So i wanted to pick up my old rebel intimidation list that i built around Horton Salm with ion double tap and give it an overhaul to make it more competitive. here's what i ended up with:

Wedge Antilles (55)
Swarm Tactics (5)
Ion Torpedoes (5)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 65 Half Points: 33 Threshold: 3

Heff Tobber (44)
Intimidation (3)
"Zeb" Orrelios (1)
Leia Organa (7)
Pivot Wing (0)

Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 4

Arvel Crynyd (34)
Predator (2)
Intimidation (3)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 2

Jake Farrell (36)
Predator (2)
Ion Missiles (3)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

The idea is pretty simple: We have two powerful ionizers (Wedge and Jake) and two powerful blockers (Heff and Arvel). Te ionizers set up the bumps, and after the bumps you can 100 to 0 almost every ship in the game in a single turn. Why?

1. Both Heff and Arvel get double mods after they get bumped;

2. Intimidation and the bump means that the opponent's defense is at it's worst;

3. Wedge can also get double mods with the help of Jake, and Jake himself can setup his double mods without much trouble if the target is ionized;

4. The cheeky Swarm Tacticson Wedge means that him and Heff can Initiative kill almost anyone after a bump turn.

The big advantage that this version has over Horton's version is how much more independent each ship is. Obviously Wedge and Jake are very solid pieces, but Arvel against lower initiative ships is too good, and his value probably jumps to about 60+ points in those scenarios. The most synergy dependant piece is Heff, but his role in the list is inherently supportive, and i don't think that's an issue. Just the fact that he carries Leia means that he is the most likely to go first.

That's where i'm at right now, interested to see what you people think of this

I like it, but I think maybe jake is a bit unesseccary. Wedge can probably ionize almost anyone on his own, so you don't need a second ionizer. You could go for lieutenant blout instead. Give him ion missiles if you want to, but he can use that extra dice to great effect against a blocked enemy. He's also way cheaper, so you have room for upgrades/a bid.

You could also go for zeb attack shuttle with an ion turret. He can either strafe the battle zone with his ion turret to the side, or he can use his 3 dice primary attack for extra damage. You also have extra points for upgrades/bid

Other options are Sabine attack shuttle, Hera attack shuttle with Jyn Erso or dorsal turret, Jan Ors, Norra Wexly in the Y-wing, or even a Cavern Angels Zealot with contraband cybernetics for cheap 3 dice.

I feel like the focus on Ion miight not be the greatest? Ion missile especially as you're banking on 2+ uncancelled results on 3 dice when you could just go for damage on your blocked targets.

12 hours ago, Roller of blanks said:

I like it, but I think maybe jake is a bit unesseccary. Wedge can probably ionize almost anyone on his own, so you don't need a second ionizer. You could go for lieutenant blout instead. Give him ion missiles if you want to, but he can use that extra dice to great effect against a blocked enemy. He's also way cheaper, so you have room for upgrades/a bid.

You could also go for zeb attack shuttle with an ion turret. He can either strafe the battle zone with his ion turret to the side, or he can use his 3 dice primary attack for extra damage. You also have extra points for upgrades/bid

Other options are Sabine attack shuttle, Hera attack shuttle with Jyn Erso or dorsal turret, Jan Ors, Norra Wexly in the Y-wing, or even a Cavern Angels Zealot with contraband cybernetics for cheap 3 dice.

Zeb Attack Shuttle is a no-no because he is an essential part of Heff's loadout. Every other Shuttle pilot has the issue of forcing me to give up some upgrades, which I don't want to. My issue with Blount is also an issue I have with the attack shuttle: survivability. I've played a 5 ship version of this list before (Arvel, Horton, Heff, Blount and Tie Sabine) and I found that at least one of my pilots never got to fire in every game. Another thing which makes me not want to take Blount is his Independence. Jake works fine by himself, but if Blount doesn't have friends where he wants them, he is kind of an overpriced vulture.

Norra was actually a close second to Jake's spot in listbuilding, but to me it just felt that Jake was more well-rounded and was better in an endgame scenario than Norra.

10 hours ago, Nyxen said:

I feel like the focus on Ion miight not be the greatest? Ion missile especially as you're banking on 2+ uncancelled results on 3 dice when you could just go for damage on your blocked targets.

I think about this in the other way: Ion missiles are (probably) the cheapest 3 dice weapon in the game that does damage. If you get 0-1 damage, it's the same as firing a 3 die primary, which is fine. 2 hits means jackpot, since you're getting 1 damage plus your ion token. 3 hits might seem redundant, but I think that if you're already doing 1 dmg and ionizing you're already plenty happy.

I think that ion is very underestimated. It's tough to go into all the specifics, but Jake's biggest issue has always been how he isn't very threatening, with only a 2 die primary. For 3 points, I think that ion missiles makes Jake one **** of a threat.

Have you run missiles with Jake before?

Getting a lock with him is an exercise in frustration. You have to suspend pretty much everything about his ability to do it. It's especially problematic with range 2-3 missiles as they discourage boosting after locking which is the only way to get some leverage out of his ability for someone else.

My issue with this list is that all your opponent has to do is kill Wedge, and then you basically have no damage output.

There's too much support here and not enough things for them to support.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Have you run missiles with Jake before?

Getting a lock with him is an exercise in frustration. You have to suspend pretty much everything about his ability to do it. It's especially problematic with range 2-3 missiles as they discourage boosting after locking which is the only way to get some leverage out of his ability for someone else.

My issue with this list is that all your opponent has to do is kill Wedge, and then you basically have no damage output.

There's too much support here and not enough things for them to support.

Ion missiles are 3 points. I said that having them makes Jake that much more of a threat, but i never said the list relied on them. It's just an option. And you won't be getting full use of Jake's ability every turn, much like you won't be getting full use of Soontir's or Nien's, or Lu'lo's, or Norra's, or Dutch's...

Heff's gun does actually have more damage output than Wedge after a block, because of range 1 and double mods. And sure, after Wedge dies ion virtually doesn't exist anymore, but try telling any veteran X-wing player that they can only block if they are ionizing their opponents...

Also, the usual issue that blockers have is that they can't shoot after they block, but in this list both blockers get to shoot anyway, so you can afford to only run 4 ships

The reason i chose these pilots is because they can do the job themselves... Jake doesn't need support, much like Arvel. Heff is more synergy reliant, but he is still a plenty capable pilot by himself

2 hours ago, LeMightyASP said:

Ion missiles are 3 points. I said that having them makes Jake that much more of a threat, but i never said the list relied on them. It's just an option.

Only three points, but three points that could be spent elsewhere on something that might be more effective than 'just an option'. R3 Astro on Wedge as just one example.

2 hours ago, LeMightyASP said:

And you won't be getting full use of Jake's ability every turn, much like you won't be getting full use of Soontir's or Nien's, or Lu'lo's, or Norra's, or Dutch's...

No, but the easiest time to get something out of Jake's ability is the same time you'd be looking for the lock to set up an ion missile shot - the first engagement. It's not too difficult to plan and reliably execute an approach that uses Jake to give Wedge double mods on the first approach - it's what happens once you get in the mix that makes it tougher to use his ability. But that's also when you want the ion to control the second turn of engagement and get your blocks right.

2 hours ago, LeMightyASP said:

Heff's gun does actually have more damage output than Wedge after a block, because of range 1 and double mods.

But you said yourself that Heff is relying on Wedge for Swarm Tactics to fire before the opponent and not get initiative killed. Once Wedge goes, you've lost one of your only two decent guns and it's now harder for the other one to do its job. This is why Wedge is such an easy first target. Plus, with Wedge out of the way the opponent doesn't have to bother playing Heff's game. All you have to do is not go near him.

Double mods are always nice, but they're less effective the more the likelihood that you will have to spend that focus token defensively first.

2 hours ago, LeMightyASP said:

Also, the usual issue that blockers have is that they can't shoot after they block, but in this list both blockers get to shoot anyway, so you can afford to only run 4 ships

But also the usual benefit blockers have is that there's at least one ship they can't be shot by. Zeb undoes that too. Now all the people that Heff blocks get to shoot him too, and without Wedge on the board they will get to shoot Heff first.

And even with Wedge on the board, you're tying your I6 big gun to range 1 of a ship that moves at I2. Swarm Tactics does nothing until engagement. So once you've moved Heff, you've given away information of where Wedge likely wants to be which makes it easier for anyone I3-I5 to block Wedge.

I really don't like Swarm Tactics on anything that isn't obviously going to move around as a big jousting block anyway. It just telegraphs too much on ships that would normally prefer a more open dial.

I'm not saying there aren't things that this list could do well, just that I think it'd get a bit desperate in terms of damage output after Wedge dies. Heff, Arvel and Jake all being at different Initiatives with two of them wanting to block or at least bump just makes things awkward, IMO.

If you drop Ion missiles from Jake and Swarm Tactics, you can take Luke instead of Wedge and I think that already starts to look a little better. It's way easier for Luke to get those Ion torps off successfully and means he can be out in more of a flanking position.

Drop Leia and Predator from Arvel and you can take Thane instead of Jake. Not saying that's necessarily better. I think Leia would have even more to do with another X-Wing on the board, so she's a tough loss. And obviously Predator goes so well on Arvel. But I do think your potential damage output goes way up.

I love Jake and Arvel individually as pilots, I do think they're strong. But when they're together in a list, I can't help but see almost half the points going into lacklustre attack.

I think with that list, it's also way clearer what everyone's job is.

If Jake could reliably arc dodge, this would be a totally different story, of course. I really do think that I4 kills him as anything other than a support piece though.

When A-Wings either get cheaper or better, I can see lists like this having better legs. But making 2/4 ships an RZ-1 in the current points ecosystem just scans as a bad idea to me.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Only three points, but three points that could be spent elsewhere on something that might be more effective than 'just an option'. R3 Astro on Wedge as just one example.

No, but the easiest time to get something out of Jake's ability is the same time you'd be looking for the lock to set up an ion missile shot - the first engagement. It's not too difficult to plan and reliably execute an approach that uses Jake to give Wedge double mods on the first approach - it's what happens once you get in the mix that makes it tougher to use his ability. But that's also when you want the ion to control the second turn of engagement and get your blocks right.

But you said yourself that Heff is relying on Wedge for Swarm Tactics to fire before the opponent and not get initiative killed. Once Wedge goes, you've lost one of your only two decent guns and it's now harder for the other one to do its job. This is why Wedge is such an easy first target. Plus, with Wedge out of the way the opponent doesn't have to bother playing Heff's game. All you have to do is not go near him.

Double mods are always nice, but they're less effective the more the likelihood that you will have to spend that focus token defensively first.

But also the usual benefit blockers have is that there's at least one ship they can't be shot by. Zeb undoes that too. Now all the people that Heff blocks get to shoot him too, and without Wedge on the board they will get to shoot Heff first.

And even with Wedge on the board, you're tying your I6 big gun to range 1 of a ship that moves at I2. Swarm Tactics does nothing until engagement. So once you've moved Heff, you've given away information of where Wedge likely wants to be which makes it easier for anyone I3-I5 to block Wedge.

I really don't like Swarm Tactics on anything that isn't obviously going to move around as a big jousting block anyway. It just telegraphs too much on ships that would normally prefer a more open dial.

I'm not saying there aren't things that this list could do well, just that I think it'd get a bit desperate in terms of damage output after Wedge dies. Heff, Arvel and Jake all being at different Initiatives with two of them wanting to block or at least bump just makes things awkward, IMO.

If you drop Ion missiles from Jake and Swarm Tactics, you can take Luke instead of Wedge and I think that already starts to look a little better. It's way easier for Luke to get those Ion torps off successfully and means he can be out in more of a flanking position.

Drop Leia and Predator from Arvel and you can take Thane instead of Jake. Not saying that's necessarily better. I think Leia would have even more to do with another X-Wing on the board, so she's a tough loss. And obviously Predator goes so well on Arvel. But I do think your potential damage output goes way up.

I love Jake and Arvel individually as pilots, I do think they're strong. But when they're together in a list, I can't help but see almost half the points going into lacklustre attack.

I think with that list, it's also way clearer what everyone's job is.

If Jake could reliably arc dodge, this would be a totally different story, of course. I really do think that I4 kills him as anything other than a support piece though.

When A-Wings either get cheaper or better, I can see lists like this having better legs. But making 2/4 ships an RZ-1 in the current points ecosystem just scans as a bad idea to me.

I disagree with most of your points here.

I still don't think there's anything at 3 points that i would take over ion missiles, but i guess we can agree to disagree,we're not making much leeway in this particular discussion.

I didn't say that Heff relied on Swarm Tactics from Wedge to NOT get initiative killed, i said he could use that upgrade to initiative someone ELSE with Wedge. Also, don't forget that anyone that gets blocked gets their action stolen by Heff, so there's also less heat coming to him. However, the more i think about Swarm Tactics the more i think that you're right, it's a bit too awkward unless i'm flying in a big block where the ships move at relatively close initiatives.

I do, however, really like the suggestion of Luke, but i have been fiddling with this idea and have been having a lot of trouble finding a 4th ship to the list. Dropping Leia doesn't make sense to me. Also, adding Garven to a list consisting of an a-wing, a force user and a u-wing that gets extra actions seems rather pointless. One ship i have been considering is Roark Garnet, which is a pretty good upgrade for swarm tactics (it's pretty natural for Roark to have his gun pointing to Heff, if he wants to shoot someone that Heff blocked) but the damage output doesn't really get improved. This is what it would look like:

Luke Skywalker (62)
Ion Torpedoes (5)
Servomotor S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 67 Half Points: 34 Threshold: 3

Heff Tobber (44)
Intimidation (3)
"Zeb" Orrelios (1)
Leia Organa (7)
Pivot Wing (0)

Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 4

Arvel Crynyd (34)
Predator (2)
Intimidation (3)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 2

Roark Garnet (38)
Ship total: 38 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 3


Total: 199

But i still prefer the original list

Having Wedge instead of Luke means that the likelihood if ion hitting is bigger (considering Jake is there too) and it also means that any i5 ship that wants to take a shot cannot avoid being ionized. With Luke, on the other hand, the lock is that much more difficult to attain.

Also, i think that the meta has changed a lot from what it used to be. Instead of being 70% Empire aces, it's actually mostly efficiency and swarms, which the A's love to face. And to add that, 2 of the top 4 lists in the Galactic Championship were lists with 2/4ths of the list being a-wings (ofc they had prockets, which, btw, are a pretty good option for Jake here as well, but nonetheless still 2 lists featuring 4 a-wings) Moreover, if you do find ace lists, they will be pretty terrified of ion torpedo Wedge.

That should tell you that the roles in this list are very well defined: Wedge always goes after the biggest target, Heff carries Leia, has a big gun and provides blocks, Jake gives mods to Wedge and aces in swarm matchups, Arvel is a nuisance in general and an EXTRA nuisance in swarm matchups.