13 minutes ago, Vykk Draygo said:

Trouble would be putting it mildly. The owner of my FLGS is my best friend, we first met almost three decades ago when he worked at my shop. Dealing with these distribution issues is the absolute worst experience either of us have ever experienced in the business, and if anyone has inside info on distributors to run an LGS that’s really saying something.

There was a stretch where the Warhammer folks were not spoke of well. The situation for FFG stuff has surpassed that. The Warhammer folks and the folks making all those little D&D miniatures seem to be okay at the moment. Everyone else including MtG are a pain in his backside.

45 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

There was a stretch where the Warhammer folks were not spoke of well. The situation for FFG stuff has surpassed that. The Warhammer folks and the folks making all those little D&D miniatures seem to be okay at the moment. Everyone else including MtG are a pain in his backside.

At least FFG still sends stuff to FLGS at all. Knight Models kinda just stopped near the start of the year/end of last year lol

On 11/3/2020 at 9:09 AM, All Shields Forward said:

Buying out of faction has been the norm since the start of the game's life so I feel nothing. It's always been that way.

It has. But there are many more factions now, and the chances of players needing to buy out of faction has increased. (Unless they buy ALL THE THINGS)

On 10/30/2020 at 6:02 PM, GreenDragoon said:

I'm 100% fine with it.

It is only relevant for competitive play, everyone else can proxy without any problem whatsoever.

It is completely impossible to make every card immediately available for every faction. I hope we can all agree on that, so we are just arguing about the length of the delay.

Of course the shorter the better, and of course I would love to get more card packs.

But buying something for $20-50 I might use less often for something I really need to compete at an event where the plane ticket is $400, the hotel is another $200, and the food, transport etc will add another $200 seems entirely ok.

As usual, nail was hit on the head in the first page of the thread.

But just to comment a little further on the bolded, I don't think it's impossible to make every card immediately available to every faction.

Thus far, Armada has been really good about including all new generic upgrade cards in a wave in at least one ship per faction per wave. Usually, you can stick to one faction and get all the new content that might apply to your faction. But of course, this is far, far easier when you're only dealing with two factions.

X-Wing makes this harder , certainly. But not outright impossible. A theoretical release model of 7 ships per wave with a ship per faction would make it doable. The only real barrier is that Rebels, Imperials and to a certain extent Scum have no content out there worth releasing.

That said, I'm not expecting anything to change on that front so you're right the only sticking point left is the length of the delay.

For what it's worth, I'm not at all mad about not having an in-faction route to new cards. But I'm not exactly happy with it either. The biggest problem for me is that space, of all things, has become a bit of a premium. I have most of the Rebel and Imperial content, a good chunk of Scum and a decent amount of Republic. This is on top of my Armada content. Any expansion I now buy on top of that would require additional investment just to store it, and I'd have to find somewhere else in the cupboard to stuff it. I'll always consider Rebel and Imperial content, but buying Resistance, FO, Sep or even certain Republic ships just for cards really isn't appealing.

Card packs are the obvious solution, and I'm sure one is coming eventually. I guess I'd just like them to be a little bit more regular.

Even if the card packs were an annual thing, we'd be overdue an announcement at this point. Hotshots and Aces came out in Jan. Next Jan is only two months away.

I think length of delay is the big sticking point, and I feel justified in arguing that for most people the delay in certain factions getting new cards is too long.

A question to the rest of the thread: how would people feel about 'alternate editions' of existing ships as standalone releases? I'm thinking like the Chimaera expansion in Armada - same ship model, but different paint scheme and all new cards. It's an area FFG have also just trod near to with the the Sep Firespray. Everyone seems fine with the Squadron Pack repaint model, and everyone mostly agrees that not having to rebuy existing ships to get new content was a good move. But what constitutes an existing ship? Is it the physical model, the statline on the ship card? Would a straight up single re-release of a ship that's already been released in 2e only with all new pilots and a new paint scheme with a bunch of new upgrades bother people?

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

A question to the rest of the thread: how would people feel about 'alternate editions' of existing ships as standalone releases? I'm thinking like the Chimaera expansion in Armada - same ship model, but different paint scheme and all new cards. It's an area FFG have also just trod near to with the the Sep Firespray. Everyone seems fine with the Squadron Pack repaint model, and everyone mostly agrees that not having to rebuy existing ships to get new content was a good move. But what constitutes an existing ship? Is it the physical model, the statline on the ship card? Would a straight up single re-release of a ship that's already been released in 2e only with all new pilots and a new paint scheme with a bunch of new upgrades bother people?

As with everything with ffg releases, some people will be ok with it, and others will cry bloody murder over it.

I’ve seen some folks salty about Heralds of Hope. I’ve seen some folks enthusiastic about it.

I’m mostly ok with repaints with new content. I just have no desire to buy the reprinted to 2.0 ships that have no or minimal difference between their 1.0 counterparts. I’ve not bought any of the reprinted ties (for either faction with ties), nor things like the scum Firespray or t65.

@GuacCousteau

Conceptually, I think I would be ok with new alternate packs for existing ships. It would basically be a mini ace pack, in my mind. Put some good cards and an alt paint job, and you have my interest.

To add on to this question, how would people feel if we got one of these alternate packs before a rerelease pack? We don’t have a 2.0 Resistance Falcon. Would it be okay to release an alt pack based on Rise of Skywalker, with a new dish, Poe and Lando as pilots, and some new upgrades?

@SabineKey

I feel like if ffg is ever to sell reprint again after how they got burned with reprints (admittedly sub optimal choices by the result is the same), it would HAVE to be with some alternatives baked inside it.

I could see redoing the falcon with the old pilots and some new ones. I may even be tempted to do it despite having both 1.0 falcons and the scum falcon. Then again if they charge $50 for it instead of the 40, I’d be really salty. Seeing the price hike on HoH was a bit depressing

31 minutes ago, ScummyRebel said:

I feel like if ffg is ever to sell reprint again after how they got burned with reprints (admittedly sub optimal choices by the result is the same), it would HAVE to be with some alternatives baked inside it.

Something I don't get about this.... they presumably have to do reprints of everything at some point, right?

Imagine if 2e had never been a thing. Eventually all the 1e ships would have, in turn, run out of stock and been reprinted. It had multiple times to the wave 1 ships, for example.

Why can't FFG just run these re-releases as reprints? Not give them the full release fanfare, not count them as part of new waves. Just reprint the models in 2e packaging with the 2e cards they've already printed. If the problem is they're not selling as well, then why not just release in more limited runs as they would have with reprints?

That way, ships that have genuinely become difficult to find like the E-Wing, TIE Phantom, Assault Gunboat, Star Viper and Aggressor can be re-released and 2e only players can pick them up without having to scour second hand or expensive 1e versions. Plus any 1e veterans who didn't pick up enough Gunboats in the very limited time they were available (*cough* me *cough*) can finally pick up a second. But FFG aren't losing out because they're not targeting the kind of sales figures they would for a new wave, they're just restocking out of stock content.

11 hours ago, Koing907 said:

It has. But there are many more factions now, and the chances of players needing to buy out of faction has increased. (Unless they buy ALL THE THINGS)

I guess I just don't see this as a "faction" driven game like 40k or Warmachine. I see it more closer to collectable games and I think for FFG to remain profitable with it, it needs to be.

15 hours ago, All Shields Forward said:

I guess I just don't see this as a "faction" driven game like 40k or Warmachine. I see it more closer to collectable games and I think for FFG to remain profitable with it, it needs to be.

I made the mental shift after the switch to 2.0. I think X-Wing used to be closer to a collectible game, but the additional factions makes it harder to buy all they things.
I avoid collectible games. I indulged in the Transformers CCG, but only when I had the extra cash. Going more "collectible" is one of my bail-out criteria for 2.0. They haven't hit it just yet.

Interesting where this discussion is going.

Just some additional things to consider. Collectible games can be challenging for your FLGS, the industry has decades of experience with this.

Collectible games with a smaller amount of SKUs (unique sellable products) are generally manageable. This has historically been games like Magic or Pokemon with boosters etc. Collectible games often have a higher requirement to carry most/all of the products or SKUs in order to cater to the sales audience. Interestingly, as of late Hasbro has really increased the amount of Magic products getting released (more SKUs), and you're hearing more pain and stuggles from FLGS.

This gets me to my second point, games with a lot of SKUs, can be very challenging for small FLGS (and even larger ones). This was the historic problem with Games Workshop, back in the 90s they made stores buy a ton of products to carry any of their items. What generally happens is that a store sells some of that product, but struggles to sell most of it and take a big loss. If you're old enough to remember, the late 90s and early 2000s had a lot of small FLGS stuck with unsellable product gathering dust on the shelf. Unless a store was large enough, and had a large enough audience, it simply couldn't be profitable.

Another small point, people who haven't studied this often miss. This model eventually hurt Games Workshop as well. They had temporarily boosted sales/profits by forcing small FLGS to buy a lot of their product. But as it went unsold, with the rise of the internet and EBay, it flooded the secondary market with cheap GW miniatures. That in turn hurt GW sales for quite some time, pushing their own stores sales down. How many people have heard "Don't buy GW miniatures at full price, get them on eBay"?

X-Wing has a lot of SKUs, so part of me just wonders are we relearning what we've witnessed before?

4 minutes ago, CountBlah said:

... you're hearing more pain and stuggles from FLGS.

All of the above; so much. My daughter, who was until fairly recently co-owner of a small town FLGS, had endless heartburn with this issue, and not just trying to keep enough MtG in stock to be an attractive destination. Small stores get reamed left and right by how the manufacturers treat them.

To clarify, I don't mean blind package collectable.

Think about something like the Slave 1 for CIS. FFG has to look at how many they could sell to justify putting it into production. It's a large model and not only takes up shelf space at a shop but is more expensive than other ships. It's also not something you'd swarm in the game. Most people are only going to buy one for the cards in it. If the game was geared towards factions than an even smaller pool of people would be buying it.

For none swarm ships to sell well, FFG banks on people not currently playing that faction to pick one or two up just to have/get the cards with it.

3 minutes ago, All Shields Forward said:

Think about something like the Slave 1 for CIS. ... If the game was geared towards factions than an even smaller pool of people would be buying it.

For my part, I have zero interest in CIS and was planning a hard pass on this expansion. It's only because of the heavy Scum playability they included in the cards that I decided to pre-order one.

On 11/6/2020 at 4:08 PM, Spinland said:

For my part, I have zero interest in CIS and was planning a hard pass on this expansion. It's only because of the heavy Scum playability they included in the cards that I decided to pre-order one.

How would you feel if the ship was given the Falcon treatment and wasn't playable in scum, though? Unless of course you already own multiple Firesprays.

I think the fact the plastic itself is 'dual faction' even if you already need either a CC or a Firespray in scum to technically use it does a lot. Honestly feels more fair than HoH style squad packs, weirdly, due to minimizing the amount of plastic in the release.

5 hours ago, dezzmont said:

How would you feel if the ship was given the Falcon treatment...

...either a CC or a Firespray...

I confess I don't understand what "the Falcon treatment" or "CC" mean...?

I did already buy a used Firespray model and a Scum Conversion Kit and, though I'm not really thinking a lot about dual Firespray lists, the idea doesn't turn me off; that helped me decide to pre-order.

Answer OP question: I was okay until my Brute only had 1 SLC.... common FFG it’s $35!

3 hours ago, Spinland said:

I confess I don't understand what "the Falcon treatment" or "CC" mean...?

I did already buy a used Firespray model and a Scum Conversion Kit and, though I'm not really thinking a lot about dual Firespray lists, the idea doesn't turn me off; that helped me decide to pre-order.

CC in this context means Conversion Kit I think and the Falcon treatment is the YT-1300 is a different ship stat wise and name wise in each faction it is part of.

Just wait until the next card pack, or a ship in your faction with the upgrade.

At no point did they say everything would be available immediately.

2 hours ago, Porkchop Express said:

Just wait until the next card pack, or a ship in your faction with the upgrade.

Both of which are way easier to do if you know a ship is coming in your faction, or if a card park has been announced.

For Rebels and to a lesser extent Imperials (they've had the TIE Heavy, but now that it's out....), there is essentially nothing on the horizon in which you might be able to get new upgrade cards while buying in-faction.

That's..... kinda the whole crux of this discussion.

Timely announcements of card parks would eliminate like 90% of people's issues with 'buying out of faction'.

Without that knowledge, telling people to 'just wait' is super unhelpful.

1 hour ago, GuacCousteau said:

Timely announcements of card parks would eliminate like 90% of people's issues with 'buying out of faction'.

What do you consider timely? I think that’s the bigger issue.

I’m on the fence personally - on one hand I think they need to have enough cards to be worth a card pack and they finally got there once this new wave hits. I could easily see there being a card pack announcement with the new wave news.

On the other hand, I feel like the original factions need content more frequently than they have had it. The reprints were an issue because new players needed them but old players didn’t, though I did jump on the rz1 for paint scheme and bwing for flappy wings. I have yet to buy any imperial reprint because it’s the same scheme.

Then again, those ace packs may bring some relief for the rebels and empire. Just have to wait and see - though with how often ffg has multiple waves of content known and we don’t have that now, would not surprise me to see info coming within a month about the next wave.

22 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

What do you consider timely? I think that’s the bigger issue.

I’m on the fence personally - on one hand I think they need to have enough cards to be worth a card pack and they finally got there once this new wave hits. I could easily see there being a card pack announcement with the new wave news.

On the other hand, I feel like the original factions need content more frequently than they have had it. The reprints were an issue because new players needed them but old players didn’t, though I did jump on the rz1 for paint scheme and bwing for flappy wings. I have yet to buy any imperial reprint because it’s the same scheme.

Then again, those ace packs may bring some relief for the rebels and empire. Just have to wait and see - though with how often ffg has multiple waves of content known and we don’t have that now, would not surprise me to see info coming within a month about the next wave.

Wishy washy answer:

I'd say 'timely' would be a release shortly (say a quarter?) after a sufficient amount of new content has been released since the last card pack.

So you get to a volume of new upgrade cards that fits the size you want for a card pack and then release that card pack in the next wave. Maybe 15-25 new upgrades, with multiples of some?

More concrete answer:

I think annually makes sense to me. In theory that's three or four waves worth of content. Given the current rate of new content per wave (which seems to have been accelerating, though it may have hit a peak at this point), that seems to provide a decent amount of new content to make a pack worth it (don't forget card packs can also come with brand new content all of their own, like new pilots). And I don't think most players would object to knowing they only have to wait <1year to get content without having to buy out of faction.

The problem with both of those answers, and the reason I think this discussion has resurfaced, is that we're already past that point for either option.

We should have already had the Hotshots and Aces sequel pack announced for a January release. I think the lack of such an announcement is why people are starting to feel a little impatient.

There's been a ton of new content released over the last few waves, and it's been over a year now since Hotshots and Aces was announced. The lack of information about in-faction options for new content is probably worse than the lack of options themselves.

24 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Wishy washy answer:

I'd say 'timely' would be a release shortly (say a quarter?) after a sufficient amount of new content has been released since the last card pack.

So you get to a volume of new upgrade cards that fits the size you want for a card pack and then release that card pack in the next wave. Maybe 15-25 new upgrades, with multiples of some?

More concrete answer:

I think annually makes sense to me. In theory that's three or four waves worth of content. Given the current rate of new content per wave (which seems to have been accelerating, though it may have hit a peak at this point), that seems to provide a decent amount of new content to make a pack worth it (don't forget card packs can also come with brand new content all of their own, like new pilots). And I don't think most players would object to knowing they only have to wait <1year to get content without having to buy out of faction.

The problem with both of those answers, and the reason I think this discussion has resurfaced, is that we're already past that point for either option.

We should have already had the Hotshots and Aces sequel pack announced for a January release. I think the lack of such an announcement is why people are starting to feel a little impatient.

There's been a ton of new content released over the last few waves, and it's been over a year now since Hotshots and Aces was announced. The lack of information about in-faction options for new content is probably worse than the lack of options themselves.

Although I agree with that annually card park would be a good option. We also should not forget that we Covid19 delaying everything. Not only productions and shipping, but I assume designing and testing stuff all from home and apart from eachother also takes more time. So let's be content if we get a card pack announced in the near future and hope that under more normal circumstances we do get them spot on every year

48 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

There's been a ton of new content released over the last few waves, and it's been over a year now since Hotshots and Aces was announced. The lack of information about in-faction options for new content is probably worse than the lack of options themselves.

I can see this entirely. My thinking is we should try to be patient until the new wave drops at the end of the month - ffg has never had a time in the life of Xwing 2.0 where we didn’t know about new products that were forthcoming and by the end of this month that will happen without news.

Ergo, I expect news within the next two weeks. We can hope for what we want to hear, but we should be hearing something.

(then again Asmodee has preorders up for legion expansions that still don’t have any announcement article or information beyond hey look what we can buy, so who knows)