Skirmish in the Tangle

By sarumanthewhite, in Runewars Battle Reports

Skirmish in the Tangle

The report has both of us playing outside our comfort zone. Me playing Latari and my friend playing Uthuk.

My experience fighting Uthuk is largely with Daqan using my Crossbowmen to shoot Threshers and Ravos before they could get across the board. To that end, I thought of something similar with the Latari using a combination of Scions and Deepwood Archers.

Here, I tried to maximize the firepower of the Deepwood using Hunter’s Guile and Fire Rune. That required Greenwatch Herald and Malcorne’s. Thinking that my archers may need some movement assistance to get out of the way of a rampaging Thresher, I chose EotA. Prince Faolan made the most sense to carry these upgrades as he can activate at I2 and use his Skill to trigger EotA if needed.

Where I struggled a bit was the Scions. I’m used to playing Rune Golems which are slow but can hit. They can also take a hit with 4 armor and a Vitality token from Baron Z. That is not the case with Scions. I wanted them to be speed bumps to tie up opponents while the Deepwood fired away. To maximize this, I wanted to give them Bolo Nets (an armor upgrade) which could be used on I3 to Immobilize a unit. This required them to be 2-tray units rather than a single tray. This forced me to cut the Deepwood from 3x2 to 2x2. Not sure if this is a good idea, but we’ll see… J

Deepwood Archers [30] 2x2
Maegan Cyndewin [10] -
Fire Rune [7] -
Marching Starling [2] -
Hunters Guile [4] -
Deepwood Archers [30] 2x2
Fire Rune [7] -
Greenwatch Herald [3] -
Marching Starling [2] -
Hunters Guile [4] -
Aymhelin Scions [25] 2x1
Bolo Nets [2] -
[Heraldry]
Aymhelin Scions [25] 2x1
Bolo Nets [2] -
[Heraldry]
Prince Faolan [36] 1x1
Malcornes Bequest [6] -
Etharyton of the Ailatar [5]

https://tabletopadmiral.com/runewars/lists/4366/

My opponent brought Ravos and a couple of Threshers but he surprised me with two Viper Legion units. These units can be a bit challenging to use but he built them as support units to spread bane tokens around presumably to help the Threshers and cause general mayhem. Interestingly enough, he brought a Rallying Shrieker which gave him the ability to clear my Immobilize tokens if in range.

Ravos the Everhungry [40] 1x1
Reaping Blade [4] -
Insatiable Hunger [3] -
Viper Legion Archers [33] 2x2
Viper Trapmaster [1] -
Ritual Venom [3] -
Rallying Shrieker [4] -
Aim of the Serpent [2]
Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Scuttling Horror [3] -
Spined Threshers [28] 2x1
Devouring Maws [3] -
Viper Legion Archers [33] 2x2
Bloodfire Witch [5] -
Ritual Venom [3] -
Tactical Shrieker [2] -
Aim of the Serpent [2]

https://tabletopadmiral.com/runewars/lists/4299/

The Deployments and Objectives were chosen from the 2018 OP kit: Column Ambush, Head-to-Head, and Gain Ground for Deployment and Conquest, Up in Flames, and Gain Ground for objectives.

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Uthuk had the bid (3 pts.) and exercised his option to choose the Gain Ground deployment. He wanted a large front and the ability to choose place two pieces of terrain. This also left me a very poor choice of Objectives as the Gain Ground objective effectively let Uthuk place the first two pieces of terrain meaning that I would get to place the most undesirable piece. At the same time, I didn’t want Conquest as my force wasn’t designed to run across the map and Up In Flames ran contrary to my need for Unstable runes to power the Fire Rune.

I ultimately settled on Gain Ground as the least distasteful of the 3 Objectives. At least I was first player on Turn 2… J

The terrain flop was Wildroot Patch, Raider Tent, and Spikes

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Deployment :

Uthuk put the Raider’s Tent in the center of the room per the scenario and then put Wildroot Patch near his side of the table. I put Spikes on the other side so I could hide behind it while shooting.

He wanted to seize the Tent on Turn 1 (presumably) by putting Ravos right across from it. I chose to deploy to his left staying clear of the Wildroot Patch (Cover 1 is very effective). We both filled in after those key deployments. I kept my Scions on each flank with Prince F in the center to leverage EotA.

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Turn 1:

Runes: 2S, 1N, 2U

A fairly uneventful turn as both forces advanced. Ravos took the center but couldn’t advance out of the Raider’s Tent with Insatiable Hunger since we rule that a unit can only enter/exit terrain during its activation (one of the balances that @church14 suggested). The central Thresher group moved as fast as possible to engage one of the Deepwood units while the other Thresher turned a bit.

For my part, I did 2-March with a 1-Shift to ensure the Deepwood were in range for a Turn 2 shot but not within charge range. I had Faolan go late in the turn to reposition one of my units if needed. It turns out that I used him to shift the Scions up a bit. This became critically important for Turn 2

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Latari view of the rampaging Uthuk...

Turn 2:

Runes: 2S, 0N, 4U

The Threshers on the left had a real dilema. Since Prince F could easily use EotA on I2 (with a Turn), the Scions could pin the Threshers. If the Threshers Scuttled to one side, then they would dodge the flank charge this turn, but would bump the Viper Legion and effectively delay the Scions pinning them until Turn 3 when Prince F could do it again. He chose not to Scuttle, so I dialed in a 2-March with Prince F and EotA.

So, the Scions marched into the Threshers flank waiting for I5 to make an attack. It turns out the Threshers did a Reform before I could attack (I used my first I5 activation to shoot Meagan’s Deepwood unit at one of the Viper Legion units). Nevertheless, the Scions had a perfect roll and with their dialed in hit did 10 damage removing one Thresher figure. I’ve never done this type of damage with Scions (it is Maximum after all).

My Deepwood unit took out the back rank of the Vipers while their return fire took out one tray.

On the right flank, the Thresher unit ran forward to impact the Scions while they used their Bolo Nets to pin Ravos for another turn. The Deepwood behind them did 4 damage to the Thresher unit charging the Scions.

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My sneaky move and lucky die rolls against the Uthuk Threshers- Maximum Firepower... :)

Turn 3:

Runes: 1S, 3N, 0U

With unfavorable runes, the Scions were in danger of being chopped into firewood. I had the unit on the right Rally/Armor up while unit engaged with a single Thresher went for an attack. This turned out to be a great move as it removed all the banes preventing the Threshers from a re-roll and preventing limiting the Viper Legion shenanigans. The lack of a re-roll and armor turn out to be a big deal when the Threshers rolled a single hit putting two wounds on the Scions.

On the other flank, the single Thresher rolled a single hit but these Scions weren’t armored giving them two wounds. That’s when he got a very lucky morale card- Loss of Faith. That took a fresh unit down to a single wound remaining…

At I5, the Viper Legion shot the Deepwood near Faolan. They used Ritual Venom and Aim of the Serpent to put 2 Blight on the Deepwood. Their return fire only eliminated only 2 Vipers and the lack of Unstable runes this turn nerfed my Fire Rune.

The other Viper Legion shot and finished off one of the Scions while the Deepwood in the center finished off one of the Threshers.

Prince F moved forward to help the Scions in the center while protecting the undamaged Deepwood unit.

Finally, Ravos came out of the Raider’s Tent (finally) and moved to flank the undamaged Deepwood unit. They were definitely in a bad position.

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Prince F bearing down on the Thresher flank

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It was at this time that the Deepwood began to worry... :(

Turn 4:

Runes: 2S, 0N, 4U

Prince F uses EotA to reposition the Deepwood turning the tables on Ravos. The Scions on the left use their Bolo Nets and Armor up to see if they can hold out for one more turn giving the Threshers an Immobilize token. The Threshers swing on I4 and roll a double miss (no re-rolls, the pictured Panic token was placed in error after their activation last turn)! The Pixies floating around the remaining Scion saved his lift- Yea for me!!!

The other Thresher slides forward after burning off the Immobilize token.

The 4 Unstable runes were great for my Fire Rune, but it allowed Ravos to make a 3-Turning Charge. This was the move of the game and he missed by a fraction of an inch- the Reform from EotA saved their bacon!

Meagan’s Deepwood unit fires off at the Vipers, eliminating them. The fact that the Scion there survived was critical as it allowed them to fire at the Vipers rather than the Threshers.

Finally, the Deepwood unit with Ravos in their crosshairs fired- delivering 4 wounds to Ravos. Their glee was short-lived when Ravos caught up with them using Insatiable Hunger.

The Viper Legion on the right shot the Scions putting a wound on them but they managed to slide into the Raider camp. I just wanted to pin the Vipers for a couple of turns while Faolan finished off the Thresher

It was about now that I wished I had Close Quarters Targeting… L

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Ravos missing a charge by a fraction of an inch...

Turn 5:

Runes: 1S, 2N, 4U

The 4 Unstable Runes gave me a good chance to take out the single Thresher on the left while Prince F could charge the other one in the rear. I was afraid of what Ravos could do to my Deepwood unit.

It played out kind of how I expected. Faolan charged the Thresher doing three wounds. Ravos did 6 damage but he dialed in 2 Morale and rolled 1. He got Flee in Terror and made me run off cancelling my Melee attack for the turn.

The Scion charged out and engaged the flank of the Viper. I just wanted to tie them up for one more turn…

The Thresher engaged with my Scion attacked and whiffed again, even with one re-roll (we forgot to place the Panic token from last turn but caught it on the attack).

The other Thresher hit Faolan for two wounds and healed one from itself using Devouring Maws- who needs re-rolls.

My Deepwood unit finished the single Thresher off with both the ranged attack and the Fire Rune.

The remaining Viper Legion attacked and re-formed to prevent any more shenanigans. Unfortunately, they needed a double hit to finish the Scion off with it’s increased armor.

I used my Malcorne’s at the end of the turn to flip into an additional Stable rune for next turn.

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Ravos in a Deepwood feeding frenzy!

Turn 6:

Runes: 2S, 2N, 2U

Faolan had to kill the Thresher if he wanted a chance to live. Meagan’s archers needed to get some range and reform so they could shoot on turn 7&8. For the Uthuk, I figured just Melee attack all around.

So, Faolan swung on I3 and finished off the Thresher.

Ravos swung on I3 and just about finished off the Archers, their return swing was a miss.

The Scion on the right swings and does 2 damage, not quite getting a tray. The Viper Legion swings back and with it’s re-roll gets the double hit it needs to wipe out the Scion- darn it, I needed on more turn with him.

The remaining Scion and Archers move to reform and get a shot at Ravos.

This was going to be close…

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Turn 7:

Runes: 1S, 3N, 2U

Ravos wipes out the Archers and is then promptly gunned down himself.

The Immobilize token from the Scions pays off preventing the Vipers from moving this turn meaning they had to Shift on Turn 8 to at least contest the center objective.

Faolan shifts into the Raider’s Tent while the remaining Scion stays out of range of the Vipers.

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Turn 8:

Runes: 1S, 2N, 2U

This is it and it’s very quick.

Prince F steps out of the terrain on the other side to prevent being shot by the Vipers.

Meagan’s Deepwood move and slam into the spikes doing three damage and taking a wound on Meagan in the process.

The Vipers shift to the left contacting the Raider’s Tent, contesting it.

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Faolan and the Vipers contesting the Raider’s Tent

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Meagan's Deepwood taking damage to score 30 points!

Final Score:

Uthuk: 45, Latari: 133

Latari wins!

After Action Report:

This game was much closer than the final score suggests. All sorts of inflection points throughout the game. The Ewok trick that let the Scions hit the Threshers in the flank, their max damage roll taking out a Thresher followed by repeatedly bad rolls (by the Threshers), Ravos missing a charge by 2mm, etc.

The Scion move forward on Turn 4 letting them hit the Viper Legion on Turn 5 was critical to control of the objectives. I wasn’t sure if I had spent too many points on the Scions as they were primarily designed to be blockers. In the end, the difference between a 1-tray and 2-tray unit turned out to be huge since both units had 1-tray with 1 wound left for several turns.

Faolan’s maneuverability allowed him to snake through the Archers and hit the Threshers in the rear saving the Archers from a much quicker elimination.

But the real star of the show was EotA in the hands of Faolan. It allows the Latari to counter a lot of the Uthuk movement advantage. I love the idea of tooling Faolan up to do damage with Spirit Sword and Legendary Prowess, but EotA outweighed any benefit those upgrades could have provided.

For the Uthuk, I feel that the Viper Legion were largely ineffective. All the upgrades, and bane shuffling didn’t really amount to much. They just don’t do enough damage. Perhaps they should take Fire Rune instead of all the other upgrades. It would have allowed them to attack after moving and would have been a natural counter to the Latari Fire Runes.

Ravos got trapped in the Raider’s Tent keeping him out of the battle, but had he not gone that way, I would have probably set up different as well.

The other thing we discussed is the Uthuk charging up when I had initiative on Turn 2. I think he should have just taken Turn 1 to move slow and maybe bank an Inspiration token or two. Unfortunately, that just doesn’t seem like a very Uthuk thing to do J

All in all, these lists had their bright spots and their weaknesses for sure. We both had three good units and two weaker units. I think my weaker units overachieved while the design of the Vipers created some limitations which they didn’t really exceed

Regardless, it was a fun, tense game- even more fun since I won… J

Thanks for reading!!!

Edited by sarumanthewhite

I’d like to see the Uthuk list if you have it. I’ve been able to make vipers vomit enough tokens to matter. I want to see if it’s a list building thing or if it was just how the game played out.


You’re right about EoA. No other upgrade Faolan can bring will have a greater effect. Not even close. I could see three times this game where Faolan adjusted a unit to be able to do additional damage. Either by adjusting range so a charge can go off, ranged shots are in range, or rotating a unit to get another in arc. @Jukey uses that Malcorne/EoA setup in particular. It’s an extraordinarily good support unit.

it was good to see Bolo Nets do work. We haven’t had much success with them.

Forgot to include the lists. Both text and link to Tabletop Admiral are now up.

I think the Uthuk list is a little weak. The Viper Legion were built for token shenanigans and it didn’t really do anything to me. He was using his the Panic from the Threshers for the Morale test (which did pay off at least once), but I was more afraid that he was going to stick me with Blight and Immobilize.

The sneaky shift of the Scions by Faolan really changed that game. It gummed up the Threshers and then a lucky set of die rolls tipped the scale. The fact that Faolan can adjust the units position early or late makes it particularly devastating.

Also, our use of your suggestions for entering/exiting and Ravos work very well. It caused Ravos to sit in the center for two turns- normally Insatiable Hunger would have allowed him to walk right out.

Edited by sarumanthewhite
2 hours ago, sarumanthewhite said:

Forgot to include the lists. Both text and link to Tabletop Admiral are now up.

I think the Uthuk list is a little weak. The Viper Legion were built for token shenanigans and it didn’t really do anything to me. He was using his the Panic from the Threshers for the Morale test (which did pay off at least once), but I was more afraid that he was going to stick me with Blight and Immobilize.

The sneaky shift of the Scions by Faolan really changed that game. It gummed up the Threshers and then a lucky set of die rolls tipped the scale. The fact that Faolan can adjust the units position early or late makes it particularly devastating.

Also, our use of your suggestions for entering/exiting and Ravos work very well. It caused Ravos to sit in the center for two turns- normally Insatiable Hunger would have allowed him to walk right out.

viper trapmaster is a clever card to add for an objective like this.

Yeah. Keeping Ravos and threshers from using the terrain as catapults was part of the goal. Nerfing EoA was also a critical goal. As impressive as it was during this game, it’s upper limit is sky high without the community changes. I cannot understate how strong I think that card is even with the changes.

This was a fun read! Thanks for posting!

Thanks for this once again brilliant report!

I would have some questions or remarks.

  • Loss of Faith : don't you find that card a bit too powerfull? It can bring down a unit for a level 2 only morale test
  • Turn 3: "They used Ritual Venom and Aim of the Serpent to put 2 Blight on the Deepwood. Their return fire eliminated only 2 Vipers and the lack of Unstable runes this turn nerfed my Fire Rune" : with 2 blight and no fire rune, I don't understand how the Deepwood archers could eliminate 2 vipers? Unless we can not spend 2 blight tokens at once to cancel 2 dice?
  • Turn 5: wasn't it possible for you to have Prince Faolan charge at I2 (speed 1) and use EoA to disengage the Deepwood from Ravos? Since Price Faolan marches can be modified as charges.

Thanks!

Edited by Meeeuuhhh
1 hour ago, Meeeuuhhh said:

Thanks for this once again brilliant report!

I would have some questions or remarks.

  • Loss of Faith : don't you find that card a bit too powerfull? It can bring down a unit for a level 2 only morale test
  • Turn 3: "They used Ritual Venom and Aim of the Serpent to put 2 Blight on the Deepwood. Their return fire eliminated only 2 Vipers and the lack of Unstable runes this turn nerfed my Fire Rune" : with 2 blight and no fire rune, I don't understand how the Deepwood archers could eliminate 2 vipers? Unless we can not spend 2 blight tokens at once to cancel 2 dice?
  • Turn 5: wasn't it possible for you to have Prince Faolan charge at I2 (speed 1) and use EoA to disengage the Deepwood from Ravos? Since Price Faolan marches can be modified as charges.

Thanks!

Hi @Meeeuuhhh ,

Let me see if I can answer your questions:

1) This morale card can be very powerful at certain times. I’ve had some times where it takes out a single 1 HP figure in a back rack and I’ve had it take out an unwounded Golem. Against a single figure (such as a Hero), it does nothing- literally. If you can believe it, there’s even more dreadful morale cards! It truly is the luck of the draw, but you can slant it in your favor a bit by drawing more cards and triggering higher level morale checks.

2) You can certainly use two Blight tokens on one shot, but the Deepwood had an Inspiration token (I believe) which they used to cancel one of the Blight before shooting...

3) You are right about Prince F on Turn 5, however, we use a rule (created by the Runewars community) that only allows a unit to leave combat on it’s activation (we call this, off-dial movement). Without it, EotA can do precisely what you’ve noted. This is a very powerful ability which can create a very negative play experience for newer players. This modification started with Spined Threshers, their Scuttling Horror ability and the dance they could do entering or exiting terrain. The Entrancing Gaze upgrade with Lord V had some similar abuses (although not into/out of terrain).

Reading some of @Jukey ’s old bat reps, you can see where he used it to rescue a unit from combat. Again, in the hands of skilled players, this has tremendous potential for abuse. @Church14 or @Jukey , feel free to comment here...

Thanks for your thoughtful analysis and questions, I hope other folks enjoyed this as well!

5 hours ago, Meeeuuhhh said:

  • Turn 5: wasn't it possible for you to have Prince Faolan charge at I2 (speed 1) and use EoA to disengage the Deepwood from Ravos? Since Price Faolan marches can be modified as charges.

Your idea was correct. Without the community suggested changes, Faolan makes disengaging trivial. He could do exactly as you suggested.

The community errata: Units cannot enter or exit terrain outside of their activation. Units cannot shift to disengage outside of their activation unless they are engaged with the active unit.

Previously, people had a lot of issues with threshers using scuttling horror and Ravos using insatiable hunger to catapult past terrain. Also, scuttling horror allowing the threshers to disengage when engaged on a flank. All these added up to mechanics other races had a lot of trouble countering in any meaningful way.

EoA without the community errata gives one hero the ability to give all of those abilities to any unit in the army. Then gives more abilities beyond that. Without the community errata, it is the single most powerful card in the game by miles. Nothing compares to it. With the errata, it’s still the single most powerful card in the game, but not by such a huge margin. It probably would need another nerf if the game still had a competitive scene.

1 hour ago, Church14 said:

Your idea was correct. Without the community suggested changes, Faolan makes disengaging trivial. He could do exactly as you suggested.

The community errata: Units cannot enter or exit terrain outside of their activation. Units cannot shift to disengage outside of their activation unless they are engaged with the active unit.

Previously, people had a lot of issues with threshers using scuttling horror and Ravos using insatiable hunger to catapult past terrain. Also, scuttling horror allowing the threshers to disengage when engaged on a flank. All these added up to mechanics other races had a lot of trouble countering in any meaningful way.

EoA without the community errata gives one hero the ability to give all of those abilities to any unit in the army. Then gives more abilities beyond that. Without the community errata, it is the single most powerful card in the game by miles. Nothing compares to it. With the errata, it’s still the single most powerful card in the game, but not by such a huge margin. It probably would need another nerf if the game still had a competitive scene.

I think you’re right about a 2nd nerf with a competitive scene. The real issue is the fact that it can go last-first (kind of like Pryce, since I know you play Armada!). You go late in the turn with Faolan and then early the next turn. You shift a unit into melee where it can then attack later in the same turn. Yuuuuccckkk...

Thanks for your very clear answers! I have to confess now that I have not read all the reports and discussions on rules modification...

I was surprised too that the Vipers in the last round didn't enter the tent.

Is there a summary of all this community errata? Tey seem interesting and balancing the game.

I found this thread but it doesn't seem to address this:

You’re right, the Archers should have entered the Raider’s Tent as part of the shift, but no other action could have been taken and it wouldn’t have affected the outcome as Prince F was touching it as well. Good catch!

The Balance testing that was started early last year faded with interest in the game. You can find the document on Google Drive. I’m going to update it with our discussion here and whatever else folks on Discord want to include. I’ll re-post it here and on Discord for everyone’s benefit...

1 hour ago, Meeeuuhhh said:

Thanks for your very clear answers! I have to confess now that I have not read all the reports and discussions on rules modification...

I was surprised too that the Vipers in the last round didn't enter the tent.

Is there a summary of all this community errata? Tey seem interesting and balancing the game.

I found this thread but it doesn't seem to address this:

There were a lot of efforts to try and tweak cards or figure out a balance package.it was hard to get any consensus. Really, the rule quoted above is the balance package. Seems to be the one that stuck. It addresses the major features of Uthuk that were unbalanced. It addresses EoA. Game balance isn’t perfect, but it is much closer.

Awesome!

I hope I will be able to use it quickly (even if I am more involved in X-Wing these last months).

Thanks every one.