6 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Interestingly, when the Owl was introduced I felt that their flavour would pitch perfect for an alternate Rokugan where Ryoshun survived.

Similarly, the Spider, excising the tainted aspects would fit an hardcore take on the Hantei, say one where Naseru does become the legacy of Steel Chrysanthemum but doesn't get the Throne instead becoming the head of a new Great Clan to honor the lineage.

Well, I like that they chose an animal avatar for the Hantei families. And the Hantei school based on elemental dragons was fine. The Yoshun was a good idea.

But everything else just utterly falls apart because it was pretty obvious that the designers reached for a very bad concept and then tried to incorporate that into absolutely everything, literally throwing out what few traits could be attributed to the Imperial Families that don't directly come from being the ones in charge, but obviously forgetting that they would still have to be functioning as an actual clan within an actual empire where, even if there was slightly higher presence of Naga and Kitsune and Tengu, 90% of the time they would still be interacting with humans. So defining them as "dealing with non-humans" to the point that literally none of their techniques have any effect on humans at all?

Point to me any Crab Clan school whose techniques solely affect Shadowlands creatures. Do you see the Hiruma Berserker school saying their extra strength only affects Shadowlands creatures? Or the Yasuki Courtier only getting bonus on trade with Shadowlands creatures? Yet the Crab Clan is very clearly defined by dealing with Shadowlands creatures.

Imagine if the Shiba and Asako school techniques were defined solely by working on Mahotsukai. Does the fact that they don't mean Mahotsukai are not primarily a Phoenix problem?

Or if the Ide had bonus on trade exclusively on gaijin and if you were not a gaijin, they only have their base skills to fall back on? Or if the Utaku's bonus damage only worked on gaijin?

It was just such monumental bad design that words can hardly express just how badly it would fall apart under even the slightest amount of playtesting.

And it seems like there is plenty of groundwork for theming the "Hantei Children as a Great Clan", sure-- we don't know what a proper "Hantei" family would look like, but if they are the Clan's main samurai family, then a lot of what exists for the Seppun as guardians/magistrates can be shifted onto the Hantei. That leaves the Seppun open to be an astrologer/seer Shugenja family like their founder. And then you have the Otomo as a courtier family whose founder was known as being a bit off-putting, but clever enough and good enough to overcome that-- so maybe they focus on diplomacy and research. Since every other Clan is presumed to get all of their families regardless of all of history being different, fill them out with Miya, Tsi, Kasuga and Yotsu, giving them scouts/couriers, smiths, scouts and light armored samurai. Although the Tsi and Yotsu probably just fit better under the whole "vassal families" umbrella.

For overall theme, the main focus of Hantei that seems different from the others is the focus on Shinseism. An "Owl Clan" probably makes more sense for a heavily Shinseism-devoted Clan than one that is shallowly defined as "talks to non-humans." And maybe the whole "they control the smallest, but most densely populated lands" would still be a thing. So follow those out as concepts. If the whole "dealing with non-humans" ends up falling under their umbrella, so be it-- but none of their schools should be focused on that to the entire exclusion of being able to affect anyone else. But with any of the Great Clans, whenever you try to define them as "This is the Clan that does ____________", it is always so reductive that one can point out one or two of the clan's families that aren't encapsulated by that idea at all. At best there is some thematic consistency in how they dress, but within any given Clan you have a variety of families with a variety of functions.

So the idea of designing any Great Clan as "deals with nonhumans" to the point that every technique, every item, every concept has to feed into that to the exclusion of making a well-rounded clan that could stand on its own was just bad.

As for making a clan for Ryoshun....

I would probably start by putting the Badger, Falcon, Fox, Bat and Boar together as a single faction as the Badger is already confirmed as serving him and the others are all "deals with ghosts/spirits" clans. And yet, also, none of them are so solely defined by the "deals with ghosts" concept to the fact that they are utterly disarmed when dealing with humans. Of course, by the time Imperial Histories 2 came about, the Falcon had long since been claimed by the Crab and the Fox by the Mantis. (And now that I finally understand the Bat, I got to wonder why they aren't a Mantis Clan family-- I mean, I know why-- 'Batman' meme is why someone chose them to be a Minor Clan, but in-world...)