Since the Moshi Sun Sentinel doesn't have access to invocations from their techniques and instead gets access to fire invocations from their school's "curriculum", don't they lose the ability to learn any new invocations upon completion of the school? It seems like a major oversight if mastering a school all about a particular thing means you lose the ability to learn any more of the thing the school is about, but that's what seems to happen here. It's already weird that they don't get access to air invocations, despite those also being something the Moshi are supposed to be good at, but them also eventually losing access to fire invocations as well seems really bad, unless there's something I'm missing.

I don't think they're the only school in Celestial Realms with this issue either, they're just the one I'm most familiar with and that stood out to me most, both due to the Centipede being one of my favorite clans and the loss seeming particularly egregious.

On 11/6/2020 at 1:40 PM, Roland Jones said:

I don't think they're the only school in Celestial Realms with this issue either

Nor are they the first. The Kaito school in the core book is a monk-with-invocations rather than a shujenga per se, and was the first school in 5th edition to have invocations on the curriculum but not technique-class access to invocations as a whole.

And yes, you miss those invocations on the way up, you can't get them later through your school.

I'm assuming the Sun Sentinel is one of those schools (like the shrine keeper) that isn't exactly a shujenga?

You do loose the ability to learn new invocations at rank 6. However, I'd raise one important point: you're rank 6, in a school with a theology focus. That means you 'know' the entire Invocations chapter because at that point, importune invocations (performing an invocation you don't 'know') becomes kind of trivial. Also, if it really bugs you, the Priest title gives you access to importune invocations at a lower TN, and - whilst I don't have Celestial Realms so can't confirm this - it wouldn't surprise me if one or more titles existed in the book which would give you further access to invocations via a title curriculum.

I wasn't under impression that the pages 97-98 about character advancement said anything about not having access anymore to lower rank curriculum options?

The restrictions just speak about them being on your curriculum, the table doesn't speak about rank and I just assumed you still had access to lower ranks options even if you advanced

Have I missed something?

2 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

I wasn't under impression that the pages 97-98 about character advancement said anything about not having access anymore to lower rank curriculum options?

The restrictions just speak about them being on your curriculum, the table doesn't speak about rank and I just assumed you still had access to lower ranks options even if you advanced

Have I missed something?

Page 56 first paragraph and last entry in the table at the bottom of the page.

The thing is, you have to pay attention at the general techniques allowed to your school. So let’s say a school doesn’t grant access to kata but your school specifically gives you a rank 2 kata at school rank 1. If you don’t get it at rank 1, you can’t get it when you reach rank 2 anymore because your school doesn’t grant access to overall kata.

Ditto for title curricula - once you've 'spent up' and received the title ability, you can no longer buy anything that you got access to only via that title (Emerald Magistrate giving shujenga access to kata, for example)

8 hours ago, Diogo Salazar said:

Page 56 first paragraph and last entry in the table at the bottom of the page.

The thing is, you have to pay attention at the general techniques allowed to your school. So let’s say a school doesn’t grant access to kata but your school specifically gives you a rank 2 kata at school rank 1. If you don’t get it at rank 1, you can’t get it when you reach rank 2 anymore because your school doesn’t grant access to overall kata.

7 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Ditto for title curricula - once you've 'spent up' and received the title ability, you can no longer buy anything that you got access to only via that title (Emerald Magistrate giving shujenga access to kata, for example)

again, that might be me, but I can't see anything in what you quoted that says that completing a rank/career/title loses you the ability to select the curriculum lower rank or title options when spending xp

That's akin to saying that because you're a french cuisine master cook you can't learn a new burger recipe anymore. That's not logically sound anyway

It has repeatedly been confirmed to work that way because the curriculum of a rank only applies as long as you are working on that rank.

Afterwards, your curriculum changes, and doesn't include the privileged access entries anymore. Similarly, it's not like your curriculum keeps expanding, so that you can spend your XP on anything that's on your Rank 1-3 curriculum tables if you're trying to achieve Rank 4.

The only one that applies at any given time is one title and the rank you're working on. Think of it more like a uni: if you've not taken optional class X, you might not get the chance to pick it later.

5 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

again, that might be me, but I can't see anything in what you quoted that says that completing a rank/career/title loses you the ability to select the curriculum lower rank or title options when spending xp

FAQ , frequently asked questions, character advancement:

"Q: If a character has access to an advancement with the ♢ symbol that they could not normally purchase at a specific school rank or via a specific title, can they purchase it after completing that rank or title?

A: No. The special access to purchase that advancement does not persist once the rank is completed."

5 hours ago, MB -Fr- said:

That's akin to saying that because you're a french cuisine master cook you can't learn a new burger recipe anymore. That's not logically sound anyway

No. Because, to somewhat abuse the metaphor (sorry!), "recipes" techniques will almost certainly be one of the three technique classes associated with the school. So you can learn new recipes freely and have the skills to teach yourself - or develop them from scratch, as you would expect a skilled chef to be able do.

What you won't have access to is the ability to learn "electric ukulele & vuvuzela funk tune" techniques, because whilst you had a limited opportunity to learn them during your career, you (sensibly) chose not to, you are no longer in the specific dojo class which teaches them, and they're not close enough to your 'core competence' to teach yourself.

Learning them requires finding a situation where you have the potential to learn them, which is exactly what going and getting yourself the "Vuvuzela Player" title would do - give you a curriculum within which you can buy the techniques.

....I did say I was abusing the metaphor a bit.

I am also now picturing the Ikoma Vuvuzela Player School. The horror...

ah, missed that the issue had been adressed in the FAQ

still doesn't seem very logical to me, but offical answer accepted

I appreciate that no metaphor is perfect, but since this is the one we're running with...

The " electric ukulele & vuvuzela funk tune" class that this culinary institute offers doesn't consider the course any more an elective than any other course they offer. In fact, it's part of your fastest route to learning more advanced cooking techniques. I think that's part of why it seems strange that it isn't offered to master chefs when almost every other course is.

I thought it was fun to try out the idea of school curricula, if only because it's fun to explore new mechanics, but for what it's worth @MB -Fr- , I agree with you that they don't totally make sense. I think there might be some limited instances where there's a logical shift in theme. Something like, "We want all of our students to be soldiers, but the ones that excel, we train to be generals." But I'm skeptical that that kind of thinking motivates four shifts in each school's curriculum.

I'll use Shinjo Outrider as an example, just because it's what I'm playing now. I think in design they thought, "We want this class to be passionate socially and also emphasize mobility, so we'll give them all fire shuji, water-based kata, and some moderate water shuji access." When you look at what the class offers over the course of 5 or 6 ranks, it makes sense. But when you have to justify the shift between each rank, it starts to fall apart. In practice, the experience is a little like, "We want all of our students to have exposure to earth shuji (and specifically earth shuji) before giving them access to training in most basic kata, but once they're ready to start learning kata, we'll never teach them earth shuji again ." I think you'd be hard-pressed to justify most shifts in curriculum at each rank.

If you reach enough, you can probably find some justification for any mechanical limitation, but I think the tail ends up wagging the dog. Instead of telling whatever story you want to tell and having mechanics that support it, you're bending the narrative a bit to justify the mechanics you're stuck with. My experience so far is that this doesn't support the player experience, even when they're playing to type (like a Sun Sentinel wanting more fire invocations).

3 hours ago, MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving said:

In practice, the experience is a little like, "We want all of our students to have exposure to earth shuji (and specifically earth shuji) before giving them access to training in most basic kata, but once they're ready to start learning kata, we'll never teach them earth shuji again ."

Remember that Shinjo get the classic trio of Shuji, Kata and Rituals, and none of the preferential access techniques are more than one rank 'early'- you never lose access to buy a specific Earth Shuji once you have it, they just go from counting full value to count half value toward completing your current rank.

I agree it's not easy to follow the logic. Broadly it's the steady transition from a horse archer to a commander of cavalry - martial arts ranged and survival appear in some guise at nearly all ranks, but stuff like government appears increasingly as the rank goes up.

Technique choices are harder to explain, aside from take-pelting-hail-immediately because-its-ridiculous

3 hours ago, MonCalamariAgainstDrunkDriving said:

The " electric ukulele & vuvuzela funk tune" class that this culinary institute offers doesn't consider the course any more an elective than any other course they offer

Once again..... I'm sorry.