Sad to hear about the folks at FFG who have lost their jobs. Hope they were offered to transfer over to the new studio and if not, I hope they land on their feet soon. Bad time during a pandemic.

Your dedication and work to your games and community is very much appreciated. Thank you!

It may take a bit to find new work but hang in there, all of you.

14 hours ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

Reread what I wrote. Not all land redistribution policies were part of collectivization. The policies that fairly distributed land are distinct from the policy of forced collectivization.

There was no land redistribution except for forced collectivization. By 1950, almost 97% of Soviet farms were collective farms . In China, 100% of farms were collective. Your assertion that there was some other type of land redistribution is nothing more than an attempt to dodge that original post endorsed policies that killed tens of millions. Perhaps your lack of historical knowledge explains your politics.

20 minutes ago, postje said:

There was no land redistribution except for forced collectivization. By 1950, almost 97% of Soviet farms were collective farms . In China, 100% of farms were collective. Your assertion that there was some other type of land redistribution is nothing more than an attempt to dodge that original post endorsed policies that killed tens of millions. Perhaps your lack of historical knowledge explains your politics.

It is really quite amazing how you say such ignorant things with such confidence.

1) Chinese land reform started in the 40s and took off in 1950
2) Chinese collectivization efforts for farms started in 1953

Taken from the first google result, when searching "Chinese Land Reform" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Land_Reform

The Chinese Communists should have followed Korea's example, and not have killed the landlords, seizing their land was enough. But the principle of land reform was a good one, and did not hinge on Mao being a radical to landlords. As evidenced by land redistribution in North Korea, South Korea, and Taiwan.

36 minutes ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Cuba/United-States/Health yeah, sure! You'll find the US and Cuba are comparable on a lot of things, with Cuba better at vaccinating, preventing infant mortality, and increasing literacy. Cuba does slightly worse on maternal deaths, although women in general have the same life expectancy as in the US. That the statistics are similar when Cuba is a small island nation under economic warfare the last 60 years, with no support for 40 of those, and the US is the wealthiest nation in the world, is revealing

Lifetime expectancy is great until you realize that things like obesity and diabetes factor in. If you notice, the US is higher than Cuba in those categories. You realize that a lot of that number has to do with personal choices. How about car accidents? 7.5 per 100,000 in Cuba vs 12.4 in the US. That has nothing to do with healthcare. So, lifetime expectancy is not an indicator of a good healthcare system.

The infant mortality rate has also been looked into, and that number is believed to be manipulated ( https://muse.jhu.edu/article/588705 ). What's interesting is that @BiggsIRL provided the link to that when he wanted to show lifetime expectancy. The predicted number is much higher, because Cuba is moving neonatal deaths into late fetal deaths to suppress the number.

Vaccines? Harder to do when a portion of your population is anti-vaccine. Again, when you are accounting for personal choice in your ranking... you aren't ranking the healthcare system.

So, how about where people want to go when they need healthcare? When the US leads in medical tourism revenue by a large margin ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/1013813/leading-medical-tourism-countries-value/) , that should tell you where people want to go when they want to put money on their life. This far exceeds other countries. Unfortunately, this is a 2018 number. I tried looking for a 2019 number, but there are too many websites trying to create an index instead of looking at what people actually did with their money.

How about the availability of new treatments and drugs? We invest a heavy amount in medical R&D ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending ). We're among the leaders in the world. What did Cuba contribute? I tried looking, but couldn't find the information. However, the US is at the top of the world if you use total or per capita numbers, so I have my doubts that Cuba makes a dent.

What about medical equipment available per capita? We're at the top for MRIs ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/282401/density-of-magnetic-resonance-imaging-units-by-country/ ) or CTs ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/266539/distribution-of-equipment-for-computer-tomography/ ). This matters, because we have lots of equipment available to us when we need it.

24 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:

Lifetime expectancy is great until you realize that things like obesity and diabetes factor in. If you notice, the US is higher than Cuba in those categories. You realize that a lot of that number has to do with personal choices. How about car accidents? 7.5 per 100,000 in Cuba vs 12.4 in the US. That has nothing to do with healthcare. So, lifetime expectancy is not an indicator of a good healthcare system.

The infant mortality rate has also been looked into, and that number is believed to be manipulated ( https://muse.jhu.edu/article/588705 ). What's interesting is that @BiggsIRL provided the link to that when he wanted to show lifetime expectancy. The predicted number is much higher, because Cuba is moving neonatal deaths into late fetal deaths to suppress the number.

Vaccines? Harder to do when a portion of your population is anti-vaccine. Again, when you are accounting for personal choice in your ranking... you aren't ranking the healthcare system.

So, how about where people want to go when they need healthcare? When the US leads in medical tourism revenue by a large margin ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/1013813/leading-medical-tourism-countries-value/) , that should tell you where people want to go when they want to put money on their life. This far exceeds other countries. Unfortunately, this is a 2018 number. I tried looking for a 2019 number, but there are too many websites trying to create an index instead of looking at what people actually did with their money.

How about the availability of new treatments and drugs? We invest a heavy amount in medical R&D ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_research_and_development_spending ). We're among the leaders in the world. What did Cuba contribute? I tried looking, but couldn't find the information. However, the US is at the top of the world if you use total or per capita numbers, so I have my doubts that Cuba makes a dent.

What about medical equipment available per capita? We're at the top for MRIs ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/282401/density-of-magnetic-resonance-imaging-units-by-country/ ) or CTs ( https://www.statista.com/statistics/266539/distribution-of-equipment-for-computer-tomography/ ). This matters, because we have lots of equipment available to us when we need it.

If you have access to the full source, send it to me and I'll read it. An abstract with information behind a paywall is unconvincing.

Health is holistic. Obesity and diabetes are a factor of public health. If Obesity and diabetes are just "personal choices" than explain why they're so much higher in the US?

Anti-vaxxing is also a matter of public health. You don't have that problem in most other countries, what's wrong with the US that encourages anti-vaxxing?

Wow, the US is top when it comes to medical tourism? Hrmm, I wonder who can afford medical tourism?

Yeah, we have a lot more medical infrastructure, and yet our health outcomes are pretty similar. That's probably an indication that there is something wrong with US healthcare.



I'll ask again, have you done your reading? When you do, let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Also, I've noticed you've dropped your rhetoric about single mothers. I assume you've changed your mind?

20 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:

How about car accidents? 7.5 per 100,000 in Cuba vs 12.4 in the US. That has nothing to do with healthcare.

What do you think ambulances at the scene of car crashes are doing? Where do you think they take people from crashes?

19 minutes ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

If you have access to the full source, send it to me and I'll read it. An abstract with information behind a paywall is unconvincing.

Health is holistic. Obesity and diabetes are a factor of public health. If Obesity and diabetes are just "personal choices" than explain why they're so much higher in the US?

Anti-vaxxing is also a matter of public health. You don't have that problem in most other countries, what's wrong with the US that encourages anti-vaxxing?

Wow, the US is top when it comes to medical tourism? Hrmm, I wonder who can afford medical tourism?

Yeah, we have a lot more medical infrastructure, and yet our health outcomes are pretty similar. That's probably an indication that there is something wrong with US healthcare.



I'll ask again, have you done your reading? When you do, let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Also, I've noticed you've dropped your rhetoric about single mothers. I assume you've changed your mind?

Wow. Just wow. Bury your head in the sand more. There is no reason to discuss something with you at this point.

13 minutes ago, EBerling said:

What do you think ambulances at the scene of car crashes are doing? Where do you think they take people from crashes?

You assume that when ambulances get to the scene of the crash that there is something that can be done. You are also ignoring that more incidents of a crash will lead to more incidents of early death.

Medical Tourism is great and all, except that is the wealthy going to get the best treatment possible. It is HARDLY indicative of the total healthcare system, but rather the top level of care for those who can afford it.

It also is unsurprising that a country with the highest medical costs per capita would have a high price associated with medical tourism.

What this shows is that there is good healthcare and good outcomes available for people, if they are well off enough to afford it. And that by comparison there are those disadvantaged who cannot take advantage of that good healthcare. Needless to say, that is a dumb statistic to look at unless you're wealthy and interested in medical tourism.

Medical R&D - great. But it doesn't translate to actual, measurable results for the population. What does it matter that we are one of the best countries in researching new treatments and analytical tools, if the results are unaffordable for the population?

Results are what is important, and our results are bad compared to other industrialized countries, and comparable to Cuba.

We have MRIs and CTs! Great! Except we use them too frequently, and are trying to get doctors to proscribe imaging studies less:

Quote

“Although most physicians are aware that imaging tests are frequently overused, there are not enough evidenced-based guidelines that rely on a careful consideration of the evidence, including information on benefits and harms that can inform their testing decisions,” Smith-Bindman said. “In the absence of balanced evidence, the default decision is to image.”

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/medical-scanning-rates-continue-rise-despite-health-risks

None of these sources sited say that the US is better at healthcare results than any other industrialized nation. The facts are that the US lags behind other industrialized nations in cost of medical care per capita, and the commonly agreed measures of public health. Arguments that the US is actually doing great either looks at healthcare accessible primarily by the wealthy (Medical Tourism / Advanced Care) or completely misses the point.

Are we worse than Cuba? No, not really. But we're not better than Cuba either, and that if nothing else should be a giant indictment on our national medical system as a whole.

We COULD be better. But we're not.

I'm tired of effort posting against unsourced claims, .coms, Wikipedia, and paywall sources, so I'm just gonna say whatever I want from here on out and this will be my source:

America is the best! People dying from easily preventable and poverty related diseases is a moral failing on them and not at all an indictment of how we are unable to care for our fellow Americans! We certainly couldn't CHANGE any of that. People that make more money than any human being could reasonably use might be sad that their high score didn't go up enough.

Uk has very high medical tourism including a lot of yanks. The UK gets very little revenue from medical tourism.

Thankfully (under normal circumstances) our medical system is barely impacted by the high amount of medical tourism.

2 hours ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

It is really quite amazing how you say such ignorant things with such confidence.

1) Chinese land reform started in the 40s and took off in 1950
2) Chinese collectivization efforts for farms started in 1953

First of all, the Chinese Communist did not win the revolution until 1949. The had some interim reform in the areas they controlled prior to victory that was less radical than when they won the revolution, because they did not want to alienate the more successful peasants. Second, when they actually won the implemented collectivization and then turned to a more draconian version of it the "Great Leap Forward." Perhaps you should have kept reading a little further in the Wikipedia entry, which notes:

Land seized from Landlords was brought under collective ownership , resulting in the creation of "Agricultural production cooperatives". ^[31] In the mid-1950s, a second land reform during the Great Leap Forward compelled individual farmers to join collectives, which, in turn, were grouped into People's communes with centrally controlled property rights and an egalitarian principle of distribution. This policy was generally a failure in terms of production. ^[32]

I would recommend the The Tragedy of Liberation by Frank Dikotter (his other two books about the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are also excellent ) or Mao by June Chang. For a better understanding of the Russian Revolution (you do not even dispute that you endorsed policies that caused of millions of deaths in regard to the Russian Revolution), I recommend A People's Tragedy by Orlando Figes. Robert Service's biographies of Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky are also excellent.

10 minutes ago, postje said:

First of all, the Chinese Communist did not win the revolution until 1949. The had some interim reform in the areas they controlled prior to victory that was less radical than when they won the revolution, because they did not want to alienate the more successful peasants. Second, when they actually won the implemented collectivization and then turned to a more draconian version of it the "Great Leap Forward." Perhaps you should have kept reading a little further in the Wikipedia entry, which notes:

Land seized from Landlords was brought under collective ownership , resulting in the creation of "Agricultural production cooperatives". ^[31] In the mid-1950s, a second land reform during the Great Leap Forward compelled individual farmers to join collectives, which, in turn, were grouped into People's communes with centrally controlled property rights and an egalitarian principle of distribution. This policy was generally a failure in terms of production. ^[32]

I would recommend the The Tragedy of Liberation by Frank Dikotter (his other two books about the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution are also excellent ) or Mao by June Chang. For a better understanding of the Russian Revolution (you do not even dispute that you endorsed policies that caused of millions of deaths in regard to the Russian Revolution), I recommend A People's Tragedy by Orlando Figes. Robert Service's biographies of Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky are also excellent.

I'm sorry, did you not see me earlier in this thread say that what stalin did to the ukrainians was completely unacceptable?

You're continuing to misrepresent my point, which I've tried to abundantly make clear to you so it cannot be misinterpreted.

a) Land redistribution reduced inequality, and it is generally a good thing to change agriculture away from fuedalism when you have the industrial capacity to do so

b) Killing people alongside those programs is bad and should be opposed/criticized

2 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Medical Tourism is great and all, except that is the wealthy going to get the best treatment possible. It is HARDLY indicative of the total healthcare system, but rather the top level of care for those who can afford it.

It also is unsurprising that a country with the highest medical costs per capita would have a high price associated with medical tourism.

What this shows is that there is good healthcare and good outcomes available for people, if they are well off enough to afford it. And that by comparison there are those disadvantaged who cannot take advantage of that good healthcare. Needless to say, that is a dumb statistic to look at unless you're wealthy and interested in medical tourism.

Medical R&D - great. But it doesn't translate to actual, measurable results for the population. What does it matter that we are one of the best countries in researching new treatments and analytical tools, if the results are unaffordable for the population?

Results are what is important, and our results are bad compared to other industrialized countries, and comparable to Cuba.

We have MRIs and CTs! Great! Except we use them too frequently, and are trying to get doctors to proscribe imaging studies less:

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/medical-scanning-rates-continue-rise-despite-health-risks

None of these sources sited say that the US is better at healthcare results than any other industrialized nation. The facts are that the US lags behind other industrialized nations in cost of medical care per capita, and the commonly agreed measures of public health. Arguments that the US is actually doing great either looks at healthcare accessible primarily by the wealthy (Medical Tourism / Advanced Care) or completely misses the point.

Are we worse than Cuba? No, not really. But we're not better than Cuba either, and that if nothing else should be a giant indictment on our national medical system as a whole.

We COULD be better. But we're not.

But lifetime expectancy is a good indicator with all its flaws? Ok. Then provide an alternative to make your claims that are "results are bad". What defines "common"? There are studies that use socialized medicine as one of the aspects of their ranking. So, please provide something better.

Medical R&D does translate to actual, measurable results. We have measurable results on vaccines for Covid. How do you think that came to be? Companies had to fund research.

2 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

I'm tired of effort posting against unsourced claims, .coms, Wikipedia, and paywall sources, so I'm just gonna say whatever I want from here on out and this will be my source:

America is the best! People dying from easily preventable and poverty related diseases is a moral failing on them and not at all an indictment of how we are unable to care for our fellow Americans! We certainly couldn't CHANGE any of that. People that make more money than any human being could reasonably use might be sad that their high score didn't go up enough.

You do realize that I found the paywall source because of your link, right? https://www.econlib.org/about-that-cuban-life-expectancy/ I even pointed that out in my post. I just decided to include the original source in case anyone wanted to read it.

I guess, now that Armada is no longer part of FFG, the mods have abandoned this section of the fora.

****, a bunch of grown *** men/women/other arguing politics on a forum for.... a game about moving plastic ships around a table and making *pew* *pew* noises. I'm including myself here when i say, holy **** we're being stupid. This isn't a forum for politics, take those elsewhere please. This is for armada. I don't care whether you want to eat the rich or abolish taxation cause thats irrelevant, this is for armada. This thread is supposed to be about expressing sympathy for people who lost their jobs not for peddling your political ideology. Grow up and take it elsewhere.

On 11/24/2020 at 7:15 PM, BlueSquadronPilot said:

Sad to hear about the folks at FFG who have lost their jobs. Hope they were offered to transfer over to the new studio and if not, I hope they land on their feet soon. Bad time during a pandemic.

Your dedication and work to your games and community is very much appreciated. Thank you!

It may take a bit to find new work but hang in there, all of you.

Finally someone actually using this thread for it's actual purpose.

42 minutes ago, Jabby said:

****, a bunch of grown *** men/women/other arguing politics on a forum for.... a game about moving plastic ships around a table and making *pew* *pew* noises. I'm including myself here when i say, holy **** we're being stupid. This isn't a forum for politics, take those elsewhere please. This is for armada. I don't care whether you want to eat the rich or abolish taxation cause thats irrelevant, this is for armada. This thread is supposed to be about expressing sympathy for people who lost their jobs not for peddling your political ideology. Grow up and take it elsewhere.

Yes please everyone give us your "thoughts and prayers", dont talk about the underlying issues that constantly create the need for that and then lets all forget about it and move on and do the same thing over and over again everytime it miraculously keeps happening again. *sarcasm off*

Im sorry but i don't buy anyone's "sympathy" anymore, if all they wanna do is say that they "feel so bad about this" and nothing else. Thats not caring. Thats wanting to meet a certain social expectation for your own benefit. It's so that we can calmly say to ourselfes "I did all i have to do". It's also a mechanism of distancing yourself from the realization that we all might actually have a certain responsibility for what happens in our society.

Sympathy is fine and all but unless you dont actually wanna do anything to change things you can as well just not say anything at all. It's like seeing someone that is getting beaten up on the sideway and you say "oh look thats so bad" and then just walk away. Can we at least talk about WHY people are getting beaten up, even if we may not currently be in a postion to stop it from happening?

Also, the initial post of this thread was already political. How people make a living through their work has always been a political issue.

And by the way, we can discuss whatever topic we like to on this forum as long as it stays fairly civil. If you dont wanna talk about this specific issue, dont do it then.

2 hours ago, Jabby said:

Finally someone actually using this thread for it's actual purpose.

No one is forcing you to read it. If you aren’t interested in the discussion choose one of the other topics that are available. Or block us. Or ignore us.

I mean if we're just goofing in someone's thread, let's go for it.

1 hour ago, >kkj said:

It's like seeing someone that is getting beaten up on the sideway and you say "oh look thats so bad" and then just walk away.

1 hour ago, >kkj said:

Can we at least talk about WHY people are getting beaten up, even if we may not currently be in a postion to stop it from happening say " oh look thats so bad We should really stop this" and then just walk away stand there?

Go hard. Eat your local rich and/or congress person.

3 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Can we at least talk about WHY people are getting beaten up, even if we may not currently be in a postion to stop it from happening say " oh look thats so bad We should really stop this" and then just walk away stand there?

Realization of the problem is at least a first step towards change. Yeah its not doing anything on its own but its required for actual actions. I find your allegory that ignorance of a problem's reasons and trying to learn more about the details of a problem so you can base your future actions upon that would be morally equal rather off.

16 minutes ago, >kkj said:

Realization of the problem is at least a first step towards change. Yeah its not doing anything on its own but its required for actual actions. I find your allegory that ignorance of a problem's reasons and trying to learn more about the details of a problem so you can base your future actions upon that would be morally equal rather off.

Net result is the same in my book but

¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

who am I to judge?

[Also, because this conversation reminded me of it, here's some Monty Python! Cheers mate.]

Spicy! We have a great game. Sorry it's had to move on and people are always the collateral. I don't think I've played a more balanced game. I sincerely hope the talent behind it find a new home.

If only our politics was the same and we talked rules not identity.

On 11/25/2020 at 9:10 PM, >kkj said:

Yes please everyone give us your "thoughts and prayers", dont talk about the underlying issues that constantly create the need for that and then lets all forget about it and move on and do the same thing over and over again everytime it miraculously keeps happening again. *sarcasm off*

Im sorry but i don't buy anyone's "sympathy" anymore, if all they wanna do is say that they "feel so bad about this" and nothing else. Thats not caring. Thats wanting to meet a certain social expectation for your own benefit. It's so that we can calmly say to ourselfes "I did all i have to do". It's also a mechanism of distancing yourself from the realization that we all might actually have a certain responsibility for what happens in our societ

Last I checked arguing on a message board for a tabletop game didn't actually get anything done. Actually going out and doing things gets things done, not bickering like this thread.

1 hour ago, Jabby said:

Last I checked arguing on a message board for a tabletop game didn't actually get anything done. Actually going out and doing things gets things done, not bickering like this thread.

Yes. And guess what, argueing here isn't the only thing that im doing in my life. You know what does even less good than discussing what can be done? Defending the bad things that are in place. Because those people probably dont have any interest in doing something about it IRL too.