Hey people,

Playing around in the new App I noticed that the N'Pup can have afterburners and InertialD's for no cost. Is that correct?

Obviously it's docked till the YV666 goes down, but still it's cool. A very janky Z95..

Almost surely some sort of glitch. Since it doesn't have an initiative, initiative-priced upgrades are breaking.

Some guidance from FFG would actually be handy here. However, the most natural thing to do would be to price any initiative-based upgrades at the initiative of the Hound's Tooth.

The Nashtah Pup is in the awkward position of having no initiative (or if you will, a value of "n/a" or "tbd"). Since the card itself doesn't have a core value, it messes with the code of squad builders. There are three possible interpretations on how to price out those upgrades, then...

1. Option one is, of course, to consider the Nashtah Pup to have the same initiative as its carrier ship (i.e. the YV-666 that has the Hound's Tooth upgrade). This is logical and consistent with the way the ship works.
2. The second possibility is to treat its initiative as zero until it comes into play. While not ideal, it does have some merit: the abilities printed on cards are inactive until a ship is actually in play (unless stated otherwise). To that end, until the Nashtah Pup hits the table, there is nothing to indicate its initiative.
3. That, of course, leads to the third option... the Nashtah Pup has an UNDEFINED initiative. Since it has NO value (instead of the integer value we expect), it simply cannot equip any initiative-based upgrades. The cost is undefined. You might as well divide by zero while you're at it.

...no... WAIT. DON'T DIVIDE BY ZER...

Or it costs zero! The app is official, after all... (writing a line of code to link the NP's ini to that of the YV666 with HT upgrade is EASY)

They don't FAQ it then...

Personally I don't think Bossk's little Z95 escape craft would break the game with free ABs and IDs... It definitely makes it cool and 'escapy' as he looks to throw off pursuers..

Edit: One would imagine that the NPup, as a unique ship for the app (due to ini and HT req), would have been identified as a special case (by the Product owner for the devs) and would have been QA tested, therefore. The app has definitely been QA tested this time (remove Ezra from a Maul list...).

Not glitch, I say.

if I were running an event where this question came up, without further guidance, I'd rule that Nashtah Pup cannot equip upgrades that are priced by initiative because Nashtah Pup does not have an initiative score during list building.

2 hours ago, Maui. said:

if I were running an event where this question came up, without further guidance, I'd rule that Nashtah Pup cannot equip upgrades that are priced by initiative because Nashtah Pup does not have an initiative score during list building.

And I would reply "here is the official app. It is listed and costed at zero points. You are overriding a legitimate choice that they have costed at zero."

If I had paid to fly to the event and that was my only list, I'd be tempted to sue. It would be a pure personal judgement call overriding the legitimate (for now) option.

This is not hard to code. Seriously. It is zero points (for now).

38 minutes ago, Larky Bobble said:

And I would reply "here is the official app. It is listed and costed at zero points. You are overriding a legitimate choice that they have costed at zero."

If I had paid to fly to the event and that was my only list, I'd be tempted to sue. It would be a pure personal judgement call overriding the legitimate (for now) option.

This is not hard to code. Seriously. It is zero points (for now).

Oh, boy. I mean I can't really tell you what to do or how to behave, but at the same time, don't throw tantrums at event judges. They're doing their best to run the event smoothly.

Threatening litigation over a judge's ruling at a plastic pew-pews event is very, very silly. Even before you take into account that, in this particular case, if it's the only list you brought, you can literally just drop the two offending upgrades and run your list just fine.

Lastly, for whatever it's worth, the squad builder app is not allowing me to equip either Afterburners or ID on the Nashtah Pup.

Been an interesting day. But anyway, If a judge at at tourney overrides official products (points costs) on a personal call with no prior warning, I would want my money back. All of it. One places faith in products and those who make them and the judge has a duty to follow that. He cannot change Soontirs cost on a personal call if the official app displays the cost. This is slightly grey, but it is the official app.

Anyway. I finally actually equipped them. It equips them in mine. The ABs are cool at zero. It shows the zero when equipped. Bit the IBs when equipped show a blank cost.

So it is a glitch after all.

QA!

1 hour ago, Larky Bobble said:

Been an interesting day. But anyway, If a judge at at tourney overrides official products (points costs) on a personal call with no prior warning, I would want my money back. All of it. One places faith in products and those who make them and the judge has a duty to follow that. He cannot change Soontirs cost on a personal call if the official app displays the cost. This is slightly grey, but it is the official app.

Anyway. I finally actually equipped them. It equips them in mine. The ABs are cool at zero. It shows the zero when equipped. Bit the IBs when equipped show a blank cost.

So it is a glitch after all.

QA!

Whenever I try to put Afterburners on the Nashtah Pup, the app allows the upgrade to be selected, but when you try to save the ship the app lists an error and the ship is not saved to the list.

It's also worth noting that the Cost PDFs are typically considered to be the absolute authority on ship & upgrade pricing and legality, in cases when there's a discrepancy with the squad builder app. Given that the PDFs have no information on how to price an initiative-scaled upgrade for a ship without initiative, it stands to reason that those upgrades can't be played legally. It's a bit like trying to charge your car battery by plugging an extension cord into the gas tank... the functionality just isn't there.

I'm not arguing that the Nashtah Pup should be outright disallowed from using those upgrades! In fact, I don't really see a problem with equipping them at zero on a ship that's at 75% health as soon as it hits the battlefield. In the current game scenario, though, it's unclear what the answer is, or what it's supposed to be. Lacking further FFG/AMG direction, it's up to tournament judges & marshals to adjudicate the matter, for Official Play purposes... and if someone is unwilling to accept their rulings, perhaps those people should not be playing in tournaments.

Don't worry. Never have, never will.

But there are people that spend setious cash on attending tourneys. It's something that should be ruled (or fixed in app) so as to avoid conflict.

don't worry. just like @emeraldbeacon has already mentioned, it's not an issue. you cannot equip the pup with afterburners, since the ship cannot be saved to your squad that way. you need to be able to have a functioning squad in the official app to be able to attend a tourney with it. it's just a bug.

General advice: if you're unsure about a rule, or if there's a gray-area rules interaction of some kind that is relevant to your list, you should absolutely contact the event's judge(s) ahead of time to see how they will rule so that there aren't any surprises on game day. This has the nifty side benefit of allowing the judge to research the specific question if they haven't already, get the opinion of other judges, etc. The rules are a big and complicated place, and if a judge isn't prepared for a specific question there's always a chance that even an experienced and knowledgeable judge will make a mistake; it happens to the best of us.

All good advice.

But I can equip a zero cost ABs to my pup. Fair enough, it doesn't save. But were it to have saved a zero cost AB and ID, it is not a doubt in the rules, it would be using the official app for allocated options and points.

There are those advocating that judge overrides official products and costs in tourney. That is dangerous, as a precedent.

5 minutes ago, Larky Bobble said:

But I can equip a zero cost ABs to my pup. Fair enough, it doesn't save. But were it to have saved a zero cost AB and ID, it is not a doubt in the rules, it would be using the official app for allocated options and points.

There are those advocating that judge overrides official products and costs in tourney. That is dangerous, as a precedent.

I'm not throwing shade at all, but... given the track record and history of FFG's handling of the previous app, and knowing that they developed this new one... I'm very wary of calling the app the definitive source for all game information, until they can provide a stable & accurate product for multiple consecutive months.

As for judges overruling costs? I don't think anyone is pushing that line of thought. Rather, the fact that you asked whether zero-cost upgrades were correct, is clear evidence that there is confusion to the appropriate point values. Lacking a clear and definitive answer on the point values (which is absolutely the case here), the gaming community relies on the judgement of tournament officials to make the call whenever there's a dispute, or confusion over the rules. The Judge, therefore, would not be overruling something, but defining a situation that was previously undefined, all within the limited scope of that event.

7 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I'm not throwing shade at all, but...

I'll throw shade.

7 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

All good advice.

But I can equip a zero cost ABs to my pup. Fair enough, it doesn't save. But were it to have saved a zero cost AB and ID, it is not a doubt in the rules, it would be using the official app for allocated options and points.

This is entirely wrong and comes across as someone trying to use an improper exploit, like crooked dice or an extra-long range ruler.

It comes across as someone trying to cheat.

Honestly, I gave you a very good solution. Nashtah Pup cannot be used without Hound's Tooth, and Hound's Tooth always has a defined initiative value, so use that for the price of Initiative-based upgrades. Now, I'm inclined to rule it out--because you specifically have been a pushy jerk about this. There's merit to @emeraldbeacon 's #2 and what @Maui. is saying, where the Nashtah Pup simply doesn't have an initiative, and can't equip initiative-based upgrades. An undefined cost being presumed as "0 points" has no basis anywhere in the rules of the game.

Demanding money back because a judge wouldn't let you cheat would be an absolute ******* move.

7 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

There are those advocating that judge overrides official products and costs in tourney. That is dangerous, as a precedent.

So, look at the official points PDF. Go to the listing for Afterburners. Is there a price for "*" initiative? No, there isn't. Is there any initiative where the price of Afterburners is 0? No, there isn't.

A judge isn't overriding ****ing anything; there's nothing to overrule.

The dangerous precedent would actually be letting you get your way. Then any players out there would be empowered to cheat as much as they could. That, not a judge trying to clarify what is 100% surely just a computer glitch, would be truly dangerous to X-Wing.

Any judge would be perfectly justified to disqualify you from a tournament for unsporting conduct.

9 hours ago, Larky Bobble said:

Don't worry. Never have, never will.

You know what else just about any judge (and certainly any X-Wing judge I've ever met) in X-Wing would do for any player with a list with glitched points? Offer to let them change their list. If a player didn't have the upgrades or ships, they'd lead a whip-around, see if anyone else at the tournament has the spares to help out. Because that's the X-Wing community.

Getting preemptively mad, threatening legal action, over not being able to exploit a computer glitch? And acting snobbish about not playing in tournaments while disparaging some of the best folks in this game? I take that personally, because you're insulting folks I'd call friends. All the folks I've met running tournaments in X-Wing are good folks, trying to be fair and just with everyone, trying to be helpful in *any* way they can.

Who is talking about cheating? Or even exploiting...

I am talking about customers buying and using FFG products that are communicated as being their gold atandard for squad building for tourneys. I am talking about selecting legitimate options (as an new 'ignorant' customer) from said product.

To then have legimate options overridden by a judge is wrong. Absolutely wrong.

You may be focused on the Npup debate. Originally it appeared to be a valid choice. If it had saved at zero cost, it would be. If a vet uses it, who knows all the ins ans outs of the game, it could be considered an exploit. But FFG or whoever haven't ruled it, it could be that it should actually count as zero initiative as it's not on the board at setup, who knows?

But if the official app has options listed that the tourney organizer has no concrete evindence as to being wrong, overriding the app is bad faith. They have a duty to respect FFG products and the clients that buy them.

(The debate is really about the last paragraph now...)

And yeah, bad faith is a legal term that allows you to sue.

If there's a legitimate question and FFG hasn't made a ruling, it is up to that event marshal's discretion. When you're at an event, you don't have to agree with the ruling (judges can be wrong sometimes, just like anybody else) but you do have to abide by it. Per official x-wing tournament regulations, the marshal's rulings are final. For this reason (and many others already stated) any time there is some apparent wiggle room in the rules, where things aren't crystal clear, you're best off asking the marshal before the day of the event, or at the very least packing a suitable alternative for yourself.

This specific situation (Nashtah Pup and initiative-priced upgrades) represents an unresolved rules question and until the matter is clarified by the devs, it would be up to each event's marshal to determine how to resolve this interaction. Personally, I would disallow it for reasons already stated.

It's pretty clearly an app glitch. @Maui. makes a good point that the Pup doesn't have an initiative at setup, but it's intuitive that it has the initiative of its carrier ship (as it will gain upon emergency deployment).

On 11/27/2020 at 11:38 AM, meffo said:

don't worry. just like @emeraldbeacon has already mentioned, it's not an issue. you cannot equip the pup with afterburners, since the ship cannot be saved to your squad that way. you need to be able to have a functioning squad in the official app to be able to attend a tourney with it. it's just a bug.

Is this true? I can't find in the tourney rules that you have to use the official app. Wouldn't you be able to build an app on paper using the PDF of the points list? Under this philosophy you also can't equip VTG on a ship with dorsal turret or ion cannon turret because the app won't currently allow you to do so. Admittedly, my tournament experience is only 2 events deep, so I'm legitimately asking.

I don't know. I'm just arguing hypothetically from the perspective of someone who once read that the FFG app was for made for tourneys and that you would upload your list through said app to participate. That may not be true now given the initial app's flop; I don't go to tourneys.

Upon that, I base my argument. I wouldn't cross referencie a PDF doc with variable costs to see if the app is true though. I would just turn up...

Edit: I would have no problem with being shown the official PDF doc to justify a decision.

As far as I can tell, the tournament rules are agnostic on how you actually build your list. They don't mention the app or the PDFs at all. They do, however, state that the Head Judge of an event has the final say on rulings. So it would be up to whoever is the Head Judge at the tournament.

The (admittedly small number of) tournaments I have been to have generally required either a written list, or a list submitted to something like Tabletop TO. I've never seen use of the official app be required.

Personally I think attaching initiative-scaled upgrades to the Pup is technically impossible, though I don't think it would be problematic to rule that it is treated as either initiative 0 or as the initiative of the Hound's Tooth.

10 hours ago, Yank01 said:

It's pretty clearly an app glitch. @Maui. makes a good point that the Pup doesn't have an initiative at setup, but it's intuitive that it has the initiative of its carrier ship (as it will gain upon emergency deployment).

Is this true? I can't find in the tourney rules that you have to use the official app. Wouldn't you be able to build an app on paper using the PDF of the points list? Under this philosophy you also can't equip VTG on a ship with dorsal turret or ion cannon turret because the app won't currently allow you to do so. Admittedly, my tournament experience is only 2 events deep, so I'm legitimately asking.

oh, i've been to tourneys where a printed version of the list from the official app was required, but it's definitely not common practice. the official app is mentioned in the RR several times when you read about squad building, but not as a requirement. i've been to a number of bigger tourneys (three system opens, a couple of regionals and nationals back in x-wing 1.0) - and the tournament organizers will always enforce rules on how you can build your list and how you must present it. it will differ from tourney to tourney, though. lists will always be checked by the organizers when you register and submit your list.

so the fact that the official app currently has a bug when trying to equip some upgrades to the nashtah pup is not an issue what so ever. it's a software issue and maybe even extending to a marketing issue, sure. but it's not a rules issue or something that could ever pose any problems in a tournament. if there was ever a tournament that didn't use squad lists, it could be a problem, but that seems extremely unlikely. what a weird tournament that would be. i doubt people would even be willing to participate if you didn't have to use a squad list.