I have a good group, a smuggler, a hired gun, a bounty hunter and a colonist.

All is well and the characters are gelling well. However, the doctor has a couple of talents that seem to cause me issues. Stim Application is used with wild abandon, and trivialises challenges. How do other people handle this? I'd limit access to Stim Packs but that seems a little retributive.

Just now, Dazgrim said:

I have a good group, a smuggler, a hired gun, a bounty hunter and a colonist.

All is well and the characters are gelling well. However, the doctor has a couple of talents that seem to cause me issues. Stim Application is used with wild abandon, and trivialises challenges. How do other people handle this? I'd limit access to Stim Packs but that seems a little retributive.

That’s because it is. Atin packs already have a built in limiter: diminishing returns on repeated uses within any given day.

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That’s because it is. Atin packs already have a built in limiter: diminishing returns on repeated uses within any given day.

I'm afraid I didn't make myself clear. It's not the healing that I have an issue with.

Stim Application is a talent that boosts an ability of the Doctor's choice by 1. So for piloting challenges they pump the pilot full of drugs and they are now Agility 5. For computer challenges the doctor takes the drugs and is now Intelligence 5 and so on and so forth.

6 minutes ago, Dazgrim said:

Stim Application is a talent that boosts an ability of the Doctor's choice by 1. So for piloting challenges they pump the pilot full of drugs and they are now Agility 5. For computer challenges the doctor takes the drugs and is now Intelligence 5 and so on and so forth.

1) That is the idea! 2) Upping a stat by 1 is only adding a green die (in most cases), has it really been that impactful? 3) The PCs are supposed to be Heroes, and Heroes do, well, Heroic things.

Evidently I am finding it problematic, otherwise I wouldn't have raised the issue. Thanks for your less than helpful contribution, I feel enlightened and supported by your attitude.

1 hour ago, Dazgrim said:

Evidently I am finding it problematic, otherwise I wouldn't have raised the issue. Thanks for your less than helpful contribution, I feel enlightened and supported by your attitude.

I'm sorry you took my reply in that way, not intended.

Having said that, it would, perhaps, help to understand a little more specifically why you are finding it problematic. Clearly this additional stat/die will result in the PCs check succeeding more often than it would without it. In a close situation perhaps as much as half the time a failure would be turned into a success. It seems likely that this is what is bothering you, but I don't want to presume.

As for a way to handle it: 1) While the talent does not state so, you could rule that there is a, reasonable, need for something to use as a stimulant. You mention Stim Packs, but the Talent does not, it is silent on material needs, so it seems to me you could set your own. They could even be different for each stat to be enhanced. In the extreme example I don't think your players could really argue that if they were all naked in the desert that the Doctor could use this skill with nothing. 2) You could set a frequency beyond which there is a risk of addiction. Either a physical addiction, or mental where the subject craves being in that enhanced state. 3) As the Talent does require the Doctor to use an Action, you could also require that the subject take an Action. Not much impact for "scheduled" use, but a limit on doing so "in action".

That's all I have. I hope it helps.

Edit: I do see that the long description of the skill mentions Drugs, Medpack, or Stimpacks. Limit it to Drugs.

Cheers mate, sorry I was a little waspish.

My problem is more to do with balancing encounters. My players like to be challenged, however what is challenging when the doctor is present and what is challenging when he is not can be quite different.

I love the idea of the other PCs becoming addicted to the stimulation.

@Dazgrim

As GM, you are well within your rights to assign any Difficulty you see fit to give them a challenge.

But even "set" Difficulties, per RAW, Piloting a Silhouette 4 ship through an asteroid field at Speed 4 should be facing a RRPPKK check (Speed 4 = Difficulty 4, Silhouette 4÷2 = 2 Upgrades, with 2 Setbacks for a dense asteroid field). And if you flip a DP that becomes RRRPKK (although a Pilot is probably removing both Setbacks, so call it RRRP).

Any group should want the Doctor to pump up the Pilot in that situation.

Just take it into account. Make your players feel the need to have the Doctor stim them up. Having a player that chooses to be a Doctor means that they want to be a support character. Having everyone in the group want him to enhance them is a good thing. Builds teamwork.

And if the Doctor is using his Actions to give someone else an extra Ability die instead of using his Action to do something else, that is just fine.

But you have to make sure that they aren't just stimming everyone up outside of Initiative. The Doctor using his Action is part of the Talent's power level. Not every time, but in most cases it should be during Initiative.

Just remember: If your players are having fun, it shouldn't be an issue.

😁

I don't recall exactly, but doesn't the long form text of the talent state that this stim usage is counted as a character's use for the day? So, sure they get beefed up before an encounter, but they lose that 5 wound heal option. Healing 10 wounds per day vs 15 can be a pretty big deal.

2 hours ago, rogue_09 said:

I don't recall exactly, but doesn't the long form text of the talent state that this stim usage is counted as a character's use for the day? So, sure they get beefed up before an encounter, but they lose that 5 wound heal option. Healing 10 wounds per day vs 15 can be a pretty big deal.

That's a good idea, whether it's RAW or not.

It's perfectly reasonable to limit this to one increase to the stat active at a time. Getting juiced up on performance enhancers can only improve on what you already have by so much.

The problem is not the talent but the fact that you have min maxing players with 4 in their main sat that complaint that the game is too easy. Maybe it is the time to sit down and tell them to stop gaming the system if it's bother you that much.

Yeah, this seems to be a player issue rather than Stim Application being too powerful.

It may be a player problem, but it also may be a timing and urgency problem. There are costs associated with getting that extra die and you can control all of them:

• It costs some material (stimpack, drug, etc). Like casting materials for a wizard, sometimes they should be hard to find. As far as stimpacks go, maybe they aren't just available at the local SpaceWalmart. Maybe some governments or corporations monopolize them to control the population. Maybe some governments have outlawed or limited them because they are being used to make other things (like rubbing alcohol and bathtub meth). For medpacks, there probably should be a limit, or treat it like a heavy blaster and if they get 3T they have run out...this at least will give them pause.
• It costs an Action. If the players have enough time to do this, maybe there isn't enough pressure. Actions should be precious and come with decisions..."if I do this, then I can't do that". Ideally, the players will have more things to do than they can get to without either making uncomfortable decisions or spending precious resources. I get if they inject the pilot before a space run it's hard to control, but there's nothing stopping you from upping the challenge level in response...of course you don't telegraph this, instead congratulate them: "good thing you did that, because it looks like some of those asteroids are space-mines!"
• Every Action contains some risk, so don't be afraid to upgrade or add setback to the default PP difficulty. These things are harder to do when being shot at, on a ship in motion, etc.
• It costs Strain on the recipient. I don't know about you, but my PCs are usually running around with a strain hit anyway, because it's the default currency when I can't think of something narrative (1-2 Threat isn't enough to stop the game to ponder these things), plus I like having the increasing pressure of the day add up. The point is that 4 Strain cost should be enough to make them think twice about the impact on the recipient.

It does sound like you're making this resource (materials and time) much more available than it needs to be.

HappyDaze pointed out the broken issue regarding stimpaks so here's my solution:

First:

Stimpaks. Stimpaks are normally a one per day usage, and diminish after time with repeat usage.

The first stimpak will heal 5 wounds. Subsequent doses on the same day will only heal 1 wound.

Stimpaks reduce efficacy if used day after day and will reduce the their effectiveness by 1 wound per days. So on day 1 a first stimpak will heal five wound, on day 2 the first application (that day) will only heal four wounds. Day three heals only three wounds, etc.

On each subsequent application of a stimpak on the same day, characters must take a easy ( d ) Discipline or Resilience check (whichever is better) plus setback die ( b ) equal to the number of stimpaks taken (so far). Any character taking only 1 stimpak (per day) will not take addiction checks. A character taking two stimpaks per on a day will roll d bb for their first addiction check.

On this addition check each “failure” represents how hard it is to break the addiction and the “threats” represent the intensity of the addition or how many setback die a character suffers, without “dosing up” until the addiction is beaten.

Second:

I didn't include my addiction rules here, but I also made Stimpaks addictive substances (see also above). Used once a day, no problems. But if you start popping them like pills then your character can face an addition. Once addicted you start getting tossed BLACK dice for EVERYTHING until the addiction is lifted.

My players don't abuse stims.

One player made the 'mistake' of taking the 'alcoholic' obligation and it's a sore point (for that player). There are consequences for getting addicted!

And the players realize that getting hooked on stims will be just as onerous. (Actually it looks like it will be more onerous looking at the consequences).

That is a solution, certainly.

Please don't misconstrue what I am about to say, as I am a firm believer in "your game, your rules". Having said that, it seems to me that there is a group that feels that the RAW provide to much benefit to the PCs and/or makes the PCs too strong, not challenged enough, however you want to phrase it. I wonder if the GMs that feel this way may have an unrealistic expectation (based on RAW) of the amount of challenge that a situation (be it a squad of Stormtroopers, or successfully navigating an asteroid field) is expected to generate? Sure, there is always more than one way to skin the cat. I'm sure it is likely that I am biased towards my method, which is to add more challenge, not to reduce the power of the PCs. When I see a post that is, essentially, saying "never use more than one stimpack a day" (as you will fail that roll at some point), it makes me wonder why? What is so terrible about Stimpacks as written? Or the Doctor? In another 100xp the character can Dedication that primary stat up, so how is the Doctor so destabilizing? There is a viewpoint there that I have a hard time understanding. It is not your responsibility to explain it to me, but I'd like to understand.

40 minutes ago, RickInVA said:

What is so terrible about Stimpacks as written? Or the Doctor? In another 100xp the character can Dedication that primary stat up, so how is the Doctor so destabilizing? There is a viewpoint there that I have a hard time understanding. It is not your responsibility to explain it to me, but I'd like to understand.

With stimpacks, it's free health (well, dirt cheap anyway). That can make it difficult to scare PCs with something that isn't a TPK threat. I don't have much of a problem with stimpacks, but that's why some object.

The thing about bumping the stat up with Dedication is that the Doctor can now simply boost it one more point, to 6 now instead of 5.

I think it's basically a matter of wanting more control over the PCs situation and the challenge level, preventing them from skewing it in ways you weren't expecting. The thing is, if you bank on Stim Application when setting difficulty, then if the PCs don't have it available it may suddenly be too hard. If you don't artificially increase the difficulty and they do use Stim Application, now it's easier than you wanted.

I don't have a problem with the RAW in any of these cases, but I can understand how it might be abused or become a headache for the GM.

On 11/5/2020 at 1:05 PM, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

I think it's basically a matter of wanting more control over the PCs situation and the challenge level, preventing them from skewing it in ways you weren't expecting. The thing is, if you bank on Stim Application when setting difficulty, then if the PCs don't have it available it may suddenly be too hard. If you don't artificially increase the difficulty and they do use Stim Application, now it's easier than you wanted.

I don't have a problem with the RAW in any of these cases, but I can understand how it might be abused or become a headache for the GM.

This is pretty much my issue.

I'm not going to prevent the Doctor using his abilities, and he's enjoying himself as are the other players. And I don't believe in bad/wrong fun.

Every so often I like to pinch an encounter or NPC from one of the published adventures, in these situations a couple of stimmed up characters with stats of 5/6 can trivialise the whole thing. I'm not great at on the fly patch jobs, just adding additional black dice seems arbitrary.

5 minutes ago, Dazgrim said:

And I don't believe in bad/wrong fun.

Well... That depends heavily on context.

Master Bountyhunter with 2 or 3 Journeyman Bounty Hunters as backup are your friend, armed with stun, smoke, flash grenades, glop guns, net guns and long range stun rounds out of one of the Career splats (they can't kill who they can't see) etc etc.... surely the PCs have p***ed off enough people to be bought in for questioning or paying off their debt in gladiatorial combat for a month or two

On 11/8/2020 at 10:46 PM, Dazgrim said:

And I don't believe in bad/wrong fun.

Oh, it's out there, and hopefully you'll know it when you see it. It's really for the best to have a safeword ready, just in case...

I take your point. In those cases Ifind the best safe word is No.

And remember, if it's available to the Player Characters...

😈

Have them face straight edge bad guys that not only become enraged with Adversary 1 when Stim Application is used, but it draws instant aggro to the Doctor.

Embrace the dark side.

Well, if they think themselves invincible, then throwing greater challenges against them seems like the thing to do. Pride comes before the fall, as the saying goes.

Nothing some thermal detonator or other Blast type dangers couldn't solve. Maybe a volcano planet needs to be visited and requires a lot of Hard+ Survival checks from the group.