I'm hoping someone can give me clarification of the rules for tank and heavy vehicles. The rules say that tanks have the traits STURDY, CONCUSSIVE FIREPOWER and OVERRUN, but then there doesn't seem to be consistency about how these traits are noted on the reference sheets. For example, the second two traits might be listed, but STURDY isn't. And does the M10 from the Normandy expansion have these three traits because its a tank/heavy vehicle, even though none of them are listed on the reference sheet (just PENETRATION and OPEN TOP).

Please clarify FFG! Cheers.

Sturdy is a Trait that all heavy vehicles have in common, at least this far.

M10 does not have Concussive firepower.

Thanks for that, but I'm still not seeing a consistent application of these traits, and I don't know why some are listed and some aren't on the reference sheets. M10 doesn't have STURDY or CONCUSSIVE FIREPOWER listed - so how do we know that it is the former but not the latter? OVERRRUN isn't listed either, though I assume it has it? The core game tank listings don't have STURDY listed.

In other words, how do we know know what traits a heavy vehicles has and hasn't got? Or am I missing something obvious here?

Sturdy has been incorporated into the rules and is not realy needed as a Trait.

The M10 has Sturdy and overrun.

Thanks for your help. As Overrun isn't listed on the sheet for the M10 (it is on other tank listings) I still think it's very confusing, inconsistent and unclear - but I'll take your word for it I guess!

Hefsgaard said:

Is that an official ruling from FFG or an assumption based on its HV status? I've seen a lot of discussion but nothing concrete.

Thanks.

UniversalHead said:

Thanks for all the hard work and research you put into the game sheets and stats. Love your website!

Keep up the great work.

Hopefully many of your questions will be answered in the forthcoming expansion...the world is waiting.

Whats this talk of Sturdy. Never seen it in the rules. Only transport trucks are treated any different from other vehicles because they have the Fragile trait. So I guess you could say they are un-sturdy while everything else is sturdy, but that is rather round about way of saying it.

Check page 40 of the core rules.

Thanks. I was looking at page 28. And on page 28 within the side panel box it basically says the same thing but does not use the superfluous word "sturdy" since "heavy vehicle" serves the same reminder.

From page 28. " Exception: Being only lightly damaged by enemy op fire does not cause a heavy vehicle to become fatigued."

From page 40. " Sturdy: Being lightly damaged by enemy op fire does not cause a heavy vehicle to become fatigued."

I guess that is why I had forgotten about that so called trait because being a heavy vehicle is really the same trait and that is what they chose to put on the reference sheets. Again I guess the trait Sturdy is superfluous.

All of which would seem to imply that the M10 doesn't have Overrun , as it is expressly mentioned on the other tank listings but not on the M10 listing. Don't you think?

perhaps overun applies to tanks only. Just a guess - but a M10 being a tank destroyer could be less mobile??

Over the last 2 weeks there has been a very long thread that stated with the question does the M10 have overrun. See the thread called M10. In it you will find your answer and some stimulating discussion about tank destroyers. Good ideas were batted around. Stuff about open turrets, TD's not being allowed to use the fire and move action as an optional rule, etc.

Thanks. I searched for M10 but for some reason that didn't come up.

Argh! It's so frustrating when you want a simple answer to a rules question because you want to complete your reference sheet, and insted you get 4 pages of historical discussion and home rules, not to mention contradictorary info from here and Boardgamegeek.

As far as I can tell, no overrun. Sheesh!

UniversalHead said:

All other tanks (Heavy Vehicles) in TOI list overrun, so the ommission for the M10 leads me to believe it doesn't have the capability yet. Hopefully it will be allowed via future ruling with some form of drawback but not for this one to decide...I'm in favor of letting players relearn lessons the hard way. That's one great feature of historical based games.

The M10 thread is on the second page of the forum. Feel free to weigh in with your thoughts. )

Nah - I have no time for long winded rules discussions - it takes long enough to do these reference sheets as it is!

I know what you mean. I spend way to much of my free time doing PC game mods and making modules like my latest one for TOI. A Zuntzu module. In any case I'm very pleased you are updating the TOI reference sheet you made. Now it will include the Normandy stuff. I have to ask are you planning on another update when Fury of the Bear comes out soon?

Oh and about the answer to your questions. The M10 does not have overrun because it is an open top vehicle. It is presumed the crew of the M10 would have to be nuts to charge right in to a mass of infantry. It would just give the infantry free granade throwing practice:)

The M10 does not have Concussive firepower because it is assumed to be carrying all or mostly AP rounds because it's roll was as a tank destroyer. Yes the M10 thread cites cases where the M10 was loaded with HE, but for the sake of balance and to make it feel different from a true tank the designers at FFG removed that trait. So if you want it to be the way FFG intended then no concussive firepower for the M10. It's not an error it was left out.

The M10 is strudy, because it does list it as a Heavy Vehicle. But in any case, why are you bothering to place the trait Sturdy on the new reference sheets anyway? The placing of Heavy Vehicle on the reference sheet already serves that purpose. The word Sturdy is superfluous so leave this confusion off of the reference sheet IMO.

These 3 answers should be official since that's the way they are listed on the reference sheets and FFG has not released errata correcting this. So no mistake should be assumed at this time, right? Also I pointed out the logic for each of the designers choices which makes sense to me.

In conclusion just to be clear.

The M10 does not have overrun because of it's open top.

the M10 does not get concussive because it's primarily loaded with AP. Hence, its replacement trait Penetration.

The M10 is a heavy vehicle so by default it is sturdy.

Lebatron said:

Lebs...don't get me started! )

Seriously...that is correct until FFG fixes these rule problems. )