1 hour ago, Khobai said:

thats one of the situations where activating your jedi first is advantageous. so you can kill the unit youre currently engaged with and move into a second unit before it gets the chance to move away.

The problem with that, is that the second unit the Jedi moves into melee with can then just disengage, and now the Jedi is susceptible to getting shot. It still might be the best option for many different reasons, but it's not a guarantee of safety the way that moving into melee with an already activated unit is.

8 minutes ago, Lochlan said:

The problem with that, is that the second unit the Jedi moves into melee with can then just disengage, and now the Jedi is susceptible to getting shot. It still might be the best option for many different reasons, but it's not a guarantee of safety the way that moving into melee with an already activated unit is.

In these situations a standby seems pertinent. Especially if forced to activate a force user early to engage a unit. Since most melee weapons aren't suppressive, if the engaged unit stays to attack in melee, you're safe and you can counter with the standby. If they try to disengage, they've wasted that unit's turn and you can spend the standby to reengage (and with most force users get a free attack after moving back into melee).

The bigger issue against this tactic seems to be other force users as they can push early activated units out of melee exposing them to ranged attacks.

5 hours ago, Lochlan said:

The problem with that, is that the second unit the Jedi moves into melee with can then just disengage, and now the Jedi is susceptible to getting shot. It still might be the best option for many different reasons, but it's not a guarantee of safety the way that moving into melee with an already activated unit is.

Again it depends on the specific situation. Sometimes youre still better off forcing the unit to withdraw and wasting its turn rather than risking getting shot by that same unit if it isnt forced to withdraw. Maybe you can use force push to pull another unit into the melee too. Maybe youre better off retreating behind terrain or into heavy cover. Not every situation is exactly the same.

But it is difficult to 100% protect a jedi. thats why most jedi arnt very competitive in general because theyre high cost and high risk with no guarantee of a return on your points investment. With few notable exceptions jedi are mostly just for funsies.

thats what makes anakin interesting IMO because he can play a more conservative game by supporting his army and lobbing absolutely devastating fire supported saber throws from relative safety. hes not under the same kindve pressure to risk himself in melee to earn his points back like other jedi are. I think anakin can absolutely be competitive just because his fire supported saber throw is so disgusting.

7 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@JediPartisan I think a "pure" support Jedi is unlikely, primarily because lightsabers are such effective weapons. Even before factoring in the point cost for the support keywords (Exemplar, Guardian, etc), the baseline Jedi stuff (5-6 die lightsaber attack with some mixture of Critical, Pierce, and Impact, some "version" of Deflect, red defence die, etc) adds a hefty price tag to the character, and makes them fairly well suited to melee innately.

It’s true, Jedi can be really expensive, but we also haven’t seen a “Consular” type Jedi yet, who were canonically good at using the Force and being support, but not as good at melee. So we could end up with a Jedi that has 4 attack dice, Pierce 1 and Impact 1, and maybe only 4-5 health, but has better support or Force abilities. Keep in mind every Jedi they have added to the game so far (Sith too) would be the “Guardian” or combat specific type Force user, so the Devs could really go in a separate direction for other Jedi. But you are right, even 4 attack dice and Pierce and Impact will drive up the points cost, but we already have seen some support type Force upgrade cards. Adding those to a unit that has some natural Force abilities like Force Healing (which is definitely Cannon now considering the Mandalorian) and you would have a very support oriented Jedi that can go into melee if they absolutely have to, but can keep other expensive Clone or ARC units alive until then. And being in an point expensive army the cost of a support Jedi is relative. I could see a support Jedi being as low as 140 points, and depending on abilities that could be worth it. If they only had 4 attack dice and only 4 or 5 health, but had 2 force slots, a Skill slot and MoTF 1 and maybe Exemplar they could take Force Barrier, and Aggressive/Defensive Stance and Force Reflexes and keep the army alive and would be worth the points as they would be saving 14-16 points per mini saved and with those 2 upgrades alone, they could save 1-3 minis per round.

3 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

It’s true, Jedi can be really expensive, but we also haven’t seen a “Consular” type Jedi yet, who were canonically good at using the Force and being support, but not as good at melee. So we could end up with a Jedi that has 4 attack dice, Pierce 1 and Impact 1, and maybe only 4-5 health, but has better support or Force abilities. Keep in mind every Jedi they have added to the game so far (Sith too) would be the “Guardian” or combat specific type Force user, so the Devs could really go in a separate direction for other Jedi. But you are right, even 4 attack dice and Pierce and Impact will drive up the points cost, but we already have seen some support type Force upgrade cards. Adding those to a unit that has some natural Force abilities like Force Healing (which is definitely Cannon now considering the Mandalorian) and you would have a very support oriented Jedi that can go into melee if they absolutely have to, but can keep other expensive Clone or ARC units alive until then. And being in an point expensive army the cost of a support Jedi is relative. I could see a support Jedi being as low as 140 points, and depending on abilities that could be worth it. If they only had 4 attack dice and only 4 or 5 health, but had 2 force slots, a Skill slot and MoTF 1 and maybe Exemplar they could take Force Barrier, and Aggressive/Defensive Stance and Force Reflexes and keep the army alive and would be worth the points as they would be saving 14-16 points per mini saved and with those 2 upgrades alone, they could save 1-3 minis per round.

This would be a great unit. Maybe later we see an upgrade pack similar to corps upgrade packs but has generic force users instead including lower cost generic commander(s) &/or operatives that fill different roles than combat. Give one a setup ability that allows moving an objective token after deploying forces.

17 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

Keep in mind every Jedi they have added to the game so far (Sith too) would be the “Guardian” or combat specific type Force user, so the Devs could really go in a separate direction for other Jedi.

I’m not sure I’d call Dooku a guardian, but I can see why one might believe that line of thinking. The emperor though? Definitely not a guardian.

@JediPartisan I don't necessarily agree that Palpatine is "combat specific" Force user in canon at least, the implementation here does give him a bit of a combat tilt, but I've seen Pulling the Strings (which in my opinion is a support ability) used on more turns than his attack. Additionally, MoTF 2 seems more appropriate for a "Jedi Consular (which might be unlikely as in new canon they completely withdraw from warfare)," if the focus is on Force powers rather than combat ability I'd expect a Force based attack as opposed to JUST having a Lightsaber. Both of these would push the points up from 140.

I'm of the opinion that we aren't likely to see a generic Jedi (at least not anytime soon), so we're limited to only named Force users. The Jedi that most closely meshes with the idea of a Force based support character is Yoda in my mind (the rest we see in more combat oriented roles), and I can't see him being significantly cheaper than Palpatine.

yoda would suck if he was just a 250 point support character. that would be awful.

hed be worse than palpatine.

1 hour ago, Mokoshkana said:

I’m not sure I’d call Dooku a guardian, but I can see why one might believe that line of thinking. The emperor though? Definitely not a guardian.

1 hour ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@JediPartisan I don't necessarily agree that Palpatine is "combat specific" Force user in canon at least, the implementation here does give him a bit of a combat tilt, but I've seen Pulling the Strings (which in my opinion is a support ability) used on more turns than his attack. Additionally, MoTF 2 seems more appropriate for a "Jedi Consular (which might be unlikely as in new canon they completely withdraw from warfare)," if the focus is on Force powers rather than combat ability I'd expect a Force based attack as opposed to JUST having a Lightsaber. Both of these would push the points up from 140.

I'm of the opinion that we aren't likely to see a generic Jedi (at least not anytime soon), so we're limited to only named Force users. The Jedi that most closely meshes with the idea of a Force based support character is Yoda in my mind (the rest we see in more combat oriented roles), and I can't see him being significantly cheaper than Palpatine.

I think we can all agree that the Emperor is somewhat of an exception. Dooku, I’d definitely call a Saber specialist. Anyone who is a master of a lightsaber style is a combat Jedi (or Sith as the case may be. I may have used the word Guardian as a catch all for combat types, which it kind of is, but if you want to get into semantics, there are also Sentinels and there was another I can’t remember the name of but they were the stealth assassin kind of Jedi (never really seemed Jedi like to me, but I didn’t creat it 🤷‍♀️ ) and each of those had their own combat expertise.

You may be right that we may only get named Jedi. There are a lot to go through at least in a unit release respect, so I’m sure everyone would rather see their favourite Jedi over a generic one. As far as Consular named Jedi, they tend to be masters on the counsel. I think Ki Adi Mundi and Luminara Unduli were Consular Jedi, but I can’t remember and being masters might mean they have more than one expertise.

Personally, id love to see a generic Jedi or an expansion like @codytx2 mentioned in his previous post, but I’m sure they would have to be generic commanders or operatives or at the very least Special Forces to prevent an overpowered list.

@JediPartisan Something to remember is that most of the "classes" of Jedi from KotR/KotR2/TOR are no longer canon, and the ones that still exist have changed. Jedi Shadows are now just legends, as are Jedi Sentinel, and Consulars have changed to being removed from combat. Legion seems to be keeping to canon adjacent, as opposed to the older systems which are still using a fair amount of characters and ships from Legends.

40 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

@JediPartisan Something to remember is that most of the "classes" of Jedi from KotR/KotR2/TOR are no longer canon, and the ones that still exist have changed. Jedi Shadows are now just legends, as are Jedi Sentinel, and Consulars have changed to being removed from combat. Legion seems to be keeping to canon adjacent, as opposed to the older systems which are still using a fair amount of characters and ships from Legends.

Yeah, a lot of that stuff was from role playing games. It’s amazing how much that old west end rpg contributed to Star Wars lore, but there really wasn’t much before that and Disney is... well Disney and no matter if anyone liked the sequels, I think most people would agree things have been mismanaged. I think things are starting to look up though with Favreau and Filloni not to mention Lucas actually on set to contribute, so there’s no telling where things might go.

For now, the last I heard was that Disney has actually brought back the Consular Jedi, but they’re more like politicians than Force users, but you are right almost all of that EU stuff is out... that’s until they decide to bring it back piecemeal.

2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Yeah, a lot of that stuff was from role playing games. It’s amazing how much that old west end rpg contributed to Star Wars lore, but there really wasn’t much before that and Disney is... well Disney and no matter if anyone liked the sequels, I think most people would agree things have been mismanaged. I think things are starting to look up though with Favreau and Filloni not to mention Lucas actually on set to contribute, so there’s no telling where things might go.

For now, the last I heard was that Disney has actually brought back the Consular Jedi, but they’re more like politicians than Force users, but you are right almost all of that EU stuff is out... that’s until they decide to bring it back piecemeal.

Agreed, and I can't really blame them for wanting to control the canon better than Lucas did (approve everything, keep track of nothing!). Even if we don't agree with elements of that canon, or with stuff that was removed, in some ways it is less jumbled than it used to be.
I do appreciate that they tend to bring things back into canon rather than coming up with something/one new to fill the same role when it makes sense.

15 hours ago, Khobai said:

On the contrary, youre the one thats lacking creativity if youre so close minded you cant envision opportunities to use upgrades like defensive stance.

15 hours ago, Khobai said:

youre also lacking creativity if you cant think of any situations where your jedi might need to activate first.

I never said, there are no opportunities for defensive stance and I even didn't say that you can never activate your jedi first. I simply objected to a statement I found rather " locked into a rigid way of thinking"

On 10/25/2020 at 8:59 PM, Khobai said:

Because once you get into melee youre going to do an attack action and a dodge action every turn.

A least one person does definitely not do that.

16 hours ago, Khobai said:

again whether or not you activate your jedi first or last varies depending on the situation. similarly there are always opportunities to use dodge actions, especially with characters that have charge or relentless.

defensive stance will absolutely be a staple upgrade for jedi with training slots, mainly because the other training upgrades arnt very good.

Sure there are situations where you need to go early and sometimes a dodge action can be helpful. But Defensive stance is nowhere near stapled to jedi with trianing slots. Not taking an upgrade is always an option to save points for more activations or a bid. I guess we can sum it up with us having very different play styles

again defensive stance is only 5 points... nobody is not going to take it just to save 5 points.

you seem to have some highly irrational dislike of it just because its not readily usable every turn.

it doesnt need to be readily usable every turn. if your 200 point jedi has 6 wounds, each wound is worth roughly 33 points, so just getting one good use out of defensive stance per game means its paid for itself many times over.

for 5 points it absolutely will be stapled to every jedi with a training slot. what other training upgrade gives you that kindve value? and you should absolutely be able to use it at least once per game.

people pay way more for medical droids to heal damage, so why wouldnt people pay way less to prevent damage in the first place? thats common sense.

1 hour ago, Khobai said:

again defensive stance is only 5 points... nobody is not going to take it just to save 5 points.

you seem to have some highly irrational dislike of it just because its not readily usable every turn.

it doesnt need to be readily usable every turn. if your 200 point jedi has 6 wounds, each wound is worth roughly 33 points, so just getting one good use out of defensive stance per game means its paid for itself many times over.

for 5 points it absolutely will be stapled to every jedi with a training slot. what other training upgrade gives you that kindve value? and you should absolutely be able to use it at least once per game.

people pay way more for medical droids to heal damage, so why wouldnt people pay way less to prevent damage in the first place? thats common sense.

you surely seem to read a lot into my posts that I neither wrote nor meant. I do not dislike the upgrade and I see some value. I also see the downsides (not being able to spend aims can be a nuisance for Obi-Wans 1-pip for example).

What I do is objecting to generalizing claims - like " once you get into melee youre going to do an attack action and a dodge action every turn." and " for 5 points it absolutely will be stapled to every jedi with a training slot" because I truely believe that this is not the case (and I think I argued my point enough).

I will no longer engage in this pointless conversation. But maybe I'll have fun in a few months when we see the next successful lists and I'll point out all the Jedis that weren't trained in defensive stance 😉