, after all the astropath "blind sight" work almost as a normal sight (same vision arc, blocked by wall, cannot see through clothing... you though of it, just admit it , etc.), it just have some advantages. So I think astropaths have to "dodge" (not "look" into the navigator eye) the power to benefit from the +30. But, as they are warp manipulation specialist to, I apply their psy rating x 5 as a defense bonus against the power (like against psychic power, x 10 with the right talent) and I consider that they aren't "attracted" by the third eye like normal people are. This allows them to resist very well to the power, but do not give them a total immunity.

This came up today, in our session, and I had just walked into a room full of Astropaths and opened my eye for an old Lidless Stare. And nothing happen.

It's an interesting discussion, look at the Elutrian Devotees, navigators kitted out to deal with psykers (and Astropaths). They get their own power for it which seems to imply that Lidless Stare doesn't function, look how it doesn't use line of sight in the same way.

The Inquisition War trilogy had a scene where an Astropath was gazing into the Third Eye of a Navigator without any ill effects. The Inquisition War series were the first ever 40K novels, and a lot of things are non-canon by now. But on the other hand, as far as I know they had the first ever appearance of the Third Eye in Navigators, prior to that they were just a variation of Psykers.

I have no idea if any source material in Novels or Sourcebooks has covered this since.

That's one of the few things from Inquisitor's Trilogy that's worth anything. That and it is still the most descriptive trilogy of books for the setting of 40k that I've read to date.

There's a lot of weird stuff going on in it, but the Navigator Astropath relationship seems very symbiotic when you look at it from a different perspective.

And what they do with the Navigator's third eye is pretty interesting as well.