3 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:I think it's a mistake to call corporations greedy as well.
It's like calling a virus greedy. Growth, regardless of the consequence to other entities, is the point.
I won't be mad at the flu, but I'll still get a vaccine.
Actually a better comparison would be a forest fire: there are real benefits to them, we want them, and they still need to be controlled.
3 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:The problem is that this is what the argument for socialism has been based on in this thread from the beginning. Corporations are greedy, and others know better than them what do to with their money. My counter is that wanting their money is jealousy. There is no way to untwine these personal motives if one side just says "you need to do this to help people because otherwise you are greedy".
Jealousy is envy. I do not envy corporations their money. I want the poor and underprivileged to get a fair shake. How can you NOT want food for the hungry, medicine for the sick? And how do we pay for it? A more sane tax scheme. You can’t care about America without caring about Americans.
You still haven’t answered how the vast majority of American wealth being controlled by a tiny minority is good for society.
And as far as Trump paying what he owed... this guy is a self-proclaimed multimillionaire. Why did he pay only $1500 in taxes over two years? If that is what he owed, he was either cheating, or the system is so ridiculously out of whack that it’s absolutely hopeless. So which is it? Is your precious system broken? Or is your leader corrupt?
12 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:The problem is that this is what the argument for socialism has been based on in this thread from the beginning. Corporations are greedy, and others know better than them what do to with their money. My counter is that wanting their money is jealousy. There is no way to untwine these personal motives if one side just says "you need to do this to help people because otherwise you are greedy".
That’s a massive oversimplification of the argument, and in large part inaccurate. Corporations are not so much greedy, they’re just designed to make money, not happiness. In fact, unless powerfully regulated, their algorithms push profit at the expense of all else. Environment, health, any public good is secondary to profit, if it’s part of the program at all.
6 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:Jealousy is envy. I do not envy corporations their money. I want the poor and underprivileged to get a fair shake. How can you NOT want food for the hungry, medicine for the sick? And how do we pay for it? A more sane tax scheme. You can’t care about America without caring about Americans.
You still haven’t answered how the vast majority of American wealth being controlled by a tiny minority is good for society.And as far as Trump paying what he owed... this guy is a self-proclaimed multimillionaire. Why did he pay only $1500 in taxes over two years? If that is what he owed, he was either cheating, or the system is so ridiculously out of whack that it’s absolutely hopeless. So which is it? Is your precious system broken? Or is your leader corrupt?
Sigh. There is this thing called a tax deduction. All Americans use it. Turbo Tax and H&R Block try to sell you that they will get you more of them. It's not corruption.
You started by telling me that corporations only care about numbers when laying people off. You told me Trump was a dictator for challenging the election through a legal system. You are saying I'm heartless. You now call Trump corrupt for using deductions. You want to know the common theme? You think people are immoral when they think something different or are working towards an outcome that you don't like.
7 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Sigh. There is this thing called a tax deduction. All Americans use it. Turbo Tax and H&R Block try to sell you that they will get you more of them. It's not corruption.
You started by telling me that corporations only care about numbers when laying people off.
[...]
So that would be "broken," right? People who should have a greater ability to pay taxes while leading comfortable lives, often making more use of public infrastructure, paying fewer taxes?
And that example isn't a subjective moral judgement. The others, maybe. Do you believe the layoffs were driven by something other than profit (personal hatred of the fired employees?), or just that profit was prioritized over another value system?
13 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Sigh. There is this thing called a tax deduction. All Americans use it. Turbo Tax and H&R Block try to sell you that they will get you more of them. It's not corruption.
You started by telling me that corporations only care about numbers when laying people off. You told me Trump was a dictator for challenging the election through a legal system. You are saying I'm heartless. You now call Trump corrupt for using deductions. You want to know the common theme? You think people are immoral when they think something different or are working towards an outcome that you don't like.
Ah yes, immorality. The first threat is someone's morality isn't it. Because if the outcome is for themselves over the people it's moral from their point of view.
There is not a company or nation on this planet that doesn't look at the people and see numbers. Particularly in the United States; Whats their social security number, how much did they produce, how much revenue did they generate, how much did they cost, what is the expected cost if we burn that person, how quickly can we replace them...
As for tax deductions, are they legal? Sure. Should those with more wealth be paying more in taxes to seven other nations than the nation they are the leader of? Probably not, we would traditionally call that a "conflict of interest", but regardless if whether you think its reasonable or not to pay that much in taxes after donating money to your own charity that goes toward paying your legal fees... the question rises how many people who follow trump are not going to pay their taxes next year or find ways to avoid paying taxes? After all, if the president doesn't pay taxes, why should I?
Also, if the US saw what was happening in the US, the US would sanction the **** out of the US. If not threaten military intervention.
Just now, Ling27 said:Also, if the US saw what was happening in the US, the US would sanction the **** out of the US. If not threaten military intervention.
"**** Americans! They ruined America!"
2 hours ago, Cpt ObVus said:Right on. I’m willing to do my part. If the government needs more tax money from me to fund the programs we’re talking about that will keep people safe and strong and happy, I will pay. Though it would be a lot more profitable to hold the truly wealthy accountable for their share of the tax burden first.
I’m willing to give up another 10%, but not while Bezos and Trump pay nothing (not that I think Trump actually has much of the money he says he does, but you can’t go around talking about how rich you are and then pay $750 per year in taxes).
There’s actually a spot on the form where you can write in an extra amount you’d like to pay. At least, I noticed one a few years ago before we started using software to do figure our taxes out.
Yeah. Listen @BigPoppaPalpatine , if you think it’s remotely okay for a self-proclaimed multimillionaire president to pay $750 in taxes, I don’t even know where to begin.
If that’s the America you love, and the America you want, and the America you’re proud of, have at it, man. Just understand: it’s not a great look. And worse, people are suffering terribly because enough people are letting this sort of thing happen. But if you refuse to care, I can’t make you.
5 minutes ago, The Jabbawookie said:So that would be "broken," right? People who should have a greater ability to pay taxes while leading comfortable lives, often making more use of public infrastructure, paying fewer taxes?
And that example isn't a subjective moral judgement. The others, maybe. Do you believe the layoffs were driven by something other than profit (personal hatred of the fired employees?), or just that profit was prioritized over another value system?
Your problem is that you limited the argument to "shouldn't companies pay more taxes". That sounds nice. The truth is that incentives are given to reinvest into the economy, and that gives them deductions. So, companies like Amazon try to open up a second headquarters. They invest into their infrastructure and create jobs.
As for layoffs, of course it is about profits. Again, this is an oversimification. You stay profitable, and you stay alive. This means that you pay workers. If you aren't profitable, then you can't expect to keep paying workers for long. This isn't news.
2 minutes ago, Tayloraj100 said:There’s actually a spot on the form where you can write in an extra amount you’d like to pay. At least, I noticed one a few years ago before we started using software to do figure our taxes out.
You missed the part where I said, “but not while Bezos and Trump pay nothing.”
I’m a Democratic Socialist, not a sucker.
1 minute ago, Cpt ObVus said:Yeah. Listen @BigPoppaPalpatine , if you think it’s remotely okay for a self-proclaimed multimillionaire president to pay $750 in taxes, I don’t even know where to begin.
If that’s the America you love, and the America you want, and the America you’re proud of, have at it, man. Just understand: it’s not a great look. And worse, people are suffering terribly because enough people are letting this sort of thing happen. But if you refuse to care, I can’t make you.
Yep, so I'm evil. Thanks for playing.
3 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:You missed the part where I said, “but not while Bezos and Trump pay nothing.”
I’m a Democratic Socialist, not a sucker.
I’m going to let that set-up lie, but I do appreciate it. 😆
3 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Yep, so I'm evil.
1 minute ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Yep, so I'm evil. Thanks for playing.
Are you? I don’t think you’re evil. I don’t know if good and evil really exist, in any kind of cosmic sense.
You do sound selfish, callous, uncaring, and not particularly interested in allowing America to go on sustainably, despite (presumably) liking America. I don’t really have enough information to say definitively that you are all of those things, but every time I ask if you care about Americans less fortunate than you, you “Sigh,” and then tell me I’m trying to paint you in some bad light. I’m not. I’m actually struggling to understand why you think the way you do. Because there are a lot of people like you, and if people like me don’t figure you out real soon, this country is in massive trouble.
3 minutes ago, Tayloraj100 said:I’m going to let that set-up lie, but I do appreciate it. 😆
No setup. I’m just not really in a position to be like, “Oooh, I can solve America all on my own,” and I want the big boys to help.
18 minutes ago, Ling27 said:Ah yes, immorality. The first threat is someone's morality isn't it. Because if the outcome is for themselves over the people it's moral from their point of view.
There is not a company or nation on this planet that doesn't look at the people and see numbers. Particularly in the United States; Whats their social security number, how much did they produce, how much revenue did they generate, how much did they cost, what is the expected cost if we burn that person, how quickly can we replace them...
As for tax deductions, are they legal? Sure. Should those with more wealth be paying more in taxes to seven other nations than the nation they are the leader of? Probably not, we would traditionally call that a "conflict of interest", but regardless if whether you think its reasonable or not to pay that much in taxes after donating money to your own charity that goes toward paying your legal fees... the question rises how many people who follow trump are not going to pay their taxes next year or find ways to avoid paying taxes? After all, if the president doesn't pay taxes, why should I?
Also, if the US saw what was happening in the US, the US would sanction the **** out of the US. If not threaten military intervention.
Again, this assumes that companies don't understand the impact. You are implying that the people running corporations are all sociopaths who have no empathy and just look at numbers.
Again, Trump actually paid more than he owed. I do love how that fact is being ignored.
1 minute ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Your problem is that you limited the argument to "shouldn't companies pay more taxes". That sounds nice. The truth is that incentives are given to reinvest into the economy, and that gives them deductions. So, companies like Amazon try to open up a second headquarters. They invest into their infrastructure and create jobs.
As for layoffs, of course it is about profits. Again, this is an oversimification. You stay profitable, and you stay alive. This means that you pay workers. If you aren't profitable, then you can't expect to keep paying workers for long. This isn't news.
Except those jobs are largely achieved through buying other corporations (Whole Foods, where people who were already employed are... still employed?) or eclipsing competition (Barnes & Noble, for instance.)
Even newly created markets can eliminate old markets when their customers take their money elsewhere. It's a competition.
The services provided don't necessarily create enough jobs to warrant these tax cuts, the high demand for work devalues what constitutes an acceptable wage, and the most profitable direction for expansion is often not the one that creates the most jobs or distributes that money the farthest down the ladder.
Hence the existence of wealth inequality.
It's not news to me. I was surprised because you indicated there was something incorrect with this:
35 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:You started by telling me that corporations only care about numbers when laying people off.
So you're agreeing they do. We're on the same page there.
Based on that, the aims of corporations don't align with what I feel the aims of government should be
1 minute ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Again, Trump actually paid more than he owed. I do love how that fact is being ignored.
What, because of that refund for ~$70 million that’s currently under audit?
5 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:You do sound selfish, callous, uncaring, and not particularly interested in allowing America to go on sustainably, despite (presumably) liking America...
...and then tell me I’m trying to paint you in some bad light. I’m not.
Really?
Just now, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Really?
Really. I’m just telling you how you sound to me. Honestly.
Just now, Cpt ObVus said:Really. I’m just telling you how you sound to me. Honestly.
Then you can go **** yourself.
Thankfully for all of us, there is actual evidence of when someone is gas-lighting. As someone who has worked marketing and psychological operations for the US Army, I know a lost cause when I see one, and have decided to perform a great method of removing the frustration. I would recommend @Cpt ObVus and @The Jabbawookie do the same in sending this person to your ignore list. Being obstinate despite the fact that almost everyone has disagreed with you since the start of this thread does little for anyone's opinion of you.
11 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Then you can go **** yourself.
For the record, I don't think you're selfish, callous, uncaring, or attempting to destroy the country.
I think you either want fundamentally different things from society and government than me, or have a flawed understanding of how they function.
This discussion seems to have run its course, arriving more or less where expected.
1 hour ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:Then you can go **** yourself.
I can’t see why you’re offended. I’m sitting here telling you that it sounds like you’re not particularly concerned with the poor and underprivileged. Your response has been to defend the system. I’ve asked you time and again about why the wealth gap doesn’t bother you, why you’re not more sympathetic to the less fortunate, etc., and you return with non-answers. I’m asking you to tell me what you think society’s obligations to its citizens are. That’s it, man. I don’t know you well enough to tell you what your motives are, I can only tell you what impressions your arguments give me.
If you actually care about the less privileged, what do you propose America can do to help them? Do you think staying the capitalist course is the best option?
I’m honestly asking, because I really feel like I don’t understand how about 30% of the country thinks. That’s a big blind spot. And it would be way easier if I just wrote that whole block of humans off as ignorant, uncaring a-holes, but I don’t think that can be it. I’m asking for answers.