4 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

It’s odd to see people bashing Resistance for chassis variety when they’re a faction where EVERY SINGLE SHIP is good.

Rey’s Falcon, Vennie, Finn & Rose pods, Cova, Kaz and the generic Fireball... if all you’re running is T-70s and A-Wings you’re doing Resistance wrong.

Most of the resistance ships are good , but not many of them are great.

Rey is finally there now she's had enough points decreases and A-Wings are clearly the best ships in the faction. T-70s are.. meh, for the points they pay. The transport is rubbish outside of Cova (who has one build) and I've yet to be convinced by the fireball (although I so want it to work). It's not that the ships can't be run, but to compete with the best lists you are limited (as are most factions to be fair).

I continue to find resistance in a funny spot points-wise, where nothing quite matches up. That's why the A=-wing are so popular, their points let them slot into almost any build, and the five with a selection of varieties combines good points with the best chassis in the faction.

2 hours ago, Stryker359 said:

Or they're playing what they enjoy and are disappointed that in order to be competitive, they need to fly things they dislike?

No?

3 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

No?

On 10/31/2020 at 2:35 PM, Ryuneke said:

Played my first game with it and did a short batrep .

It's nice to see some actual play with Poe and seems like OT is giving him the options he needs to actually arc dodge.

1 hour ago, The Penguin UK said:

Well yes and actually yes.

If a player insists on only being "competitive," then large parts of the game are no longer accessible. That's the corner they have painted themselves into, and it is unfair to the rest of the player base for those players to expect FFG to cater to them exclusively. The Republic hyper ring is a perfect example, and I think XWM is finally going to begin seeing more of these elements.

To wit, competitive racers don't piss and moan they can't drive a VW Bug convertible because it's thier favorite set of wheels, nor do they expect the sport of racing to change to accommodate thier whim.

Also, instead of focusing on HoH points, maybe folks could think about the point of HoH.

As the game moves into many factions, and the core set becomes increasingly outdated as a point of entry for new players, HoH perfectly encapsulates the ideal entry point into the Resistance faction.

It features the best ship of the faction, supported by a pair of the most iconic ships of the faction. It is a no-brainer recommendation for a player jumping straight into the Resistance faction. Which, IMHO (and likely FFG's strategy), is exactly why it should exist as-is (for example, including a new Poe and Temmin).

In fact, HoH makes me wonder what the Rebel, Imperial, Scum, and FO squadron packs should look like.

Heralds of Hope costs as much as buying an RZ2 and two T-70s, and is worse value on the table as it's got worse pilots and upgrade cards than just buying the 3 expansion packs instead. I struggle to see how it's a no-brainer. It's more like the last thing a Resistance newbie should buy.

3 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Heralds of Hope costs as much as buying an RZ2 and two T-70s, and is worse value on the table as it's got worse pilots and upgrade cards than just buying the 3 expansion packs instead. I struggle to see how it's a no-brainer. It's more like the last thing a Resistance newbie should buy.

T70s and RZ2s each cost $19.95 and you get 2 T70s and 1 RZ2 with neat paint jobs. Total cost of pack is $49.95 meaning you saved $10 dollars, basically a "buy 2 get 1 half off" deal. Plus this is totally what you should get for a new player, definitely not the "last" thing you get for them. There's such a small percentage of new players that care super hard about competitive level that I don't think it matters how "good" stuff is in HoH. Which it's currently comical to decide already what's definitely good and what's definitely bad. We all have our ideas, but the packs just came out so it doesn't matter currently.

8 hours ago, Tyhar7 said:

It's nice to see some actual play with Poe and seems like OT is giving him the options he needs to actually arc dodge.

Many of the best/classic aces in X-Wing have unique and fun playstyles. Fenn fights to stay at range 1, Guri and Whisper have weird prepositions, and Soontir + CLT Jedi revolve around the bullseye. Poe's maneuverability and flexibility with OT and his ability make him move like no other ship in the game. It also feels extremely thematic.

Poe does a great job of being juicy bait while threatening double modded offense if left alone. I think that if you're already spending the points to upgrade a T-70 to Poe (especially when BB blues are solid at 43), you're playing it cheap and possibly plain wrong if you don't splurge for Overdrive Thrusters.

Meanwhile he's still probably a few points too expensive. Unlike many other truly great aces, Poe has no built-in passive mods like force, rerolls, or conditional free evades, so he's extremely vulnerable to blocking. All it takes is one block and he's basically gone. Overdrive Thrusters are so much fun though, looking forward to getting table time with Poe.

On 10/30/2020 at 4:30 PM, KCDodger said:

I'm so F***ING SICK of RZ-2 A-Wings...

Hey, could you not do that?

a) RZ2s are demonstrably just another midfield list.

b) It sucks for everyone who really likes them to have their opponents roll their eyes every time and devalue the fun.

8 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well yes and actually yes.

If a player insists on only being "competitive," then large parts of the game are no longer accessible. That's the corner they have painted themselves into, and it is unfair to the rest of the player base for those players to expect FFG to cater to them exclusively. The Republic hyper ring is a perfect example, and I think XWM is finally going to begin seeing more of these elements.

To wit, competitive racers don't piss and moan they can't drive a VW Bug convertible because it's thier favorite set of wheels, nor do they expect the sport of racing to change to accommodate thier whim.

I'm not really taking sides in this debate, I was just laughing at the pathetic responses...

However - 1) As a two player game, people can't fly something something they find fun and interesting if they'll get smashed off the table every time. I want to fly Poe, and do, but he's just not good and even semi-good lists can take him down without too much trouble.

2) Competitive racers are just that - competitive. They cold probably find a competitive VW Bug racing circuit if they wanted to but they need everyone else to do that as well.

37 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hey, could you not do that?

a) RZ2s are demonstrably just another midfield list.

b) It sucks for everyone who really likes them to have their opponents roll their eyes every time and devalue the fun.

...Okay that's fair. Let me reiterate. I'm really tired of them being my only really good and reliable Resistance option.

10 minutes ago, KCDodger said:

...Okay that's fair. Let me reiterate. I'm really tired of them being my only really good and reliable Resistance option.

Thanks

Depends what you like to play, but rz2s most certainly aren't the only reliable resistance option!

You can play Rey with 2A, sure. But you can also slot in a fireball and 1X, or directly 2X. Those are decent.

Then there are the jousting lists, 4-5 ships and a mix of 3-4 xwings and 1-2 pods. Some like to again swap in a fireball.

Then there are cool lists with Vennie, including a Rey Vennie build.

There are arguably 2 lists in extended where awings are good: Rey AA and Rey AAA. All the other lists that are still decent avoid them.

11 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Lots of stuff

Most casual players are probably not looking for their lists to be 'top of the line.'

However, X-wing, especially over the last year, focuses a lot on linear, comparable power. This means that some lists aren't just subjectively better than others, but objectively better, as there isn't a lot of room to 'make up value.' The current waves seem to be working pretty hard on making intangible non-linear power a thing, so that might solve a lot of problems, but ultimately the number of lists that can be upper tier in X-wing is pretty low.

This isn't that bad a deal, I mean many loved games have small upper tiers. The issue, however, is that the gap between upper and lower tier lists is extremely wide , and most loved games don't have this quality, especially games where you need to identify strongly with a particular 'category' such as character or faction in order to obtain mastery. X-wing top 20 lists tend to have a lot of repeats and extreme disparities in play and cut rates. For example, from January to July really only had 8unique lists in the top 20, as 4 were some variation on 'Boba and a friend,' 4 were a vulture droid swarm list, and 2 were generic X-wing spam lists, and two were fang spam lists. Of those lists, the Boba lists made up 400 of the played lists in the top 20 out of 1,300, meaning he was almost a third of the meta and even individual variants on Boba were more than double the next highest list type in playrate. Outside of the top 15, you mostly had lists that were only played 20 times in that half year span. If you were not in that top 20 slot, you basically didn't place anywhere, and most of the lists in the bottom 10 of the top 20 only were there because they got lucky, won one tournament, and got experimented with and were found to have just gotten lucky.

Resistance sometimes gets a list in the tip 5, but if entire highly thematic categories of resistance lists can't even get close, especially their most iconic pilot, it sorta doesn't matter, especially in this context of 'The best lists are comically good.'

So I think a lot of these complaints aren't 'Poe isn't competitive' but 'Poe struggles to even be viable.' Because most of the entire game of X-wing is non-viable. One can say 'people are just refusing to experiment' but they... kinda are willing too? Its just that its very clear most experiments fail in the environment of X-wing, which is kinda a huge bummer if you like Poe.

On 11/1/2020 at 2:27 PM, Stryker359 said:

Or they're playing what they enjoy and are disappointed that in order to be competitive, they need to fly things they dislike?

Pretty much what this person said.

I have been playing Resistance since it came out in November 2018 and I do define myself as a competitive player (nothing wrong with casual people flying non-meta list, I just enjoy more the competitive side of the game and my comments are made with that in mind)

I have always liked flying Poe and I have tried to make a list around him for all the different tournaments I was attending, reaching top 32 in Worlds last year with a Poe, Nien and L'ulo list.

Had plenty of success with Poe +3 A-wings when it came out, but had to find some other solutions after a while.

Lately I have been mostly playing Rey +3 A-wings on extended and Poe, Kaz, Talli and Zizi on hyper (until Corona times that is).

Over the last 2 years, we have seen many products come out and bring new available options for the faction, however the most successful ship, release after release, keeps being the Rz2 A-wing. It is painful to see the Transport, the Pod and the Fireball gather dust on my shelves (Yes, they had some success, like Finn in the Pod when at the beginning it was busted, but they all fail to be seen in the big tables, in my opinion by some bad design choices, like with the non Cova transport pilots).
We currently have 13 different named T-70 pilots (Counting both Poe as a different one) and (before the new ones were released) none of them was played at a competitive play whatsoever.

My main complaint comes from the fact that I would like to avoid flying 5 A-wings, since it is not something that I enjoy personally, but whatever I try, I am reminded that I should fly them instead (And thanks god that Rey came down, what is it now?, 15/20 points since her release, to a point that she is finally a good option).

I just wish that they would point fairly some of the existing options, so that there would be more competitive options to choose from (Poe costing 25 points more than the lowest Initiative pilot on the same chassis is just insane, other such pilots with big jumps are Anakin with 25, Luke with 23, Vader with 31, Soontir with 23, Boba with 24 or Kylo with 28, all of which have either Force tokens, like the Jedi; a possibility of triple action with 2 reposition, like Soontir; or a broken pilot ability like Boba).

-----------------------------------

I was testing the other day a few of the new cards.

Overall I was quite impressed with Merl, I guess the best option for him will be Automated Target Priority. He seems to scare away the opponents and soak plenty of attacks, so I don't think he'll end up with a focus in order to use it offensively.

Automated Target Priority looked quite useful, for 1 point I may see it going into some cheap ships to help them double mod in some instances.

I am not convinced with Starbird Slash, opponents normally expect when you are about to jump over them and plan ahead. Also, it seems that the only way to make the card work is to have multiples on the list, only 1 or 2 seem to be inefficient.

Underslung Blaster Cannon is underwhelming (and I think that I'm giving it too good of a review with that word), I really don't know if I would even pay 1 point for it. The ability seems to be built for a low pilot skill, but the requirement of a Lock makes it really hard to even trigger. Not only that, but choosing to get a lock instead of a focus means that you will be, most likely, initiative killed.

Overdrive Thrusters seem to be good for Poe to avoid danger, the issue is that you end up having so many points on Poe (had R4, Heroic, Title and Overdrive Thrusters) that he has a big target over his head. Had to spend most of the game just avoiding being murdered by multiple ships at the same time, instead of actually shooting.

Poe with Overdrive Thrusters is good and makes him a great ace, but he's also one of the only "aces" without easy access to passive mods/basically ignoring bumps. He's great for what he is, should just be way less than 12 points more expensive from the previous T70 pilots (Nien/ello). Why take a kitted-out Poe when you can have 2 really solid ships (BB blues or heroic/optics A wing aces)?

Also Resistance list tetris definitely builds around the 40-50 point mark, so a ~70 point ship doesn't really fit in well unless you fly pure aces (like Danger Zone).

You really should fly 5A as they’re not good and haven’t been for 12 months. Time to get a new idea.

5A is a solid "it can get you to the cut" list, but once you are at the cut, something is probably going to kick your butt. Sort of like Wookiees right now, I can see them fighting their way into cuts, but climbing to the top 2 seems unlikely.

5 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

You really should fly 5A as they’re not good and haven’t been for 12 months. Time to get a new idea.

5A hasn't been strong since Wave 3. I won't say it isn't good as you say, but the dream definitely finally died at Worlds 2019.

8 hours ago, The Penguin UK said:

I want to fly Poe, and do, but he's just not good and even semi-good lists can take him down without too much trouble.

6 hours ago, dezzmont said:

However, X-wing, especially over the last year, focuses a lot on linear, comparable power. This means that some lists aren't just subjectively better than others, but objectively better,

The issue, however, is that the gap between upper and lower tier lists is extremely wide , and most loved games don't have this quality,

Because most of the entire game of X-wing is non-viable.

Heh.

Well, if we are back here after just 2 years with an entire reboot of the game plus a handful of releases, I'd say that main failure is that XWM does not work as a competitive game, and never will.

At least not in the way that people demand--every component is viable all the time.

Quote

For example, from January to July really only had 8 unique lists in the top 20

And, IHMO, judging an entire game by what is in the 8 best lists is just silly anyways.

Tennis doesn't suck because the same handful of people make Wimbledon year-after-year.

14 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

You really should fly 5A as they’re not good and haven’t been for 12 months. Time to get a new idea.

I disagree but whatever. They put in a good showing at the UK system open.

I'd also argue that they remain a good choice as a competative Resistance list. Better out of faction options sure, but good as resistance.

Thirdly, I've found them a good cookie cutter list. Sure they have bad match ups but I've never gone into a game thinking it's over before it's begun.

7 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Well, if we are back here after just 2 years with an entire reboot of the game plus a handful of releases, I'd say that main failure is that XWM does not work as a competitive game.

Nonsense. All competative games have clearly more powerful options and clearly weaker options.

Poe just falls into the latter category.

19 minutes ago, The Penguin UK said:

Nonsense. All competative games have clearly more powerful options and clearly weaker options.

Oh, I agree. But there is some weird illusion floating around here that All Components Should Be Created Equal, and a whole lot of whining when that fails to be true.

I guess I would be less put off if, for example, this thread started with a discussion of what the better components of HoH are, rather than a line-by-line reading of how the game designers got all the points wrong.

And yes, I could just read a different thread, but some of the subtext in this one is interesting.

11 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Oh, I agree. But there is some weird illusion floating around here that All Components Should Be Created Equal, and a whole lot of whining when that fails to be true.

My view is that the complaint is not 'Poe is unbalanced and should be' but more 'I wish Poe was one of the better options, not one of the worse ones.'

In an ideal world, everything is balanced but that's just not possible. 🤷🏼‍♂️

13 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Oh, I agree. But there is some weird illusion floating around here that All Components Should Be Created Equal, and a whole lot of whining when that fails to be true.

I guess I would be less put off if, for example, this thread started with a discussion of what the better components of HoH are, rather than a line-by-line reading of how the game designers got all the points wrong.

And yes, I could just read a different thread, but some of the subtext in this one is interesting.

I did point out the things that were good, as in competitive, and did point out those that were even too well costed.

The fact that most of them are bad or highly costed is not my fault.

11 minutes ago, Mikhs said:

The fact that most of them are bad or highly costed is not my fault.

Luckily, these days, FFG can fix that.

13 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Luckily, these days, FFG can fix that.

Believe me, every points update, I check the same things: Poe Dameron and most of the T-70 (Except Nien), Resistance Transports, Crew and Gunners (except Finn, Rose and Kor Sella) and Trajectory Simulator.

I guess we have a new attempt in 1 month 😎