Hi! I have a few questions about the ability queue and the new tie/rb to make sure I’m getting the effects right.

Question 1: Does the phrase, “if you do,” in card ability texts quality as an if-statement as in the RRG; and therefore mean that everything before “if you do” is a requirement? (I would think so, but looking for confirmation.)

RRG pg 32

Q: What is meant by a requirement for an ability?
A: A requirement for an ability is a conditional if-statement, such as "if you are tractored" or "if the defender is in your bullseye arc." A ship being in- arc at range for an attack made as part of a triggered ability, such as Snap Shot or Foresight, is also a requirement for that ability.

If an ability's requirements are not met at the time the ability would be added to the queue, it cannot be added to the queue.

—————

If so, then (question 2) Rampage would be able to Zion Limiter Override-barrel roll and then strain a target ONLY IF he first fully executed his maneuver and there was already a ship in turret arc at range 0-1. Then, after the roll, there’s the same or a different target in turret arc at 0-1. Do I have this right?

Rampage :

After you execute a speed 3-4 maneuver, you may choose a ship in your [turret arc] at range 0-1. If you do, that ship gains 1 strain token, or 2 strain tokens if you are damaged.

Ion Limiter Override :

After you fully execute a red maneuver, you may perform a [barrel roll] action, even while stressed. If you do, roll an attack die; on a [hit] result gain 1 strain token, and on a [critical] result gain 1 ion token.

Question 3: what happens if the barrel roll fails? Seems like the die roll should still happen?

Not quite.

"If you do" are not requirements to add the ability to the queue. Just requirements to do what comes after.

Typically its worded like.

"When <this> happens, IF <this> is the case..."

Rampage isnt worded like that. The only condition he has to put his ability into the queue is executing the 3-4 speed maneuver. The turret arc part of his ability is not for an attack, thus isnt checked until you attempt to resolve the ability.

RR pg 33

Quote

Q: How are abilities that "may c hoose a ship " (e.g. K-2SO [crew] or Darth Vader [ crew ]) resolved when they are reached in the ability queue?

A: When an ability that "may choose a ship" is reached in the ability queue, before paying costs, the ship's player may measure range to any number of ships. Then, that player may choose a ship from among the valid options as defined by the ability, or choose no ship. If they choose no ship, the costs for the ability are not paid, and the ability is removed from the queue without resolving.

In this example, the "to any number of ships" has the added limiter from Rampage of "at range 0-1 in turret arc". But otherwise, it works the same.

great questions!

the answer is no. and kind of yes. if you use rampage as an example, his ability does not have an ability's requirement, but it will always trigger after you fully execute a 3-4 speed maneuver. it then says you may choose, meaning you have the option to choose, but that you can also elect not to choose. the rest of his ability is the effect that happens if you choose. meaning "that ship gains 1 strain token, or 2 strain tokens if you are damaged." is not an ability with the requirement that you have to choose, but just an effect that's part of his ability - and that part of his ability will only happen if you choose a ship in his turret arc at range 0-1.

it's the same with ion limiter overdrive. the ability has no requirement, but it will always trigger after you fully execute a red maneuver. you the get another "may"-statement, meaning you can choose to perform a barrel roll action - or elect not to. whether you succeed with your barrel roll action has no consequence for the rest of the ability, since failing is just a way to resolve the action in a default way. so you always have to roll for strain or ion if you elect to barrel roll, no matter if you fail to roll.

the great part is that you can indeed fully execute a speed 3-4 red maneuver and enter both abilities into the queue in what ever order you prefer. this means you can barrel roll first and then hand out strain to a ship in your arc - or you can hand out strain to a ship in your arc first and then barrel roll.

just please remember that ion limiter overdrive only triggers if you fully execute a red maneuver - and rampage only triggers if you execute a speed 3-4 maneuver.

also, i use "trigger" in this post to indicate that an ability enters the ability queue.

here are some references that was added to the FAQ in the last rules update:

Thank you for the responses, @Lyianx and @meffo !

It is duly noted that Rampage just “executes” the maneuver while ILO is “fully executes”. (I was pretty happy to know that Rampage works like that.)

So, if I understand what you are both saying...

Timing window =

rampage: execute 3-4 maneuver

ILO: fully execute red maneuver

Requirement, conditional on an if-statement =

Rampage: none

ILO: none

(And this is because, as clarified for Vader/k2s0, the ability to choose an option doesn’t mean it’s a requirement that has to be met at the time it enters the ability queue.)

Effect =

Rampage: you may choose a ship in your turret arc 0-1 give it the right amount of strain

ILO: you may choose to barrel roll, even while stressed. Then roll a die for strain or ion

So the “may” part of these (and Vader/k2so) is, in execution, sort of an escape clause for the requirement-look-alike phrase that these cards do have? That simplifies reading them for me a lot, if so!

correct. we could take it even further by breaking down rampage's ability into more abilities ("you may choose [...]" and "if you do, that ship gains [...]) and and state that "if you do" is a conditinal requirement for what ever comes after that, but that's kind of breaking the game terms a bit. 😅

Doesn't Rampage need to be ABLE to choose a unit at the time his ability enters the queue? I.e., if Rampage moves and there ISN'T a valid target for him, he doesn't get to ILO barrel roll, THEN check again... or am I overthinking things?

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Doesn't Rampage need to be ABLE to choose a unit at the time his ability enters the queue? I.e., if Rampage moves and there ISN'T a valid target for him, he doesn't get to ILO barrel roll, THEN check again... or am I overthinking things?

what makes you think that? his ability is added to the queue at the indicated timing, "after you execute a speed 3-4 maneuver" whether you want to or not. it's not optional. you mean "you may choose a ship in your [turret arc] at range 0-1." is a requirement? that's interesting. i mean, the ability isn't resolved when it enters the queue. you think it needs to be able to resolve at the time it enters the queue? why?

I think “picking a target” is an exception to the rule.

31 minutes ago, meffo said:

what makes you think that? his ability is added to the queue at the indicated timing, "after you execute a speed 3-4 maneuver" whether you want to or not. it's not optional. you mean "you may choose a ship in your [turret arc] at range 0-1." is a requirement? that's interesting. i mean, the ability isn't resolved when it enters the queue. you think it needs to be able to resolve at the time it enters the queue? why?

If you're not able to resolve an effect at the time it would ENTER the queue, you can't queue the effect. That means that, if Rampage moves and does NOT have SOME ship in his turret arc at range 0-1, he couldn't trigger. If there was SOME legal target there, he could put the ability into the queue (along with I.L.O. or other similiar abilities), and resolve them in the order of choice. The actual SELECTION of the ship isn't done until the ability resolves, but I thought that being ABLE to select something is considered a backdoor requirement of the ability.

But there’s no way to know unless you measure. Just like Darth Vader

29 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

If you're not able to resolve an effect at the time it would ENTER the queue, you can't queue the effect. That means that, if Rampage moves and does NOT have SOME ship in his turret arc at range 0-1, he couldn't trigger. If there was SOME legal target there, he could put the ability into the queue (along with I.L.O. or other similiar abilities), and resolve them in the order of choice. The actual SELECTION of the ship isn't done until the ability resolves, but I thought that being ABLE to select something is considered a backdoor requirement of the ability.

that's an interesting statement and line of reasoning. what makes you think "If you're not able to resolve an effect at the time it would ENTER the queue, you can't queue the effect."? you have any references? as far as i know, there is no rules text to support it.

you're saying the old teroch / ketsu onyo trick does not work as well then?

1 hour ago, meffo said:

that's an interesting statement and line of reasoning. what makes you think "If you're not able to resolve an effect at the time it would ENTER the queue, you can't queue the effect."? you have any references? as far as i know, there is no rules text to support it.

All in this quote is from the rules reference guide. The specific answer to the question is in bold below.

8 hours ago, Synel said:

RRG pg 32

Q: What is meant by a requirement for an ability?
A: A requirement for an ability is a conditional if-statement, such as "if you are tractored" or "if the defender is in your bullseye arc." A ship being in- arc at range for an attack made as part of a triggered ability, such as Snap Shot or Foresight, is also a requirement for that ability.

If an ability's requirements are not met at the time the ability would be added to the queue, it cannot be added to the queue.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

you're saying the old teroch / ketsu onyo trick does not work as well then?

Not familiar with this, but I assume you’re talking about ketsu’s ability tractoring someone into old teroch’s arc at range 1?

RRG pg33:

Q: How are abilities that "may choose a ship" (e.g. K-2SO [crew] or Darth Vader [crew]) resolved when they are reached in the ability queue?
A: When an ability that "may choose a ship" is reached in the ability queue, before paying costs, the ship's player may measure range to any number of ships. Then, that player may choose a ship from among the valid options as defined by the ability, or choose no ship. If they choose no ship, the costs for the ability are not paid, and the ability is removed from the queue without resolving.

So, this doesn’t directly clarify under what circumstances these abilities we are discussing can enter the queue (we know that, in general, any ability that can meet its requirements can enter the queue). But, if these abilities have the option to choose “no ship” (as indicated by “may choose a ship” part above), then... technically... they DO satisfy their requirements (including the ketsu and teroch trick)! Because “no selection” is a possibility at the timing window to enter the queue, they can’t NOT enter the queue. Haha! Well that’s a convoluted bit of logic. But it makes the most sense of this to me so far.

The only things that qualify as ability requirements, as specified by the rules reference, are explicit requirements (When this happens, if this is true , you may...), attack requirements if the ability grants a bonus attack, and cost requirements if the ability requires you to spend a cost.

Selecting a target is not an ability requirement, and it is explicitly stated in the rules reference that you do not select a target until resolving the ability so there is no requirement to pre-select a target to queue the ability.

i agree with you both, @Synel and @joeshmoe554 , that's why i'm asking @emeraldbeacon what he means by " If you're not able to resolve an effect at the time it would ENTER the queue, you can't queue the effect.". i don't view the statement as true - and thus i'd like to know how he concluded it.

or at least in my mind, " If you're not able to resolve an effect at the time it would ENTER the queue, you can't queue the effect." has a very different meaning than "If an ability's requirements are not met at the time the ability would be added to the queue, it cannot be added to the queue.", since being able to resolve an ability is not the same thing as an ability's requirement.

10 minutes ago, meffo said:

or at least in my mind, " If you're not able to resolve an effect at the time it would ENTER the queue, you can't queue the effect." has a very different meaning than "If an ability's requirements are not met at the time the ability would be added to the queue, it cannot be added to the queue.", since being able to resolve an ability is not the same thing as an ability's requirement.

My understanding - which I acknowledge may be in error or out of date - was following a previous ruling for Old Teroch. That ruling stated that if, at the time you would place his ability into the queue, if there were no legal ships in range, his ability would not be able to be queued (even if another ability, like Ketsu Onyo's tractor ability, could pull another ship into range). As I read further, though, I don't see any reference to that previous ruling in the FAQ or the Official Rulings thread at the top of this page, so I will concede the point. It was merely a concern I had about how different rules interacted.

3 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

My understanding - which I acknowledge may be in error or out of date - was following a previous ruling for Old Teroch. That ruling stated that if, at the time you would place his ability into the queue, if there were no legal ships in range, his ability would not be able to be queued (even if another ability, like Ketsu Onyo's tractor ability, could pull another ship into range). As I read further, though, I don't see any reference to that previous ruling in the FAQ or the Official Rulings thread at the top of this page, so I will concede the point. It was merely a concern I had about how different rules interacted.

there was never such a ruling as far as i know. thank you for your input, though.

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

As I read further, though, I don't see any reference to that previous ruling in the FAQ or the Official Rulings thread at the top of this page, so I will concede the point. It was merely a concern I had about how different rules interacted.

There was a big debate about it about a year ago. Perhaps thats what you are remembering?

9 hours ago, Lyianx said:

There was a big debate about it about a year ago. Perhaps thats what you are remembering?

I remember that debate as well. I think the there was some unwritten rulings by Marshalls (and leaning consensus toward) needing to be able to fully resolve an ability, or more specifically that some other part of the ability should have been considered a Requirement. That debate was eventually settled by the FAQ entry that has been quoted above with explicit definitions of what a Requirement is in game terms.

2 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

I remember that debate as well. I think the there was some unwritten rulings by Marshalls (and leaning consensus toward) needing to be able to fully resolve an ability, or more specifically that some other part of the ability should have been considered a Requirement. That debate was eventually settled by the FAQ entry that has been quoted above with explicit definitions of what a Requirement is in game terms.

Quite possibly. Which is why i maintain that 'just because a marshall/TO ruled it one way at an event, doesn't make it "the way"'.

On 11/19/2020 at 1:07 AM, meffo said:

or at least in my mind, " If you're not able to resolve an effect at the time it would ENTER the queue, you can't queue the effect." has a very different meaning than "If an ability's requirements are not met at the time the ability would be added to the queue, it cannot be added to the queue.", since being able to resolve an ability is not the same thing as an ability's requirement.

Ah! Thank you for clarifying. I was not paying attention to the distinction you were making between meeting requirements and the effect resolving as a whole.

After searching for “if you” in squad builders to compare wording of several cards, something clicked to me that Lyianx had pointed out early on. Sorry that I didn’t catch it fully back then.

On 11/18/2020 at 10:57 AM, Lyianx said:

"When <this> happens, IF <this> is the case..."

The pattern my mind finally saw clearly was that the conditional if statement that is a requirement seems to follow this structure pretty regularly:

[timing window] {comma} [requirement] {comma}
[cost]/[effect] {period}

Timing windows are easy to identify. But the requirements became more clearly visible as “check for specific board state”. Since Vader, Rampage, etc. (can you tell I’m an imperial player, lol) have stuff that the player has to actually DO before the “if you do” clause, it’s clearer that it’s definitely not a conditional if statement checking for board state. Hope this helps someone else. Certainly helped me.

With the release of the Eta-2 Actis, we have a couple more “if you do” abilities. In fact, it looks like the abilities have BOTH the conditional if-statement requirement and the “if you do” clause! This is where the fun begins! Perhaps this has already been hashed out somewhere else and I’m late to the party, apologies, but because of my original title, I think it’s a good discussion for this thread. Points of interest are in bold .

Anakin: After you or a friendly OBI-WAN KENOBI ship at range 0-3 executes a maneuver, if there are more enemy ships than other friendly ships at range 0-1 of that ship , you may spend 1 [force charge]. If you do , that ship removes one red token of your choice.

Obi-Wan: After you or a friendly ANAKIN SKYWALKER ship at range 0-3 executes a maneuver, if there are more enemy ships than other friendly ships at range 0-1 of that ship , you may spend 1 [force charge]. If you do , that ship gains 1 focus token.

Timing window for both: After a specified ship executes a maneuver

Conditional if-statement/requirement (a check for board-state): if there are more enemy ships that other friendly ships 0-1 of the one that just moved

Cost: spend 1 force

“If you do” all of the before, you get the effect of the ability that occurs.

Now, something to note: neither of these ships have the may choose a ship clause that is referenced on the FAQ for the k2s0/Vader clarification. However, the enemy vs other friendly ship count part still requires measuring range as part of the requirement.

So, allow me an attempt to parse what this means for execution if Anakin has Daredevil and afterburners equipped. For simplicity, let’s say only one Jedi is involved.

After Anakin executes a speed 3-5 maneuver, he is 0-3 of himself. If-statement requirement must be met for the ability to enter the queue. Check range to other ships 0-1 of anakin.

(requirement is met both times) If there are more enemies than other friendlies, proceed: put afterburners and Jedi ability into the queue in that order. Resolve afterburners with daredevil. Then resolve Jedi ability — MUST CHECK THAT THE RANGE 0-1 REQUIREMENT IS STILL MET (similar to Snap Shot and Fine-Tuned Controls). If it is MET (i.e. you’re still closer to more enemies than other friendlies) , spend the force and remove that stress token you just gained.

(requirement is met only to enter queue) If there are more enemies than other friendlies, proceed: put afterburners and Jedi ability into the queue in that order. Resolve afterburners with daredevil. Then resolve Jedi ability — MUST CHECK THAT THE RANGE 0-1 REQUIREMENT IS STILL MET (similar to Snap Shot and Fine-Tuned Controls). If it is NOT MET (i.e. you moved out of 0-1 of enemies and closer to friendlies) , you cannot spend the force and the stress from daredevil is not removed.

(requirement is not met to enter queue) If there are equal to or more other friendlies than enemies, only afterburners is put into the queue. Since the Jedi ability is not in the queue, it doesn’t matter if afterburners + daredevil gets you closer to more enemies than friendlies, the Jedi ability is not in the queue for that timing window and will not resolve.

Any agreeing/disagreeing thoughts on this? (Thats a lot of text. 😬 )

Oh! I forgot one more scenario.

(requirement is met but choosing not to spend force) Anakin moves, checks requirement. There are more enemies than other friendlies at 0-2. Now, either 1) Ability enters queue after daredevil afterburners. Both resolve, requirement is still met and you choose to not spend force. Or 2) You choose to not use afterburners. Ability enters queue alone and resolves. Again, choosing to not spend the force.

it seems to me you are correct.