E-Wing Jousters

By billyyank, in X-Wing Squad Lists

I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on this list.

Two Rogue Squadron E-Wings with R3 Astromech

ARC-170 Gunship piloted by Norra Wexley, with Leia as crewmember

Phoenix Squadron A-Wing with Composure

The R3 astromechs keep options open for the E-wings and make life harder for the opponent. Norra Wexley chips in heavy firepower and possibly blocking, while Leia allows all ships to make red maneuvers with actions every three rounds. The A-Wing is because I have 30 points left and it can work well as a blocker and/or arc dodger. The list adds to 200 points.

If you are jousting, I’d probably swap R3 for R4 so it opens up the E-Wing dial and it will be easier for you to clear stress. I’d probably run something like this;

Norra Wexley (ARC-170) - Intimidation, Zeb, Hull upgrade

Rogue Squadron Escort (x2) - R4 Astromech

Lieutenant Blount - Crack Shot

Total: 200

I flew the E wings with R3, FCS, and proton torpedoes and Norra in the ARC. It's actually a pretty good archetype. Zev intimidation on Nora is the way

6 hours ago, billyyank said:

I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on this list.

Two Rogue Squadron E-Wings with R3 Astromech

ARC-170 Gunship piloted by Norra Wexley, with Leia as crewmember

Phoenix Squadron A-Wing with Composure

The R3 astromechs keep options open for the E-wings and make life harder for the opponent. Norra Wexley chips in heavy firepower and possibly blocking, while Leia allows all ships to make red maneuvers with actions every three rounds. The A-Wing is because I have 30 points left and it can work well as a blocker and/or arc dodger. The list adds to 200 points.

Looks pretty good, but skip Composure. It’s a weird talent. There are relatively few ways for an action to ‘fail,’ and that’s the only time Composure does anything. Even then, it only gives you what you could have gotten through a basic Focus action... in which case, why not just Focus in the first place?

There are corner cases where Composure actually does something for you... but it tends to be tied to particular pilots. And frankly, I’ve had a couple cocktails and can’t for the life of me remember which pilots those are. Otherwise, Composure is a failsafe for poor flying, when you aren’t *quite* sure if your action is gonna work or not, and it’s usually better to just say, learn when your boost or barrel roll will fit, and not attempt it if you think it won’t. :)

So drop Composure, and spend that final point on something that may actually help you. The new Starbird Slash talent comes to mind. In this case, it allows your A-Wing to aggressively attempt to block, and if you overshoot the target, you get the benefit of straining it. Another option is the new Deadeye Shot, which allows you to roll your attack dice, and then (if you rolled say, one hit on a 3 agility ship with a facedown damage card) allows you to just spend the hit to expose the facedown card, turning it face-up... even before the opponent rolls defense dice. So a probable miss becomes an, “ok, I missed, but your facedown card flips up, and oh, look at that, Direct Hit! Take another card.” Or an, “ok, I missed, but your facedown card flips up, and oh, look at that! Structural Damage! Your Agility is permanently reduced by 1.”

In all, most of the 1 point talents aren’t great, but of them, Composure is likely the worst.

Edited by Cpt ObVus
10 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Looks pretty good, but skip Composure. It’s a weird talent. There are relatively few ways for an action to ‘fail,’ and that’s the only time Composure does anything. Even then, it only gives you what you could have gotten through a basic Focus action... in which case, why not just Focus in the first place?

There are corner cases where Composure actually does something for you... but it tends to be tied to particular pilots. And frankly, I’ve had a couple cocktails and can’t for the life of me remember which pilots those are. Otherwise, Composure is a failsafe for poor flying, when you aren’t *quite* sure if your action is gonna work or not, and it’s usually better to just say, learn when your boost or barrel roll will fit, and not attempt it if you think it won’t. :)

So drop Composure, and spend that final point on something that may actually help you. The new Starbird Slash talent comes to mind. In this case, it allows your A-Wing to aggressively attempt to block, and if you overshoot the target, you get the benefit of straining it. Another option is the new Deadeye Shot, which allows you to roll your attack dice, and then (if you rolled say, one hit on a 3 agility ship with a facedown damage card) allows you to just spend the hit to expose the facedown card, turning it face-up... even before the opponent rolls defense dice. So a probable miss becomes an, “ok, I missed, but your facedown card flips up, and oh, look at that, Direct Hit! Take another card.” Or an, “ok, I missed, but your facedown card flips up, and oh, look at that! Structural Damage! Your Agility is permanently reduced by 1.”

In all, most of the 1 point talents aren’t great, but of them, Composure is likely the worst.

I think you're right about Composure, I just didn't know what else to throw in for one point. I really like how Starbird Slash looks. It's especially useful for a PS 1 ship, acting like a buzz saw zipping through enemy ships. Deadeye Shot also looks good, but the bullseye is such a narrow opening that I think it would be better on a higher pilot skill.

4 hours ago, billyyank said:

I think you're right about Composure, I just didn't know what else to throw in for one point. I really like how Starbird Slash looks. It's especially useful for a PS 1 ship, acting like a buzz saw zipping through enemy ships. Deadeye Shot also looks good, but the bullseye is such a narrow opening that I think it would be better on a higher pilot skill.

That’s kinda where I’m at with the 1-point talents on low initiative A-Wings. Full agree.

REB EX 2E+Lando

(51) Rogue Squadron Escort [E-wing]
(2) R4 Astromech
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 55

(51) Rogue Squadron Escort [E-wing]
(2) R4 Astromech
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 55

(78) Lando Calrissian [Modified YT-1300 Light Freighter]
(5) Nien Nunb
(3) Intimidation
Points: 86

Total points: 196

1 hour ago, Ninotik said:

REB EX 2E+Lando

(51) Rogue Squadron Escort [E-wing]
(2) R4 Astromech
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 55

(51) Rogue Squadron Escort [E-wing]
(2) R4 Astromech
(2) Fire-Control System
Points: 55

(78) Lando Calrissian [Modified YT-1300 Light Freighter]
(5) Nien Nunb
(3) Intimidation
Points: 86

Total points: 196

Nice. Lean, efficient, simple. But I hate a couple of things about it. :)

Intimidation on Lando? No. If you run Lando into an opponent, not only does he lose his own action, he also loses the bonus action he wants to give to someone else (since he doesn’t “fully” execute a blue maneuver). So drop Intimidation. You NEVER want to bump with Lando. If it’s me, I’d add the Millennium Falcon Title, and maybe Jyn Erso, but Jyn isn’t necessary.

Second, especially with Fire Control System, give those E-Wings R3 Astromechs, not R4’s. I see the appeal of R4’s, but the R3 just flat does a lot more for them, especially if you’re investing in Fire Control Systems.

If you do all of that, it’s 200 on the nose. Dropping Jyn makes it 198, dropping Jyn and Falcon makes it 195. So you can keep a mini-bid if you like. I’m also pretty sure you can find a suitable cheap Talent or Modification for the Falcon (just ANYTHING but Intimidation). Or even a couple of 1-point Talents like Deadeye Shot for those Rogues.

Edited by Cpt ObVus

7 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Nice. Lean, efficient, simple. But I hate a couple of things about it. :)

Intimidation on Lando? No. If you run Lando into an opponent, not only does he lose his own action, he also loses the bonus action he wants to give to someone else (since he doesn’t “fully” execute a blue maneuver). So drop Intimidation. You NEVER want to bump with Lando. If it’s me, I’d add the Millennium Falcon Title, and maybe Jyn Erso, but Jyn isn’t necessary.

Second, especially with Fire Control System, give those E-Wings R3 Astromechs, not R4’s. I see the appeal of R4’s, but the R3 just flat does a lot more for them, especially if you’re investing in Fire Control Systems.

If you do all of that, it’s 200 on the nose. Dropping Jyn makes it 198, dropping Jyn and Falcon makes it 195. So you can keep a mini-bid if you like. I’m also pretty sure you can find a suitable cheap Talent or Modification for the Falcon (just ANYTHING but Intimidation). Or even a couple of 1-point Talents like Deadeye Shot for those Rogues.

I totally disagree. Although hitting Lando is not desirable, he is a 5, therefore all pilots of skill 1-4 and those of 5 in case of having the initiative, have the ability to block his movement. Intimidation makes the opponent have to decide between blocking and defending with one less or letting him do his movements.

I totally prefer R4 over R3, cause the maneuver dial turns into a real good one. :)

On 11/21/2020 at 1:08 PM, Ninotik said:

I totally disagree. Although hitting Lando is not desirable, he is a 5, therefore all pilots of skill 1-4 and those of 5 in case of having the initiative, have the ability to block his movement. Intimidation makes the opponent have to decide between blocking and defending with one less or letting him do his movements.

I totally prefer R4 over R3, cause the maneuver dial turns into a real good one. :)

I never thought about using intimidation as a deterrent to stop a block on Lando. Would adding Zeb Orrelios be a good idea?

On 11/21/2020 at 8:49 AM, Cpt ObVus said:

Intimidation on Lando? No. If you run Lando into an opponent, not only does he lose his own action, he also loses the bonus action he wants to give to someone else (since he doesn’t “fully” execute a blue maneuver). So drop Intimidation. You NEVER want to bump with Lando. If it’s me, I’d add the Millennium Falcon Title, and maybe Jyn Erso, but Jyn isn’t necessary.

Nah, you've got it totally backwards.

Intimidation on Lando is kinda brilliant and I'm annoyed I've not thought of it myself.

Lando's biggest problem - and it's often a list killing problem - is that's he's both vulnerable to and easy to block. Block Lando and you take away both his action and the extra action for that other ship that was going to do something good with it. And while Nien opens the dial up a bit, the predictability of Lando's blues (he basically never does a hard turn), the large base and high I make him very easy for anything I1-I4 and potentially even I5 to block.

Intimidation won't give you your actions back, but it gives the E-Wings a better chance to remove the blocker. It lets Lando still contribute in some way, and gives your opponent something to consider when going for that block. For 3 points, I can't think of a better talent on Lando unless you're going to attempt to tank some crits with Selfless (not optimal, IMO).

On 11/21/2020 at 8:49 AM, Cpt ObVus said:

Second, especially with Fire Control System, give those E-Wings R3 Astromechs, not R4’s. I see the appeal of R4’s, but the R3 just flat does a lot more for them, especially if you’re investing in Fire Control Systems.

Again, just because R3 is the generally accepted good choice for E-Wings, doesn't mean it's right for this list.

Usually, you take R3 so that you have two locks on the board so that you're opponent can't just run away with the one ship you locked - they don't know which of the two you're going for.

But this is less of an issue with Lando on the board. You have an option to retake a lock without losing out on a focus.

But more importantly, you're going to want to fly your E-Wings to support Lando. Ideally, you want them shooting at whatever is in front or right next to Lando. With only three ships on the board, you also want range 1 shots as much as possible to max your attack dice.

These E-Wings are going to run as brawlers. They need those hard 1s. R4 on an E-Wing is less about the blue hard 2 (though that is a boon), it's to stop the hard 1 being red.

If there's a weakness in this list, it's that ideally you want to run your E-Wings behind Lando so they can shoot at anything trying to block Lando, but at lower I they won't be able to.

I'd take the title on Lando in this list too. Normally I think Jyn is better, but E-Wings have evade natively. Lando can always use his ability on himself to get focus evade, and with the title defensive rerolls. Should only be triggered if he's being focused down, but the option is worth the points IMO.

I like to keep them lean as well. Since the Petranaki point change, I’ve been able to find success with the Knaves.

Han + Kanan + Trick Shot; 2x Knaves + R3 Astromech felt strong. I tried it recently on the Barons stream. I’ve generally found that I prefer the generic E-Wings over Braylen/Ten because of the dial and 3 agility.

4 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Nah, you've got it totally backwards.

Intimidation on Lando is kinda brilliant and I'm annoyed I've not thought of it myself.

Lando's biggest problem - and it's often a list killing problem - is that's he's both vulnerable to and easy to block. Block Lando and you take away both his action and the extra action for that other ship that was going to do something good with it. And while Nien opens the dial up a bit, the predictability of Lando's blues (he basically never does a hard turn), the large base and high I make him very easy for anything I1-I4 and potentially even I5 to block.

Intimidation won't give you your actions back, but it gives the E-Wings a better chance to remove the blocker. It lets Lando still contribute in some way, and gives your opponent something to consider when going for that block. For 3 points, I can't think of a better talent on Lando unless you're going to attempt to tank some crits with Selfless (not optimal, IMO).

Again, just because R3 is the generally accepted good choice for E-Wings, doesn't mean it's right for this list.

Usually, you take R3 so that you have two locks on the board so that you're opponent can't just run away with the one ship you locked - they don't know which of the two you're going for.

But this is less of an issue with Lando on the board. You have an option to retake a lock without losing out on a focus.

But more importantly, you're going to want to fly your E-Wings to support Lando. Ideally, you want them shooting at whatever is in front or right next to Lando. With only three ships on the board, you also want range 1 shots as much as possible to max your attack dice.

These E-Wings are going to run as brawlers. They need those hard 1s. R4 on an E-Wing is less about the blue hard 2 (though that is a boon), it's to stop the hard 1 being red.

If there's a weakness in this list, it's that ideally you want to run your E-Wings behind Lando so they can shoot at anything trying to block Lando, but at lower I they won't be able to.

I'd take the title on Lando in this list too. Normally I think Jyn is better, but E-Wings have evade natively. Lando can always use his ability on himself to get focus evade, and with the title defensive rerolls. Should only be triggered if he's being focused down, but the option is worth the points IMO.

Compelling points, I’ll admit.

On 11/28/2020 at 3:58 AM, LUZ_TAK said:

Would adding Zeb Orrelios be a good idea?

No.

Zeb's a bit of a weird card. I don't think he's good much of the time at all.

But if there's an argument for his use, it's on your blockers. Because Zeb allows both bumped ships to shoot each other, you're looking for edge cases where it's more in your favour to shoot than theirs. In a rare case of Rebel theme meeting gameplay synergy, one of the best places for Zeb is on the Ghost because you're guaranteed to beat the number of attack dice you're rolling vs anything else. The worst case is against Fenn, Talonbane, an Upsilon or a Ghost mirror where you only match their dice. You will at least never be outdiced (outside of very specific list based edge cases, like a Jan Ors buffed Ghost). The other situation where the advantage is (usually) yours is if you're getting mods and they're not. This means you getting your actions, them not. Which means you want to be the one blocking.

As a corollary, Zeb on Lando is bad because you're expecting Lando to be the one getting bumped. While Zeb will let you get a shot off (assuming your arc is pointed the right way), it'll be unmodded. The blocking ship's shot will likely be modded. Which means not only is Lando at a disadvantage vs all other opponent ships, he's now at a disadvantage compared with the blocker and you're the one giving that blocker a shot anyway. Intimidation is not enough to bridge this gap.

And as a practical matter, I would expect the blocking ship to be in front of Lando, and Lando's arcs to be pointed to the sides. That's generally how Lando is flown, and unless you correctly called the block the turn previously and have Agile Gunner, you almost certainly won't get chance to rotate the arcs. It is, of course, very difficult to block at the side of a ship. So Zeb becomes really bad on Lando. You've given your blocker a shot without even getting the benefit of a shot yourself.

Will there be lucky moments where Lando is able to use his I5, Intimidation and a lucky unmodded roll to one shot his blocker before the blocker even engages? Sure, but you absolutely can't count on that and I feel that Zeb will cost Lando far more times than he would help.

Thanks for the thorough reply. Will revise my Ghost lists. Have a cold one on me. 🍺

Edited by LUZ_TAK

You can pry my R3 E-Wings from my cold, dead hands.

But I get it with R4 folks.

There's a lot of potential mobility there, and it does open up the dial. I'm going to prefer the massive targeting flexibility (which also leads to practical mobility--more moves are good with two potential targets), but if someone else is a die-hard R4 player, hey, that's just how it goes.

2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

The worst case is against Fenn, Talonbane

I don't think that's actually true. Range 0 against Fenn in particular is a great place to be, since his ability and Concordia are Range 1 only.

2 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

In a rare case of Rebel theme meeting gameplay synergy, one of the best places for Zeb is on the Ghost because you're guaranteed to beat the number of attack dice you're rolling vs anything else.

My two cents, and it's mostly based on 1e, I didn't really like having Zeb on the Ghost. I always felt like I was getting the worse end of the deal, since I could usually shoot some other target with my VCX, so I'd rather an opponent who blocked me wasn't able to shoot me, too. But this was in an era of 360 degree automatic turrets, and it's also probably local. The lists I wound up playing against might not be the same as someone else.

I'm not saying Zeb on a Ghost is bad, just that... it didn't really work for me or feel great to me. I suspect it's a lot like R4 vs R3. Both have merits, and the players involved matter more than anything else.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

You can pry my R3 E-Wings from my cold, dead hands.

But I get it with R4 folks.

There's a lot of potential mobility there, and it does open up the dial. I'm going to prefer the massive targeting flexibility (which also leads to practical mobility--more moves are good with two potential targets), but if someone else is a die-hard R4 player, hey, that's just how it goes.

Yeah, it's super dependent on how you play it.

I just happen to find it way easier to work around the lock and target selection problems with R4 than working around the red hard 1 with R3. Mostly, that's because I see the locks as a bonus anyway. If you end up pointed at a ship you didn't lock and are now at range 1 of.... well, you're still a 3/3/3/3 ship with a focus token. But seeing that the 1 hard plus boost or roll is probably the best way to gain position or potentially dodge an arc or block... That's tough when there's literally nothing you can do about it. To put that another way, I can't lock two ships off the bat with R4. But I can still fire at locked ships and get double mods and use FCS; and even without the 'free' lock at all, I'm still an X-Wing with 3 agility, the evade action and boost without sacrificing an attack die. I can't 1 hard into a boost with R3. Ever. Can't even focus.

But it's also super list dependent. In a pure E-Wing list, I'd go with R3s all round every time. Because then you're going to range control and boom and zoom and the 1 hards are less relevant.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I don't think that's actually true. Range 0 against Fenn in particular is a great place to be, since his ability and Concordia are Range 1 only.

You're absolutely right, I always forget Fenn is range 1 only.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

My two cents, and it's mostly based on 1e, I didn't really like having Zeb on the Ghost. I always felt like I was getting the worse end of the deal, since I could usually shoot some other target with my VCX, so I'd rather an opponent who blocked me wasn't able to shoot me, too. But this was in an era of 360 degree automatic turrets, and it's also probably local. The lists I wound up playing against might not be the same as someone else.

I'm not saying Zeb on a Ghost is bad, just that... it didn't really work for me or feel great to me. I suspect it's a lot like R4 vs R3. Both have merits, and the players involved matter more than anything else.

Okay, let me be clear about the way in which this goes.

I think the best use case for Zeb is on the Ghost.

I don't think the best Ghost build uses Zeb.

Zeb on the Ghost is about as good as Zeb gets, but I'm not saying it's a good list building option if you're using the Ghost.

Like I said, Zeb is a weird card and I don't think he's good on much at all. There's a reason he's barely ever taken at only 1 point.

46 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

But it's also super list dependent. In a pure E-Wing list, I'd go with R3s all round every time. Because then you're going to range control and boom and zoom and the 1 hards are less relevant.

Torpedoes, IMHO, absolutely require R3. Having two choices for the first target gives you a lot more options on the approach (an opponent can't "just run" as easily), and you have the immensely powerful potential for a second-strike of double-modded torps on the next round. When it works, it's glorious, and with a list like Torpedo E-Wings, you have to play to your outs.

47 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Okay, let me be clear about the way in which this goes.

I think the best use case for Zeb is on the Ghost.

Yeah.

I just wanted to toss out another take which that's just, well, my opinion, man.

4 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

I think the best use case for Zeb is on the Ghost.

I don't think the best Ghost build uses Zeb.

Zeb on the Ghost is about as good as Zeb gets, but I'm not saying it's a good list building option if you're using the Ghost.

Like I said, Zeb is a weird card and I don't think he's good on much at all. There's a reason he's barely ever taken at only 1 point.

How about Zeb on Sabine's attack shuttle with Intimidation? Its 3 red, nice predial movement to help block I4 and above and ram into the rest

Edited by LUZ_TAK