1 minute ago, Cruzer said:

Also worthy to assume it's trolling.

I didn't realize I was a troll for making a joke. So inclusive of you.

4 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:

I didn't realize I was a troll for making a joke. So inclusive of you.

You’re definitely a troll.

Just now, ninclouse2000 said:

You’re definitely a troll.

And you are in a game forum trying to make this political. You also tried to insult me for pointing out your incorrect opinion. I want to read about Armada. It's too bad I have to look at this.

2 minutes ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:

And you are in a game forum trying to make this political. You also tried to insult me for pointing out your incorrect opinion. I want to read about Armada. It's too bad I have to look at this.

You dont have to though. Just dont follow this "Lay offs"-threat. And let others enjoy a political discussion if they want to have one.

Just now, >kkj said:

You dont have to though. Just dont follow this "Lay offs"-threat. And let others enjoy a political discussion if they want to have one.

Then they should at least know the definition of capitalism before pretending to know anything.

34 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Never let anyone convince you that there is a dichotomous black or white answer to complicated issues. Everything is almost always shades of grey.

True true.

As an American, I respect all of your opinions and such but you can keep your socialist political systems in Europe and elsewhere and allow us over here to respectfully disagree with your views. The states here with the biggest issues are the ones where our socialist politicians have created messes trying to provide for everyone which ultimately provides for no one. As for the comments regarding the Cuban political system, why is it so many Cubans will throw together anything that floats in an attempt to escape such a wonderful system? Anyway, this game of who's political system works best will never end until the Communist Chinese conquer all of us and say which system is best.

19 minutes ago, Grand Admiral Buford said:

The states here with the biggest issues are the ones where our socialist politicians have created messes trying to provide for everyone which ultimately provides for no one.

I'd like some specifics, if you'd be willing to provide them.

Which states are having the biggest issues?

Which truly "socialist" politicians do we have?

What is an issue?

If we define "having issues" as reliance on federal aid (as a percentage of general revenue,) we have MT , WY , LA , MS , AZ , NM , AK, KY , WV , IN making the top ten.

I doubt anyone would call those states socialist.

Edit: As an American, if that matters at all.

14 minutes ago, Grand Admiral Buford said:

As an American, I respect all of your opinions and such but you can keep your socialist political systems in Europe and elsewhere and allow us over here to respectfully disagree with your views. The states here with the biggest issues are the ones where our socialist politicians have created messes trying to provide for everyone which ultimately provides for no one. As for the comments regarding the Cuban political system, why is it so many Cubans will throw together anything that floats in an attempt to escape such a wonderful system? Anyway, this game of who's political system works best will never end until the Communist Chinese conquer all of us and say which system is best.

Your greatest mistake is assuming that we are not a democratically socialist country in several ways already. Do you like not having to pay for the fire-department? The police? Roadwork? The military? Congratulations, you're a democratic socialist, just like all the airlines, fast-food corporations, and every publicly traded bank that got bailed out when the economy went in the toilet!

So, what's the bad news? If you get sick, the hospital can drain your bank account before you even know how much you're gonna pay for X operation ; you are not guaranteed a roof over your head, food on your table, or clean water to drink because companies are supposed to make money off of those things; and the supposedly pro free-market capitalist government can go on using your tax money to prop up the most profitable industries on the planet while using far less than 50% of what you payed for things that will benefit you and the people you love. Ain't our post-capitalist "political system" grand?

3 hours ago, BigPoppaPalpatine said:

Then they should at least know the definition of capitalism before pretending to know anything.

What are you qualifications friend? And what framework are you viewing capitalism through? Capitalism has different definitions depending on the lens you're using. The marxist definition and the neoclassical definition are very distinct. In fact, suggesting capitalism has one definition shows you need to do a bit more research.

3 hours ago, Grand Admiral Buford said:

As an American, I respect all of your opinions and such but you can keep your socialist political systems in Europe and elsewhere and allow us over here to respectfully disagree with your views. The states here with the biggest issues are the ones where our socialist politicians have created messes trying to provide for everyone which ultimately provides for no one. As for the comments regarding the Cuban political system, why is it so many Cubans will throw together anything that floats in an attempt to escape such a wonderful system? Anyway, this game of who's political system works best will never end until the Communist Chinese conquer all of us and say which system is best.

Let's address Cuba, shall we? It has been under intense economic warfare since the revolution. You know, the revolution to overthrow the Batista regime. You know, the Batistas? Backed by the US government the US Mafia interests, zero democracy, Police state, regular torture, murder, ****, massacres. Complete crackdown of personal liberties. Not great stuff. When the revolution succeeded, the US was pissed at losing an ally, and placed them under embargo. They've had to develop for 60 years cut off from most of the world. 20 of those years, they had limited support from the USSR, but still. Now, they're considered the most sustainably developed nation on earth. They have a one party democracy(using primaries to select competing candidates) which, despite significant problems, has done a fantastic job with the resources they have available to them. They're extremely poor and have better metrics for things like life expectancy, infant mortality, literacy rates, political engagement... the list goes on.

Why would China be interested in conquering the US? China isn't a military superpower, and arguably not imperialist. Also, China hasn't been communist since the Dengists took over control and liberalized their economy. So in fantasy land where China and the US get into conventional war(where are the nuclear weapons?), it would be state capitalism vs liberal capitalism

3 hours ago, Cruzer said:

Your greatest mistake is assuming that we are not a democratically socialist country in several ways already. Do you like not having to pay for the fire-department? The police? Roadwork? The military? Congratulations, you're a democratic socialist, just like all the airlines, fast-food corporations, and every publicly traded bank that got bailed out when the economy went in the toilet!

So, what's the bad news? If you get sick, the hospital can drain your bank account before you even know how much you're gonna pay for X operation ; you are not guaranteed a roof over your head, food on your table, or clean water to drink because companies are supposed to make money off of those things; and the supposedly pro free-market capitalist government can go on using your tax money to prop up the most profitable industries on the planet while using far less than 50% of what you payed for things that will benefit you and the people you love. Ain't our post-capitalist "political system" grand?

A socialist country is a country where the means of production are controlled by the population at large. A democratic-socialist country is a socialist country where decisions are made using a recreation of bourgeoisie "democracy" without the rich existing to put their thumbs on the scale, or a participatory democracy model. The US doesn't meet these requirements. The fire department, police, roadwork, and military all exist within the framework of capitalism. In fact, capitalism couldn't survive without these institutions, despite what libertarians would have you believe.

We still exist within capitalism. The two owners of the means of production are the bourgeoisie and the government, which exists at the behest of the bourgeoisie to maintain legitimacy and settle intra-class conflict.

So, the moral of this thread is...

If you're ever trapped alone on a deserted island, simply make a political statement and someone will show up to argue with you!

9 hours ago, Cruzer said:

Your greatest mistake is assuming that we are not a democratically socialist country in several ways already. Do you like not having to pay for the fire-department? The police? Roadwork? The military? Congratulations, you're a democratic socialist, just like all the airlines, fast-food corporations, and every publicly traded bank that got bailed out when the economy went in the toilet!

So, what's the bad news? If you get sick, the hospital can drain your bank account before you even know how much you're gonna pay for X operation ; you are not guaranteed a roof over your head, food on your table, or clean water to drink because companies are supposed to make money off of those things; and the supposedly pro free-market capitalist government can go on using your tax money to prop up the most profitable industries on the planet while using far less than 50% of what you payed for things that will benefit you and the people you love. Ain't our post-capitalist "political system" grand?

Saying those things are socialist ideas is kinda wrong but your point still stands. Also, we all DO pay for fire-department, police, military, etc. It's just a flat rate collected through taxes. There is not reason at all why healthcare for example couldnt be handled like that as well.

Fun little fiction as a sidenote : Can you imagine what it would be like if there were different private police and fire department contractors? Can you imagine anyone defending that with the same arguments that are commonly used against "socialized medicine"?

"It's better if i can choose the police department that i like the most" - "That's NOT freedom if i can not choose from multiple expensive-as-**** fire departments that charge me even before they see the fire!" - "Government-run police? That's Socialism!!!" - "You just want to take away everyone's right to choose their individual custom amount of police brutality!" - "Why should I pay through my taxes for the fire department to put out YOUR fire? That's your own problem!"

It's ridiculous how people dont realize that they are basically argueing for pure social darwinism/arnarchy and the abolition of civilization with these kind of arguements but they still bring them forth because against EVIL sOcIaLisM i guess every argument is legit or whatever.

Now the really important question is, is there anyone left at ffg after the "layoff", however it actually went down (not denying it happened, just do not know how big it was), who will shut down this thread or do they even care any more?

2 hours ago, Grand Admiral Buford said:

Now the really important question is, is there anyone left at ffg after the "layoff", however it actually went down (not denying it happened, just do not know how big it was), who will shut down this thread or do they even care any more?

If it helps, I get the sense that the X-Wing guys are way more right-wing, politically speaking.

My fellow leftist Armada guys are killing it!

1 hour ago, Cpt ObVus said:

If it helps, I get the sense that the X-Wing guys are way more right-wing, politically speaking.

My fellow leftist Armada guys are killing it!

As a veteran of internet politics arguments of over 20 years, I am sitting this one out, because I have seen it fought many times before.

However it seems to me that the greater your physical and temporal distance from Communism, the keener you are on it. The Hungarians and Poles, for example, have robust views on it.

Those of you who are wondering why on earth those 'evil commies'/'capitalist pigs' don't see the world the way you do would find Jonathan Haidt's book "The Righteous Mind - why good people are divided by politics and religion" revelatory. Everyone should read it.

1 hour ago, flatpackhamster said:

As a veteran of internet politics arguments of over 20 years, I am sitting this one out, because I have seen it fought many times before.

However it seems to me that the greater your physical and temporal distance from Communism, the keener you are on it. The Hungarians and Poles, for example, have robust views on it.

Those of you who are wondering why on earth those 'evil commies'/'capitalist pigs' don't see the world the way you do would find Jonathan Haidt's book "The Righteous Mind - why good people are divided by politics and religion" revelatory. Everyone should read it.

Sitting this one out by posting inflammatory takes

Bwahaha. Poland is currently under the control of a fascist party. Banning abortion wholesale and banning LGBT people. As for Hungary..

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/

But enough of the past, let's talk about the present. Venezuela, a social democracy with a socialist ruling party, has a population with more faith in the democratic process than anywhere else in Latin America, and that's including the effects of the embargo and the attempted US backed coup.

In 2018, there was still overwhelming support for the communist project in Cuba based off of popular referendum.

Bolivia's people just pressured a military dictatorship, propped up by US support, into holding elections and honoring the results, returning the presidency to an elected socialist.

As for "The Righteous Mind" Haidt's sees the current conflict as a conflict between conservatives and liberals, which is hilarious. He completely lacks a historical or material analysis. What is happening is that people are moving left in a response to the failures of capitalism, and fascism is arising as a reaction by the capitalists. Take a random sample of socialist pundits. Look at who is paying them. Take a random sample of fascist pundits. look at who is paying them.

Then tell me that the polarization can be explained without delving into class conflict or material conditions. You'll find one side that is paid to push fascist propaganda, and one side that talks about the leftist project because they sincerely believe in it. I'm pretty sure the richest socialist pundits in the US are Chapo Trap House? And that's through crowdsourcing from their listeners.

6 hours ago, >kkj said:

Fun little fiction as a sidenote : Can you imagine what it would be like if there were different private police and fire department contractors? Can you imagine anyone defending that with the same arguments that are commonly used against "socialized medicine"?

In fact, we did have private fire departments for a time.

They were connected to gangs, and would sometimes have brawls while the buildings they were meant to save burned.

1 hour ago, flatpackhamster said:

As a veteran of internet politics arguments of over 20 years, I am sitting this one out, because I have seen it fought many times before.

However it seems to me that the greater your physical and temporal distance from Communism, the keener you are on it. The Hungarians and Poles, for example, have robust views on it.

Those of you who are wondering why on earth those 'evil commies'/'capitalist pigs' don't see the world the way you do would find Jonathan Haidt's book "The Righteous Mind - why good people are divided by politics and religion" revelatory. Everyone should read it.

Social Democracy =/= Communism. I want private property, and constitutionally protected freedoms, I just also want greater worker protections, more limited power for corporations, a more level economic playing field, socialized medicine, and guaranteed housing. Among a few other things.

I don’t know why people are afraid of these things. Every single one of them is good for people. But you can even talk to freshly laid off workers with no health care who may have to lose their houses in America, and if they’re dyed-in-the-wool conservatives, they’ll go out and vote for politicians who directly oppose all of these things and want to give tax breaks to the guys who just laid them off. It is absolutely mystifying.

55 minutes ago, ExplosiveTooka said:

Sitting this one out by posting inflammatory takes

Bwahaha. Poland is currently under the control of a fascist party. Banning abortion wholesale and banning LGBT people. As for Hungary..

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/

But enough of the past, let's talk about the present. Venezuela, a social democracy with a socialist ruling party, has a population with more faith in the democratic process than anywhere else in Latin America, and that's including the effects of the embargo and the attempted US backed coup.

In 2018, there was still overwhelming support for the communist project in Cuba based off of popular referendum.

Bolivia's people just pressured a military dictatorship, propped up by US support, into holding elections and honoring the results, returning the presidency to an elected socialist.

As for "The Righteous Mind" Haidt's sees the current conflict as a conflict between conservatives and liberals, which is hilarious. He completely lacks a historical or material analysis. What is happening is that people are moving left in a response to the failures of capitalism, and fascism is arising as a reaction by the capitalists. Take a random sample of socialist pundits. Look at who is paying them. Take a random sample of fascist pundits. look at who is paying them.

Then tell me that the polarization can be explained without delving into class conflict or material conditions. You'll find one side that is paid to push fascist propaganda, and one side that talks about the leftist project because they sincerely believe in it. I'm pretty sure the richest socialist pundits in the US are Chapo Trap House? And that's through crowdsourcing from their listeners.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you about Haidt's book, because that isn't what I took from it at all.

The rest of your post is as ideologically possessed as everything you write, sans nuance, complex issues reflected through a simple prism.

Your ideology is a faith to you. That's what you should have taken from the Haidt book.

29 minutes ago, Cpt ObVus said:

Social Democracy =/= Communism. I want private property, and constitutionally protected freedoms, I just also want greater worker protections, more limited power for corporations, a more level economic playing field, socialized medicine, and guaranteed housing. Among a few other things.

I don’t know why people are afraid of these things. Every single one of them is good for people. But you can even talk to freshly laid off workers with no health care who may have to lose their houses in America, and if they’re dyed-in-the-wool conservatives, they’ll go out and vote for politicians who directly oppose all of these things and want to give tax breaks to the guys who just laid them off. It is absolutely mystifying.

Get the Haidt book then. I only recommended it because I found it useful for understanding the other person's point of view and why they are how they are.

I find this thread amusing. Most of you need to brush up on how corporations work.

Out of curiosity how many of you actually know how your company funds your wage each month?

27 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you about Haidt's book, because that isn't what I took from it at all.

The rest of your post is as ideologically possessed as everything you write, sans nuance, complex issues reflected through a simple prism.

Your ideology is a faith to you. That's what you should have taken from the Haidt book.

First off, it is okay to have an ideology. Everyone has an ideology. If you want to critique someone's position, "You have a position" is an unconvincing way to go about it.

Yes, my arguments here lack a certain nuance to them. If you'd like a more nuanced discussion, you're free to find me on discord, where I would happily delve into a serious discussion. Putting nuanced commentary here would hurt readability and digestibility. For that matter though, yours aren't either here, and claiming otherwise is silly.

I think you're mistaking plain old simple belief based on evidence for faith. As for taking things from Haidt

26 minutes ago, flatpackhamster said:

Get the Haidt book then. I only recommended it because I found it useful for understanding the other person's point of view and why they are how they are.

You don't seem to understand anyone's position here? You're convinced you understand polarization because you've read a book and presumably consumed other forms of media, but have you actually had in depth conversations with your political opponents? How successful have you been in deradicalizing them?

23 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

I find this thread amusing. Most of you need to brush up on how corporations work.

Out of curiosity how many of you actually know how your company funds your wage each month?

I'm curious. What do you mean?

As someone from Australia where we already have a version of free public health, I gotta say I'm pretty glad for it. As a father, I've made robust use of it over the years as well.

18 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Which truly "socialist" politicians do we have?

Kamala Harris, Nancy Pelosi. They're the big ones.