It is still very early after RRG 2.0 dropped and a lot is in motion. Still, what do you think will be the future meta lists? I'm interested in lists that can succeed on the most cutthroat level and which we will be complaining about in 2-3 months 🙃 .

GAR:
They lost a lot with the update. The meta-lists did not only lose 30-40 points (~an activation) but also 5-6 Aim Tokens for the alpha strike and standby-sharing for defense. That will shake things up.

Units:
- Commander: Rex is still good and will probably lead most armies. But since he lost a lot of punch, Obi-Wan becomes attracive again. I could even see Aayla Secure become a thing.
- Operatives: R2 will still be a regular but not a staple any more. C3PO will be taken more often. Padme can still share standby, people might make use of that. I could even see her with Aayla Secura as Commander
- Corps: Phase IIs will still be the go-to guys. But Phase Is with heavies are now in good pricing relative to Phase IIs and will be an alternative to keep activation counts high. Fives in there for courage and order. I could even see clone Captain/Specialist plus DP-23 for Alpa Strikes.
- Special Forces: Strike teams will still be everywhere. Double-Full ARC is gone, an occasional single one might still be a thing (with Padmes standby for example)
- Support: The slot remains dead
- Heavy: Tank is super viable. Mostly paired with Rex or even just Padme.

Lists:
- "Rex-Star" will still be a thing, but it will not rock competitive anymore
- Tank lists will be popular. One Tank with either Rex or Padme (+ R2) and Clones.
- Obi-Wan will get a come-back. Probably as solo hero (maybe R2) supported by Troops.

CIS
They are the big winner of the update. They didn't get changed themselves but GAR was hugely trimmed and also the meta-units of the Civil War factions got slight nerfs.

Units:
- Grievous and Dooku will still be equally taken. But we have a new arrival: Tank-Commanders, I think these will be a very popular and successful pick.
- Operatives: Maul is still mostly unexplored but the possibilities are endless. I think he pairs well with a Tank-Commander so he gets a moving cover making him a bit less terrain dependent.
- Corps: 6 B1s will still be the standard. There will be the occasional B2, especially after the tactics droid hits the shelves but ultimately coordinate will win here.
- Special Forces: BX are the most balanced special forces unit. They will be used as Sniper teams, Full squad with sniper and even full naked squads.
- Support: STAPs will be in many lists
- Heavy: Tanks will be all over the place

Lists:
- Tank lists will be dominant, with either commander or Maul or even no Character at all (once the new generic Command-cards are out), supported by full B1s and STAPs/BX
- Force Centered lists are an alternative, usind either Dooku or Maul (or both!) as centerpieces, filling the rest with B1s and BX

Rebels
They got the most buffs to unused units but I don't think any of those will actually be dominant in competitive play. Rebels got the most buff of Clones getting nerfed (making privious builds viable again)

Units:
- Commander: Cassian will still be popular (though he got a minor hit losing turn 0 tokens). Luke will get a comeback (maybe I'm biased here because this is my favorit unit). The occasional Leia might be there as well.
- Operative: R2 will still be a thing, especially paired with C3PO. Rebels want dodges more than ever. Sabine wil also be more popular again (she got a minor buff with the darksaber discount). K2 is still great in Cassian Lists.
- Corps: Some minor discounts and rules buff to Veterans. But I fear, 3 naked trooper will still be the go to choice with Medic Droids getting more popular again.
- Special Forces: Most updates here but probably with little to no impact (I hope I'm wrong though!). Sniper-Teams will remain a staple to Rebels. But I see Mandos strong in competitive. Clan Wren with Sabine is awesome. Still not sold on Regular Mandos but multiples of them have a good alpha stike, target saturation and objective play.
- Support: Tauntauns will be back! They won with Clone-Castles getting nerfed but they also lost 5 points and extra dodges from scout/Leia-push. AT-RTs are still solid and a cheaper and more reliable option.
- Heavy: Still a hard pass. We might see the occasional taxi-shannanigans but ultimately they will disappear again.

Lists:
- Cassian (maybe Leia) lists with high activation count (R2, K2, 3 naked corps, 2-3 snipers, 0-1 Mandos, 2-3 AT-RTs/Tauntauns)
- Mando-centered Lists. Leia (maybe generic) plus Sabine and Clan Wren and 1-2 extra Mandos.
- Luke Lists with Tauntauns and or Mandos, maybe even Wookies

Empire
Also Empire got the main buff from GAR geting nerfed. Apart from distracting buffs, empire also got a 5 point increase in the Shores+Mortar combo as well as 5 points for Aggressive Tactics.

Units:
- Commander: Iden will still be the go-to gal. She does a lot for her points, though she synergizes very little. Veers (and Krennic to a lesser extent) will be the second option for non Iden-centered lists.
- Operatives: There will always be some Bounty Hunter lists, I doubt that they will succeed on high level though.
- Corps: Snowtroopers and Stormtrooper heavies getting a discount is nice and all but as long as Shores+Mortar is cheaper than the other options with a heavy, they will remain dominant.
- Special Forces: 1-3 sniper teams will remain the main special forces unit. Paired with Iden I could see 1-2 ISFs.
- Support: Probably still rarely used (after initial playing around with Dewbacks).
- Heavy: AT-ST will see more play. It is still a threat and combined with the all critical corps empire can actually take on armor. There will be some play with the Tank as well (better transport and he got a setup buff so he can overlap the deployment zone, gaining a few inches as well as protecting his weak spots). Who could say no to a mobile flame-thrower? But I don't think it is reliable enough to be a dominant piece.

Lists:
- Iden Versio (with or without ISF) and Shoreline.
- Veers/Krennic gunline (Shoreline, Sniper, 0-1 Deathtrooper, AT-ST or Boba Fett or Speeder Bikes)

Faction-Tier-List:
1) CIS
2) GAR/Rebels
4) Empire

i agree with most things here, just a few things i disagree with

the only thing that Rex changed on was his Turn 0 aim, not a huge loss and every unit that scouted with tactical lost it as well.

Vader is going to be a lot more desirable at 20 points cheaper (unit cost and Reflexes going down)

so is palp with force barrier coimg in i think (not sure about this one as it myight just be a waste)

you didnt mention dekas, i think they will be in a lot more lists now they have gone down by 20 points,

naked commando and scout squads will see quite a bit more use i think after their points drop.

I think Empire will switch to a similar theme that the Rebels do. "What power characters can I take along side cheap, supportive stormtroopers". They are going to be able to fit a lot of characters. You just have to figure out which command cards you can live without. Boba's are not necessary, Bossk's are nice, but not required (you may just take 1) They don't have R2 D2 silliness, but Bossk, Iden and Vader make a nasty combo.

Boba and Vader can tackle melee combos. Empire is still the king of easy Impact, and deal naturally better with armor than any other unit. They can generate Aim tokens pretty easy as well (not like GAR) but they can get them.

5 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

I think Empire will switch to a similar theme that the Rebels do. "What power characters can I take along side cheap, supportive stormtroopers". They are going to be able to fit a lot of characters. You just have to figure out which command cards you can live without. Boba's are not necessary, Bossk's are nice, but not required (you may just take 1) They don't have R2 D2 silliness, but Bossk, Iden and Vader make a nasty combo.

Boba and Vader can tackle melee combos. Empire is still the king of easy Impact, and deal naturally better with armor than any other unit. They can generate Aim tokens pretty easy as well (not like GAR) but they can get them.

thats a fair assessment of where i see empire being as well atm,

I think that GAR and IMP both generate a similar number of Aims but GAR use them far more efficiently as they can keep it for later and let a another unit spend it to reroll 2 dice instead of rerolling just 1

I think Rebels are going to be (like always) a little swingy.

I can see them all going out first round of a tourney if the dice get real cold, but I could also see them beating everyone in a large tourney.

The Rebels have got some really nice pieces and careful play with a couple of gambles at the end of the game can really swing a close loss to a win. Getting them to last to that last turn in a tourney is key. Luke has always been solid in both iterations. Cassian/K2 are great together. I've used Jyn with those 2 to some success and she and the pathfinders got cheaper. Sabine is a solid objective scorer and R2 is still R2. I could even see Chewie and some Wookiees being used well, taking some games over. Tournaments are a different beast than casual play and the timed element usually means you're playing a 4-5 round game instead of all 6 depending on your opponent.

I'm assuming that's the Meta you're talking about. Otherwise, I expect to see everything that dropped in points on the table.

8 hours ago, SailorMeni said:

Empire

Also Empire got the main buff from GAR geting nerfed. Apart from distracting buffs, empire also got a 5 point increase in the Shores+Mortar combo as well as 5 points for Aggressive Tactics.

Units:
- Commander: Iden will still be the go-to gal. She does a lot for her points, though she synergizes very little. Veers (and Krennic to a lesser extent) will be the second option for non Iden-centered lists.
- Operatives: There will always be some Bounty Hunter lists, I doubt that they will succeed on high level though.
- Corps: Snowtroopers and Stormtrooper heavies getting a discount is nice and all but as long as Shores+Mortar is cheaper than the other options with a heavy, they will remain dominant.
- Special Forces: 1-3 sniper teams will remain the main special forces unit. Paired with Iden I could see 1-2 ISFs.
- Support: Probably still rarely used (after initial playing around with Dewbacks).
- Heavy: AT-ST will see more play. It is still a threat and combined with the all critical corps empire can actually take on armor. There will be some play with the Tank as well (better transport and he got a setup buff so he can overlap the deployment zone, gaining a few inches as well as protecting his weak spots). Who could say no to a mobile flame-thrower? But I don't think it is reliable enough to be a dominant piece.

Lists:
- Iden Versio (with or without ISF) and Shoreline.
- Veers/Krennic gunline (Shoreline, Sniper, 0-1 Deathtrooper, AT-ST or Boba Fett or Speeder Bikes)

Faction-Tier-List:
1) CIS
2) GAR/Rebels
4) Empire

Agreed. Other than the soft win of GAR being brought into line, the Empire definitely got the raw end of the deal here. The Empire was the weakest faction, and was desperately clinging to Shores/Mortars to be relevant, and these got nerfed. While I understand why they were, the Empire didn't get the real buffs it needed for this nerf to be justified. Shores/Mortar are still the cheapest way to put Corps units on the table, but now the empire has to pay a tax to do that. So while other units got cheaper, that cheapness barely compensates for the price hikes. Many of the lists I've been toying around with are barely cheaper if at all then before the change, and truly competitive lists are now over 800 points (and this in a meta where the Empire was fighting to just be relevant). One list I had with the ATST was 800 points before the changes, and I was hoping the changes would free the list up to make it more competitive. The list is now 799, lol. This is not an edge case scenario either. Another example is double Bounty. Boba is 15 points less! Yay! 3x Shores/Mortar are 15 points more...Yay! It's a wash. If Double Bounty wasn't competitive before, it won't be now, because it costs literally the same. And remember, if you take something other than Shores/Mortars, you are paring MORE, which means you are paying WAY more than before the RRG comparatively. Whereas Shores/Mortar was 120 points before, 2 Stormies with the T21 now (a pretty solid squad) are 136. No matter what you do, the Empire is being taxed to put Corps units on the table. Empire lists are still going to be dependent on 2-3 sets of Shores/Mortars, and that's now 10-15 more points, making the point cuts in other areas relatively meaningless.

Also, I feel the Empire needed some card changes, which they did for Rebels (Surge-Crit for T-47; Range 4 for Vets; Scale, Duelist, and Lethal for Wookies; Lethal for Chewie), but they gave the Empire none of these. The EWeb needs Range 4 to be meaningful. The ATST needed a reworking of it's weapon ranges, and probably costs (all the weapon upgrades should be 5 cheaper). Vader needs something, ANYTHING, other than costing less and still sucking as bad. From day one people have noticed how poorly he functions, not simply that he was a steep price to pay. He does not function. Now he does it for less. Yay! It's always a bad sign for a unit if it NEEDS to take an upgrade to function. You want to take upgrades to make something awesome be more awesome, not pay a tax to make a unit usable. Endurance is stapled to Vader and Dewbacks to make them functional, and Saber Throw, Reflexes, and even Push are on Vader mainly to make him function (Normally Push is amazing, but on Vader it's main use is to pull guys closer with one move left so you can actually get into melee, thus it functions more as a 'fix' card on Vader than a 'power' card as it does on other Jedi).

Really, the only Imperial List that got any real points reduction is if you lean heavily into Vader and Dewbacks. While I believe that Flame-Dewbacks may have a place as a flanker in a list with another major threat, leaning on them in a Vader list remains to be seen to be viable. The only other list that got significant reductions would be an Iden list that goes Triple Full Scout (saves a whopping 36 points), but it remains to be seen if this is viable in anyway. They hit like a truck but die as fast as that same truck on fire falling off a cliff.

In short, I feel the game is approaching a point where a 2.0 is necessary. Alot of the Empire units need major redesigns. Boba Fett needs his cards to be upgrades, and needs cards that given him action efficiency. Veers 2 Pip sucks in 99% of lists. Vader needs a massive overhaul and rethinking. The ATST probably needs red dice saves (adjusting health accordingly) and both the ATST and the tank need the Critical keyword to make it possible to choose a different pilot than the Surge-Hit guy. Things like the Rocket Launcher needs a keyword like Pierce but only for vehicles. Scouts need to be exciting the way the new Special Forces are, and really should have Red dice (they are wearing more armor than the ISF who get semi-surging Red dice). And finally, both the Rebels and the Imperials need an identity, something across all lists. GAR has it's token sharing, CIS it's order passing. The Empire needs something like this. Most units in this game have an analog in the other factions, so faction identity in legion can't really be tied to units, but needs to be something 'above' units, like it is in GAR and CIS. Anyways, this was a bit of a tangent/rant, and I love the game, but am hoping that the move to AMG may result in a 2.0 that addresses these concerns.

1 hour ago, SirCormac said:

hoping that the move to AMG may result in a 2.0

I agree with everything in the post.

That said, this is gonna be a hard sell. The game is 2 and a half years old. If people rage-quit X-wing after 5+ years of collecting over a new edition, there's a good chance Legion would suffer similarly.


I'm hoping AMG takes a more methodical approach to balance. I understand that the rapid release schedule made it more difficult to really nail down a perfect balance, but I think in their passion for the game the dev team missed the mark altogether and the errata changes are only going to get bigger. We're already changing key components on unit cards, how long before we have to start hole punching upgrade slots off of unit cards? Legion is facing all the same issues late game X-wing was in about a third of the time.


I'm not looking forward to watching the local Imperial players slowly realize that the errata didn't help anywhere they needed it to. Some were already at a breaking point with how bad imperials were against clones and droids, I'm concerned this might cause them to sell out.

The heavy weapons for Rebel and Empire core units needed to be reduced more. Naked Rebel Troopers and Shoretroopers are still the most efficient options for their respective armies.

A Stormtrooper squad with the DLT-19 (the cheapest non HH-12 weapon) is 66 points. Two of them come to 132 points for two activations.

A Shoretrooper squad with the T-21b and a DF-90 Mortar Trooper come to 125 points (87 + 38) for two activations.

Rebels at least might shake things up by playing naked Fleet Troopers in place of some naked Rebel Troopers.

If I am going to look at the new Meta I am going to start with activations, specially 10. GAR will have to make compromises to hit 10 in a way they didn't have to before but still can. CIS can easily, Rebels and Imps can do that and more.

The second thing is what units do we expect to dominate? The point changes are a big deal but the field commander change is bigger. Now two factions can field a tank as their leader, wow!! I totally see armor in all fashions on the battlefield now with multiple heavies. Also with the nerfs to GAR a lot of their logical builds involve the Saber now. The CIS already had a two two tank build, now it can do it at 10 activations. You will still see the 3 sniper activations as standard in these lists.

New Meta units IMO (as in units you will see used consistently due to cost and effectivesness).

Gar: Saber Tank, Phase 1s, ARC strike teams

Empire: DLT storm trooper, Veers, Occupier tank, Strike teams

Rebels: Cassian, ATRT, Sabine

CIS: Tank, STAPs, strike teams

I agree the CIS is the best faction, but the other 3 all have warts right now on their list building making them all close IMO.

My community is mostly enthusiastic about the Empire changes so far. I give them 2-3 weeks before reality sinks in.

51 minutes ago, Uetur said:

The point changes are a big deal but the field commander change is bigger. Now two factions can field a tank as their leader, wow!!

So I have been thinking that it is odd that they didn't errata Weiss and maybe even Wedge to be Field Commanders, just so every faction could have the ability to do that. But then I remembered that we have two more GCW releases to be announced soon, and I felt that there was a strong implication that they would be vehicles. I would bet quite a bit that this is the case, and that both expansions (most likely an Imperial Troop Transport and a T2-B Repulsor Tank) will include a Field Commander pilot.

1 hour ago, tdcthulu said:

Rebels at least might shake things up by playing naked Fleet Troopers in place of some naked Rebel Troopers.

just out of curiosity, why? You could proxy models here for esthetics regardless. The fleet troopers are less survivable and always have been.

The offensive output has a higher ceiling with fleets, but not by much and getting them into position to use their range 2 weapons is always iffy, even with 6 units of them.

Unless you want dlt20, naked troopers is probably the only way to run Rebels since day 1. I still don't think the z6 at range 3 is better than the dlt20 with range 4 and critical.

15 minutes ago, buckero0 said:

just out of curiosity, why? You could proxy models here for esthetics regardless. The fleet troopers are less survivable and always have been.

The offensive output has a higher ceiling with fleets, but not by much and getting them into position to use their range 2 weapons is always iffy, even with 6 units of them.

Unless you want dlt20, naked troopers is probably the only way to run Rebels since day 1. I still don't think the z6 at range 3 is better than the dlt20 with range 4 and critical.

I'm not suggesting it is super likely, just a possibility.

See Dave Kingsley's list from the August GenCon online tournament: https://thefifthtrooper.com/gencon-online-top-8/

It had two naked Rebel Troopers and then two Fleet Troopers with Scatter Guns. I could see a similar list doing well with two naked Fleet Troopers and then two with Scatter Guns.

Generally what has changed is that GAR is less likely to delete units from range allowing the likes of Tauntauns and Fleets Troopers to close the distance.

27 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

So I have been thinking that it is odd that they didn't errata Weiss and maybe even Wedge to be Field Commanders, just so every faction could have the ability to do that. But then I remembered that we have two more GCW releases to be announced soon, and I felt that there was a strong implication that they would be vehicles. I would bet quite a bit that this is the case, and that both expansions (most likely an Imperial Troop Transport and a T2-B Repulsor Tank) will include a Field Commander pilot.

I totally agree.

Rebels will be surprising people all year with their list diversity and are a durable heavy away from being able to do everything pretty **** well.

I see Rebels and CIS vying for top spot with GAR and Imperials both very close behind.

52 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

So I have been thinking that it is odd that they didn't errata Weiss and maybe even Wedge to be Field Commanders, just so every faction could have the ability to do that. But then I remembered that we have two more GCW releases to be announced soon, and I felt that there was a strong implication that they would be vehicles.

It was an oversight as far as I can tell. Weiss should have been from the get-go.

I could possibly see the same for Ryder Azadi since he was the leader of the rebel cell there on Lothal. Wedge definitely had that cache from the old Legends books Rogue Squadron etc, but I think they dropped the ball or ran out of time, or whatever.

Definitely need better generic command cards for this at some point.

6 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

7 hours ago, SirCormac said:

hoping that the move to AMG may result in a 2.0

I agree with everything in the post.

That said, this is gonna be a hard sell. The game is 2 and a half years old. If people rage-quit X-wing after 5+ years of collecting over a new edition, there's a good chance Legion would suffer similarly.

I would say a 1.5 may be a way better option. X-wing 2.0 I think is in a really great spot and Armada 1.5 is coming out next week so that is wait and see.

I figure the best option would either be a card pack, straight up move it all online in some data base, or a printable pdf???? That way they clean up all the errata and point changes and at the same time change some of the units/rules that just don't work.

Don't think it would piss off that many people since it would really just rebuild older broken units that people already dislike. Pretty much leave CIS and GAR alone, but Rebels and Empire could get a faction mechanic and rework on Han, Vader, etc. If they come out the gate with fixing the things still broken then I think it would do a lot to settle a lot of fear we all have if they can handle the game.

For example the airspeeder (I don't play Empire lol). Is it better now? **** ya. Is it probably only mediocre and the physical card is almost useless with the changes? Pretty much. Soooooooooo bam some new app or card pack comes out to clean up all the changes and maybe try and make it top tier.

6 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I'm hoping AMG takes a more methodical approach to balance. I understand that the rapid release schedule made it more difficult to really nail down a perfect balance, but I think in their passion for the game the dev team missed the mark altogether and the errata changes are only going to get bigger. We're already changing key components on unit cards, how long before we have to start hole punching upgrade slots off of unit cards? Legion is facing all the same issues late game X-wing was in about a third of the time.

Legion coming without any safety valve to change points or upgrades or abilities was the original sin of the game. I will never understand that decision, especially after X-wing 1.0 and Armada 1.0 showed everyone the horror. Just should of left the cards blank and gave us a sharpie to fill in the spots. And as you said Legion came out the gate with units on fire lol and it sort of gotten worse as time went on. Made all the more annoying that X-wing 2.0 does everything so much better with the pdfs, DISPITE their trash app that nobody really uses.

Rebels got a lot of changes, but not all are game changing.

Jyn feels like a really strong command choice now when she is down to 100p for courage 3. Pathfinders with their lower cost and hp on heavy is working even better with Jyn and Cassian. Sniper teams will still be top tier, but both clan wren and pathfinders are good choices in that slot.

Wookies, commando full squad and fleets still feel meh. Sure they got a bit cheaper, but so did most other stuff as well.

I think the rebel troopers and veterans are more attractive choices now though, I almost never went with makes troopers before and still won prime level tournaments. Now they are cheaper and in veterans case even better. Airspeeder is perhaps not top tier, but worth it's points now IMO.

Interesting to see the rebels best units only getting a mild increase in tauntauns and R2.

GAR got hit hard, but I think they will still perform well. Empire got a mixed bag, will see if occupier transport becomes as real thing. CIS got few, but interesting point reductions and I think are the secret winner with field commander and having GAR toned down a bit.

I think the game is in a good place now, but the amount of changes cards and points are getting high. Gonna have half my cards reprinted to avoid misunderstandings.

With pathfinder units at 62 with duck and cover and their long range gun i think unless you're strapped for points, they have a place in my next list without a heavy.

I've never been super impressed with the rebel sniper

Jyn was good , but had lackluster cards and was 35-40pts too expensive. Now they giver a weapon for free, reduced her by 30pt and made DnC 4pts and she feels really close. Action economy is still tough but add in Cassian and K2 and she gets so much support from them, they are a wrecking ball team

19 hours ago, 5particus said:

the only thing that Rex changed on was his Turn 0 aim, not a huge loss and every unit that scouted with tactical lost it as well.

That's 5-6 aim tokens for a Range 4 attack on the first activation of the game. Also you can't aggressively scout out with the unit, shoot and then retreat into safety anymore. That is no minor change. Rex can't lean back and hand out standbys anymore either.

19 hours ago, 5particus said:

you didnt mention dekas, i think they will be in a lot more lists now they have gone down by 20 points,

I fear they suffer the same fate as B2s: Coordinate is just too important. I'd love to be wrong though 😉

15 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I'm not looking forward to watching the local Imperial players slowly realize that the errata didn't help anywhere they needed it to.

I would not count out Empire at this point. Yes, they didn't profit too much directly from the update (they even got more expensive), but they profit a lot by clones being weaker and if the meta really shifts towards vehicles, Empire might be a really good counter. No other faction is better against armor.

2 minutes ago, SailorMeni said:

That's 5-6 aim tokens for a Range 4 attack on the first activation of the game. Also you can't aggressively scout out with the unit, shoot and then retreat into safety anymore. That is no minor change. Rex can't lean back and hand out standbys anymore either.

My point was the Rex specifically didnt lose anything, all of his losses were suffered due to changes to either everyone or to the Clone Trooper Keyword.

2 minutes ago, 5particus said:

My point was the Rex specifically didnt lose anything, all of his losses were suffered due to changes to either everyone or to the Clone Trooper Keyword.

yeah sure. but he is a support character. If everything he supports gets worse, his value sinks indirectly. I never thought that Rex by itself was overpowered, he just profited too much from the clone keyword and the free tokens.

Just now, SailorMeni said:

yeah sure. but he is a support character. If everything he supports gets worse, his value sinks indirectly. I never thought that Rex by itself was overpowered, he just profited too much from the clone keyword and the free tokens.

hmm. i suppose thats fair, i mostly take Rex because he is the cheapest Clone Commander, that is going to change in Jan and could change now with the field commander change